Tourer year identification and engine questions
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Tourer year identification and engine questions
I’ve got a model t project I’ve bought in bits believed to be a 1919 tourer, the engine that has been reconditioned many years ago has no provision for the generator but is stamped as November 1919.
The transmission cover has provision for a starter and is stamped November 1919 as well.would this be correct as starters were optional for open cars? I read that all engines after april 1919 were the new style.
Also how can t tell if the chassis and body are in fact 1919?
Reguards Luke
Waikino new zealand
-
- Posts: 2345
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
- First Name: Dave
- Last Name: Hanlon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Touring car
- Location: NE Ohio
- MTFCA Number: 50191
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
The casting date 11-19 should be a 1920 year model, the engine number does not match and appears like the first digit is a C over top of a 5 ?
Possibly a replacement engine for yours or another car.
Correct block for a starter car...
Possibly a replacement engine for yours or another car.
Correct block for a starter car...
-
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm
- First Name: Jeff
- Last Name: Humble
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Canadian built coupe, 1924 TT C-cab, survivor 1924 roadster
- Location: Charlevoix, Mi
- MTFCA Number: 28034
- Board Member Since: 2006
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
C in front of the serial number indicates Canadian manufacture, 226k would be November 1919.
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Ok so even tho the block doesn’t have the provision I’m the casting for a generator those blocks were still used on cars with a starter? Or is it a non starter engine? I realise with the transmission cover a starter can still be fitted but no generator to charge the battery!
And were Canada a bit behind as I thort those blocks were discontinued earlier in 1919.
And were Canada a bit behind as I thort those blocks were discontinued earlier in 1919.
-
- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Luke, the engine number and casting dates are consistent with an early 1920 Canadian produced car. The only inconsistency is the lack of mounting for the generator. That is an anomaly. I can understand the transmission cover being a starter type as these became the standard in 1919.There should be blanking plates over the two mounting holes. Usually, when the starter equipment was not fitted, there was also a cast blanking piece to cover the spot where the generator was mounted, on blocks which were cast to receive same. Yours does not fit the programe!
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
-
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm
- First Name: Jeff
- Last Name: Humble
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Canadian built coupe, 1924 TT C-cab, survivor 1924 roadster
- Location: Charlevoix, Mi
- MTFCA Number: 28034
- Board Member Since: 2006
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Please post a picture of the location the generator would go. I suspect you have a blanking plate that you can swap out for a generator mount, and there's a ring gear on the flywheel.
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Ok I thought it was a bit strange ,I’ll need to track down a timing cover as the ones I have at to fit generator blocks. I also have some later blocks but they would need reconditioning.
The car it’s self could be made up from parts from other years,is there a photo gallery or the likes that show the tell tail signs for of identitying different years?
The car it’s self could be made up from parts from other years,is there a photo gallery or the likes that show the tell tail signs for of identitying different years?
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
I’ll take some more pictures ant post them soon
-
- Posts: 6463
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
- Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
- MTFCA Number: 16175
- MTFCI Number: 14758
- Board Member Since: 2007
- Contact:
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
This will date the frame.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
-
- Posts: 1297
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: van Ekeren
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
- Location: Rosedale Vic Australia
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
The first of the starter T's at our end of the world had a bolt on belt driven generator.
-
- Posts: 3638
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
I think the biggest part of the problem here is that Canadian, and US production differed quite a bit, and the differences are still being sorted out. On many details, Canadian production lead the way, on others, US production was ahead. I don't know just when the "no generator" blocks ceased in Canada. In the US, no starter blocks were used on no starter cars (open cars or TT trucks only!) only through mid to late 1919 model year. After that, for about one year only, most but not all non starter engines used the earlier no starter timing gear cover with a special cast side cover for the big timing gear. The hogshead for awhile may have been the earlier non starter type or the later starter type with block-off plates. From some time in 1920 till the end of production, open non starter cars used the same blocks and hogsheads as all other Ts including the generator mount casting and front cover, but with simple block-off plates where the starter and generator were supposed to mount.
Canadian cars were different. Because of many being right hand driven, they had a generator mounted on the left side of the engine as Frank v E says, and shows the picture of. I am not sure how long that generator was used, but it wasn't very long. The problem with the generator and right hand steering brackets was sorted out, and Canadian cars got the same generator as the US cars used. Regardless, I suspect (but don't really know for sure?) that Canadian production may have used the true no generator block a bit longer than US production did.
I believe that Russ Furstnow was working on the judging standards for Canadian Ts last year. He may still be working on it. Your car/engine could maybe be an interesting data point for that effort?
1919 was an interesting transitional year for the model T, US or Canadian. I am not quite certain, but I think 1919 was the last year for Canadian Ts to have the straight windshield and "two-man" top. Canadian Ts lead the way for a slanted windshield and "one-man" top (easier for one man to put up or down than the "two-man" version) I think beginning in 1920. US model Ts didn't get those features until 1923 models.
It should make an interesting model T !
Canadian cars were different. Because of many being right hand driven, they had a generator mounted on the left side of the engine as Frank v E says, and shows the picture of. I am not sure how long that generator was used, but it wasn't very long. The problem with the generator and right hand steering brackets was sorted out, and Canadian cars got the same generator as the US cars used. Regardless, I suspect (but don't really know for sure?) that Canadian production may have used the true no generator block a bit longer than US production did.
I believe that Russ Furstnow was working on the judging standards for Canadian Ts last year. He may still be working on it. Your car/engine could maybe be an interesting data point for that effort?
1919 was an interesting transitional year for the model T, US or Canadian. I am not quite certain, but I think 1919 was the last year for Canadian Ts to have the straight windshield and "two-man" top. Canadian Ts lead the way for a slanted windshield and "one-man" top (easier for one man to put up or down than the "two-man" version) I think beginning in 1920. US model Ts didn't get those features until 1923 models.
It should make an interesting model T !
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
-
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:28 pm
- First Name: Glen
- Last Name: McConachie
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: A few 1926 - 27 Tudors and coupes
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Hi Luke
Have you been in contact with some of the 'local' t guys?
There are a few in the Waikato that may be able to assist if you are trying to piece parts together.
I'm a bit far away but can ask around if needed
Regards
Glen Mcconachie
Dunedin
New zealand
Have you been in contact with some of the 'local' t guys?
There are a few in the Waikato that may be able to assist if you are trying to piece parts together.
I'm a bit far away but can ask around if needed
Regards
Glen Mcconachie
Dunedin
New zealand
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
No I haven’t but that’s a good idea.
It looks like my chassis is a 1923 not a 1919 but that’s fine with me.
Thanks to everyone who replied your input and info is greatly appreciated, it really is good being signed up to this forum.
It looks like my chassis is a 1923 not a 1919 but that’s fine with me.
Thanks to everyone who replied your input and info is greatly appreciated, it really is good being signed up to this forum.
-
- Posts: 2345
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
- First Name: Dave
- Last Name: Hanlon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Touring car
- Location: NE Ohio
- MTFCA Number: 50191
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
I still say that “C” looks like it was stamped over a “5”...
-
Topic author - Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
- First Name: Luke
- Last Name: Davies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 tourer
- Location: New zealand
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Yea It definitely looks as though it’s stamped over another number! I’ll take another photo up real close
-
- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Luke, the last of the chassis with the forged running board supports were on 1921 models here in Australia, so yours having the pressed steel one piece style is at least 1922.
Re the engine number, Canadian engine numbers all have the C prefix. your letter C is smaller than the numbers, which is not usually the case. If that smaller C is stamped over a 5, the original number then did not have a C prefix, so may be a USA engine. If that is the case, such a US number would be way earlier than the casting date would indicate. The plot thickens!
Allan from down under.
Re the engine number, Canadian engine numbers all have the C prefix. your letter C is smaller than the numbers, which is not usually the case. If that smaller C is stamped over a 5, the original number then did not have a C prefix, so may be a USA engine. If that is the case, such a US number would be way earlier than the casting date would indicate. The plot thickens!
Allan from down under.
-
- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
My apologies. If the block is USA production, it would be around August 1921. I was thinking it would be a 6 digit number, rather than 7.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
-
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:26 am
- First Name: K
- Last Name: Mowle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Ames Model 814 Speedster, Peerless barn find Speedster
- Location: Bruce County, ON
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
Included are photos of a Made in Canada block SN C217129.
Note this is the later style casting Part number 3000C cast 9-2-19 two months before the New Zealand block.
So, chances are for the Right Control motors with the belt driven generator Ford of Canada used the non-starter cylinder Part number 3000B and aforementioned starter type block for the Left control cars.
A close look at the photos of the belt drive motors the bolts match the early block.
By chance is there any examples of later Made in Canada engines with non-starter castings? 1920?
These would only exist in export Commonwealth countries. With anticipation of the Right Hand drive provinces changing to Left hand drive Ford of Canada didn't bother supplying cars with right hand drive starting around 1918/1919.
Also around 1917 Dominion Forge and Stamping started to make frames for Ford of Canada. The two side rails were punched to accept left or right hand controls. So, these Canadian frames were different than those used up north in Detroit. Ford of Canada purchased the sheet metal and stamping factory from Dominion Forge & Stamping in 1919.
thanks
Kevin.
Note this is the later style casting Part number 3000C cast 9-2-19 two months before the New Zealand block.
So, chances are for the Right Control motors with the belt driven generator Ford of Canada used the non-starter cylinder Part number 3000B and aforementioned starter type block for the Left control cars.
A close look at the photos of the belt drive motors the bolts match the early block.
By chance is there any examples of later Made in Canada engines with non-starter castings? 1920?
These would only exist in export Commonwealth countries. With anticipation of the Right Hand drive provinces changing to Left hand drive Ford of Canada didn't bother supplying cars with right hand drive starting around 1918/1919.
Also around 1917 Dominion Forge and Stamping started to make frames for Ford of Canada. The two side rails were punched to accept left or right hand controls. So, these Canadian frames were different than those used up north in Detroit. Ford of Canada purchased the sheet metal and stamping factory from Dominion Forge & Stamping in 1919.
thanks
Kevin.
-
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:26 am
- First Name: K
- Last Name: Mowle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Ames Model 814 Speedster, Peerless barn find Speedster
- Location: Bruce County, ON
Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions
trying the photos again