'16 Centerdoor restore...

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perry kete
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:51 pm

Mr. Seth, have you taken a new lease on life
OK Slacker... Aren't you done yet? A one armed monkey would have had that much progress by now! NO Thanksgiving turkey for you until you're done with that car!

How's that Don :lol: :lol:

Beautiful work as always. I'm glad you paid attention in my class.
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


Joseph A Stearns
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Joseph A Stearns » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:17 pm

Don that RAD is beautiful—is it gold? You are making great progress and doing things right. Have fun!!!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:25 pm

Thanks for the support guys !! I'm not that fast, I just have no life outside the shop. Mr. Seth you are back in the saddle. That's a good thing. :D :D :D

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ewdysar
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by ewdysar » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:57 pm

Joseph a stearns wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:17 pm
Don that RAD is beautiful—is it gold? You are making great progress and doing things right. Have fun!!!

For the price, one might think that it should be. But there’s nothing quite like getting a new Brassworks radiator mounted for the first time.

Keep crankin’
Eric


J Sundstrom
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by J Sundstrom » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:47 pm

Your project is really moving along. That radiator I’m sure cost a pretty penny but looks great!

This radiator was dug up on a family members farm in the 70’s.
Using a backhoe to run septic field and they found it.
Someone had apparently junked and buried the car Many years ago. Family member has long since sold farm. Will make for a nice wall hanger though.
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Dallas Landers
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:06 pm

Don, at the speed you work, you will need a new project by Christmas ! I love to watch these projects come together. I have not been in the shop for some time so Im getting my fix here. :ugeek:


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:40 pm

Many thanks to you guys. I do tend to attack these projects but this one is a bit different. Mechanically there isn't much that needs to be done. I tore the front end apart only to replace one bushing. I cracked the rear end open to see fresh guts everywhere. The rear-end hasn't any slack anywhere. The engine I had running briefly and it sounded good and throttle response was really pretty good for having a cobbled up wiring system and old plugs, commutator and plug wires. After doing a compression check and peaking into the bands I decided to go with it. So that helps a lot and after cleaning everything and painting I just today put the engine back on the chassis. My direction now is to get to the wood. It will take a ton of work to figure it all out but it will get done. My thoughts are to work off the doors because they still have the original wood and will provide a direction for the B and C pillars. Should be a neat challenge to start to put the body together. Hope all you friends have a great Thanksgiving and can enjoy the true meaning with warmth and safety. :)


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:13 am

Some pictures of a said original 1915 Centerdoor. Comments?
Attachments
15d.jpg
15c.jpg
15b.jpg
15a.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:13 am

YEEHAA !! I got my wood kit today....Lets ROLL !!
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Dallas Landers
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:24 pm

Is that ash Don? You can turn pine into ash with a little fire! :P
Let the chips fly!

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Mark Nunn
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Mark Nunn » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:50 pm

Don, whatever you do, don't use those saws hanging on the wall to make parts. It looked like your car's previous owner used them. ;)


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:18 pm

Dallas, yes its all nice clear ash. I was able to hand pick it which makes all the difference in the world. Mostly 5/4" but I also picked up some 6/4" and 3/4 ". I will end up laminating the thicker pieces but for me its a easier way to go.



Mark, no guarantees on that ! Any port in a storm, ya know? :D


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:08 pm

Beautiful wood kit! Some assembly required.

The original '15 center-door in the photos appears to be a real early '15. I would be interested to know more about that car. I believe that production of the true '15 center-door sedan ended fairly early in 1915. I have heard but do not know, production ended about February or March of 1915. The cars were quite expensive, and sales were slow. The warehouse was full, so Henry lowered the price (losing money on every car at that point) and offered incentives to salesmen to get the cars sold. Under the circumstances, it is surprising that Henry continued the basic design in 1916 at all. But Henry wanted his foot in that door. He knew that enclosed cars would soon become more wanted, and he wanted people to want their closed car to be a Ford!
For 1916, Ford altered the design in ways that made the car appear the same, but made it cheaper to produce. The true '15 had special rear fenders, and I have read the side aprons and a few other parts were unique to the c-d also. These were changed to use the same pieces as all the other Ts. The true "15 body was a carriage-built body offered by a body company that had initially been offered to other auto manufacturers as well as Ford. Although Ford's order was altered slightly to fit the Ford, the true '15 was still the carriage-built body. The upholstery was as elegant as any mid-size automobile's top of the line car was. The body panels were hand made at considerable time and expense. For 1916, the upholstery and body panels were simplified to reduce time for construction. Although it looks very similar, the '16 was a totally different car.

The photos posted above show what remains of the elegant '15 interior. If one wishes to see better pictures (although black and white photos) of what the '15 c-d interior was like, look in either of Bruce McCalley's two picture books ("The Car That Changed the World" (Bbbb) pages 202 to 207, and "From Here to Obscurity" (written in conjunction with Ray Miller) pages 155 to 160). The picture above showing the driver's seat, click to the enlargeable version, and zoom in closer. Notice that there is "stuff" under that driver's seat. While not a great photo for details, one can clearly see that there is "stuff" where the gasoline tank is on most later center-door sedans. Some years back,a good friend of mine had a Canadian built '16 center-door sedan. How different was it because it was Canadian? We never really knew exactly. It had things like fork mounted headlamps that Canadian cars had into 1916, and Robertson screws. That particular c-d also had the gasoline tank under the rear seat from new! Was it only the Canadian cars? Or did some early U.S. 1916 c-d cars also have gasoline tanks under the rear seat? We may never know the answer to that one. Other than the gasoline tank, his c-d sedan was basically the same body as the '16 to '18 U. S. c-d body.

The photos above are interesting in the study of model Ts, brass era cars in general, and center-door sedans in particular. However, they won't help a lot in the restoration of an early '16 (late brass era) T center-door sedan. It is amazing how much they do look alike. Yet almost nothing other than chassis, running gear, and front fenders are the same between the "true '15" and the '16 center-door sedans.

Wonderful stuff! Thank you Don B for taking us along on the journey.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:31 am

Amazing history lesson Wayne. I'm continuedly impressed with your knowledge and appreciate you sharing it. This is what makes this hobby so enjoyable.. Thank you !


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:18 pm

My Amish buddies stopped in to see the project. So far they seemed to approve of my methods. Starting to work on the upside of things. I got the "C" pillars roughed in. So far, so good. ;) ;)
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IMG_20191203_121627997.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:40 pm

Wow, I received this in the mail today. Dan Killicut found it while doing some rummage revival. Thought I'd like it for the new project and sent it to me. What a awesome gesture from a good hearted man !! Thanks Dan !
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IMG_20191206_132506223.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:49 pm

Tough rough ~ No good patterns make for a heck of a lot of trips to the band saw. :|
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:59 pm

Golly you work fast! I know most of that is just roughed in, and that some (if not all?) may even have to be cut from scratch again (not just re-trimmed). I like the way you clamp the various posts to get the fit right and hold their positions. It certainly helps in getting the dimensions right for the connecting pieces. I very much admire someone that can take a sedan with little to no patterns, and build it to proper perfection! I have always wanted to do that with a sedan of some sort. I have re-wooded a couple original speedster bodies, and more recently my '15 runabout, but they were simple by comparison. I always enjoyed the process, and would like to tackle something more challenging. However, at this point, I doubt I will ever be able to.
The '16 c-d is looking much better with each new post.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:57 am

This is all to try and make patterns. It's not going so well. I also have a question about the "A" pillars. The top of the "A" pillars appear to be wider than at the cowl, can anyone confirm this? I've looked at several pictures of said to be '16's and some look wider and some don't.....another mystery I suppose. Happy holidays everyone !
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perry kete
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:24 am

The picture of the front end looks very similar to the front of a '22 Coupe. I wonder if those patterns would be helpful?
'22 Model T Ford Coupe after restoration 3.JPG
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:29 am

Mr Perrykette on my '22 c-door the pillars are same dimension from the cowl on up. But this prior Woodmaster traced the outline on these mighty fine pillars he chewed with his titanium teeth which shows a slight widening toward the top. I'm confused~ :?


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:34 pm

Starting to get somewhere.....still all in the rough stage.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:20 pm

ROUGH STAGE? The wood you took out was ROUGH STAGE !
Looking great Don. Your progress is amazing.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:03 pm

Thank you Dallas, (sorry I was replying to Landry on Facebook and when I pulled this up cerebral gastritis struck). I am having a heck of a time fitting the rear window panel. That panel seems to angle back at the top. My '22 C-door the panel was straight up and down. I hope someone can enlighten me on just how much angle the rear window panel should have... :?
Last edited by fordorgalore on Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Ok, I think I have got it close now. I had to lean the rear window panel out a bit so the body parts would fit. Also had to spread the tops of the pillars outward. It seems to come together that way. Keep I mind I am working without patterns and its doing it the hard way. Fun STUFF !! ;)
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by CudaMan » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:03 pm

Great work! Maybe I missed it, was a consensus reached on what model year this car is?
Mark Strange
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1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:29 pm

Hi Mark, yes it is a '15-16. In other words a very early '16 with a mix of '15 parts. It has some real differences from a late '16 like the mag switch is bakelite which they discontinued in the spring of '16 and went to making them out of steel. There is no dash. The windshield has handles not knobs. The coil box has a angled "lunch box" latch. No battery switch on the ignition so it was mag start only. And a few things I missed. Mike Husted was gracious enough to call and we spent about two hours dating the ole gal. He even sent me all the documentation so I could prove to others is was a 15-16. I thought I could use my '22 C-door to get patterns or dimensions for this one.....nope, not even close. Just more of Henry looking down and chuckling... ;)


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Lessumner » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:51 am

OUTSTANDING DON !!!!
Les


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:50 am

Thanks Les, today I was trying to fine tune the drivers door. I had to lengthen the B and C pillar and move some joint mounts. Now its finally about where I want it in the end. Ya just have to clamp down on some things !! ;)
Attachments
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IMG_20191215_114227729.jpg


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:47 pm

Most IMpressive!! Folks, THAT is how the MASTER does it!
All this is just to make the patterns so he can cut the real thing correctly!

Looking so very good Don B, so VERY good!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:49 pm

Gheez thanks Wayne. I had a pretty good day today and after adding some length to the "B and C" pillars the darn thing lined up rather nicely. The rear panel cross brace was a bugger also. The thing swoops up and curves to the rear window supports all the while tilting down. Those master woodworkers of days past were absolute genius'. I'm going by the premise that the rear cross brace was spread evenly along the rear tub and rear window panel. I have no real information about that piece, just assuming. Feel free to correct me on anything you see that is wrong. Nothing at this point is fastened and any input would be welcome.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:02 pm

Don

am really enjoying this. When I did my car, I didn't make the speedy headway you did...I spent an awful lot of time on some of the more complicated pieces trying to figure out HOW it was done and done quickly. There were lots of pieces that I could work out with labor and effort, but was tormented by how it must have been done speedily.

One of the big factors I found was that often, once say, a bandsaw table was tilted at just the right angle, a long sweeping cut could be made, and then, the part laid back into it's mate (scrap piece) and then run through the bandsaw again, at perhaps a different angle. One long curved piece with seemingly complex angles all done in only two steps.

I very much understand the effort it takes to do these things and am impressed by your fit/finish and speed that you execute...very impressive!

And a big "thank you" for documenting this for your growing legion of fans!
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:32 pm

Thank you so much Scott ! I've spent most of my adult life working on wood boats of significate length and most with dihedral double planked hulls.
The wood work has always generated a challenge that I strangely enjoyed. These old cars have become my scaled down method of feeding that need. I just find it strange that more information or documentation of design isn't readily available. But, maybe that's the challenge? Thank you again.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:30 am

Soon to be an "A" pillar of the model t world. :roll:
Attachments
IMG_20191216_112709457.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:08 am

Epic fail, I made two identical "A" pillars. The drivers side fits the metal seam rather nicely, the passenger side falls short. I can't figure out how this can be but it is. Back to the epoxy ! :o
Attachments
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IMG_20191218_081440635.jpg
IMG_20191218_081430306.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:15 pm

Wayne Sheldon, have you ever seen anything like this? Jon Lind sent it to me out of the goodness of his heart. Humbled again.... :shock:
Attachments
Spark Intensifier
Spark Intensifier
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:59 pm

Its from Missouri, show me! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:34 pm

Ah, the wonderful world of snake oil! Many similar such "spark intensifiers" have been marketed in the past century plus. I do recall seeing some in I think identical boxes at swap meets a few times, and I think pictured once before on this forum. Several methods of intensifying the spark have been used over the years. And, yes, to some extent they may (some of them?) sort of work. However, all the laws of physics and electrical theory still apply. Hotter spark in one way or another does mean more power drawn.
I don't know which method of intensifying the spark that particular product uses? But I do have an idea of it. There is an old mechanics trick. I have actually used it myself a couple times. If you have an engine that is burning a bit too much oil, especially if on one or two cylinders for some maybe unknown reason, and fouling the spark plug often? With the engine running, and using a good pair of pliers that have well insulated handles. Carefully pull the offending plug's wire off the plug, then carefully hold the end of the wire within about a quarter inch of the connection on the top of the plug. (Hanging onto the running wire is of course why one should carefully use well insulated pliers!) Move the end of the wire close enough that you can see the spark jumping across to the plug. Then widen the gap and note how the spark gets bigger and brighter. Hold it nice and hot for a few seconds. Forcing the system to jump two gaps (one in the plug inside the cylinder, one held by your pliers), causes the spark to be much hotter. On a cylinder with a fouled plug, not always, but very often, will burn off the oil accumulation on the electrodes and clear the foul (for awhile).
The problem with this, goes right back to those lovely laws of physics. The hotter spark also tries to burn your points (wherever they are), and stresses the coil windings which were of course designed for the anticipated power load. Running a spark that way for very long will usually result in failure of the points, and/or coil.
Snake oil salesmen of course try to convince people that the hotter spark will result in more power, and better fuel economy. And, it is true to some extent. A weak spark WILL result in less power, and more wasted fuel due to misfires. But this is where the mathematical laws of diminishing returns comes into play. Once the spark gets to its optimum efficiency, no added power or burn will ignite the fuel better or faster. It will only burn out the ignition system faster (maybe even to the point of instant meltdown).
Some years back I saw an original set of something similar to this. Made in the '50s based upon the picture of the car on the box. They put the added spark gap inside a glass tube and proudly proclaimed that you "could see the hotter spark improving your performance!"

I think boxes and the devices like these make great display items. They are such an interesting item from the past. And a reminder that not all advertisers are looking out for your best interests.


Your "epic fail" made me chuckle. I think all of us have done something like that a few times. I recall one time I was making something that required a mirror image two pieces. Somehow, in my brain, I "double reversed" one of the pieces. Boy did I feel dumb.

Pillars are looking good though!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:46 pm

Well how neat is that! Thank you Wayne you always have the answers. Just an update today I received a call from New Jersey. It was the fella that asked me to make "A" pillars for his 1920 Centerdoor. He had sent me his originals for a pattern and between the old battered pieces I was able to duplicate two spanking new ones for him. He was very happy with them and he is sending me the originals back so I have better patterns for the '16. The cowl line up isn't usable but from the base to the cowl line should help me a lot with the '16. Just more proof that good people are alive and well, just not noticed like the rest. Merry Christmas !!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:24 pm

Oh, I certainly do not have ALL the answers. I do wish I did. I just have a silly quirk in my memory that recalls a tremendous amount of useless information. Unfortunately, I cannot always recall what I want, when I want it. (That actually gets quite annoying at times!) And I still kep trying to learn more.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:53 pm

Wayne you are under rating yourself. I came to this forum about 9 years ago without a clue about what I had gotten myself into. The '27 Fordor I picked up was my first attempt to restore a car. I have learned more in the last 9 years and thru 11 full restorations than I can find words to explain. Good folks like yourself have guided, taught and corrected me all along the way. Its been a very fulfilling experience and history lesson that can't be found anywhere else. There are many, many hobbyist that are indebted to you in ways you will never know. I can only say "thanks".

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:01 pm

Are you still milking that restoration job? It should be on the road by now! :lol:

Very nice I look forward to a video of you running it down the road.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:15 pm

Oh the pressure. Ya know Mr Perry Kete (if that is your REAL name? ) you are more than welcome to come up and lend a hand. Bring your long undies ….oh and some M&M's.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:26 pm

And speaking of all those wonderful people that used to post on this forum. Too many we miss to name because they are gone. But what ever happened to that Denny Seth fellow? I used to enjoy his posts! :)

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:33 pm

Wayne

I think he was eaten by a giant perry kete! :o
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:36 pm

I heard that he has gone underground. Something to do with his mother-in-law....


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Allan » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:41 pm

What is Perry going to do with his moter-in-law underground? Are they contemplating mining opals? At least it would get them out of the heat. We are in the fourth day of a 5 day 110 degree hot spell.
Allan from down under.

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:41 pm

It is currently 15* here in northeast Ohio USA and snowing.

I just got back from the store from buying M&M's but the bag was empty by the time I pulled into my driveway! :shock:

The Mother-in- Law is underground somewhere in my back yard but I'm not telling where :evil:
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:22 am

Keep in mind, nothing is fastened here. I'm trying to do this from scratch. So yes, it looks uneven, it doesn't look square. If you have a early '16 and you see that I have it wrong please let me know.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:57 am

Don, wil you paint theclamps or finish them clear ? :D
No, really coming along nice!!!

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Bob McDaniel » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:25 pm

I can picture you sitting on the milk crate making motor sounds while you pretend to drive! Looking real good so far from here.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:53 am

LOL, You ain't wrong Bob. This morning I decided to make the dash for the 103 yr old dashless gal. Seems to be going ok. The windshield lines up good and the cowl is in a better mood today.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:16 pm

Looking pretty good!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:23 pm

Thanks Wayne, it is starting to feel like I am getting somewhere with it. Today I made the trim line cross boards for the front driver and passenger side. Still in need of any information about the carriage if anyone can help? Also received a pair of "A" pillars for a 1919 Centerdoor originals. Was hoping to duplicate the bottom half. Not even close the size of the 1916 pillars, I would say they are about 1/3 smaller in every respect.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:59 pm

It looks like it will be better than new!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:48 pm

Wayne do you see anything I have wrong? I'm using the wood I took out for reference and also by my '22 C-door and how it was wooded. Merry Christmas my friend !!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:05 pm

Fitting the windows and leaving about 1/4" for the weather-stripping. I hope to have them snug enough that they don't rattle but loose enough for a struggle free operation.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:07 pm

Boy that is beautiful work … Who's doing that for you? :lol:
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:56 pm

The wife...


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:37 am

Starting to think about the top rails. I thought I would check to see if the top of the car is square. I was pleasantly surprised that it was this close. I must be having a better Christmas eve than I thought. :D Still have some tweaking to do.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:49 am

Your attension to detail may have something to do with that Don. What a string of great photos :D


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:11 am

Thank you Dallas, and Merry Christmas to you and yours. I'm trying to get this thing somewhat right. I just wish there were others that actually know how this car was put together. I'm on Facebook and part of a half dozen vintage car groups and not one person has come up with any solid info on it. It's probably a good thing, bad thing. Good in the thought my approach isn't far off and bad because there is no clear direction on it. So I will keep hammering at it and see what comes of it.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:23 am

I kind of know that feeling working on the 8in1 bed on my TT. No info or examples to reference. The photos and story you are providing will be a great help in future restorations for sure. Thanks for taking time to post the photos as I know it takes time. Merry Christmas to you and yours. Looking forward to " the rest of the story".


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:29 am

I found this picture and it does seem to confirm the "A" pillars do widen toward the top. That's a relief !!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:04 am

No Don the "A" pillars do not get wider at the top … They get narrower at the bottom! :lol:
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:59 am

That's why I need your experience Mr. Perry Dennis Kete Seth !! Hey "perry dennis" sounds like a tooth mender....


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Model T Mark » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 am

Dad and I have a late 16 with a lot of early features on it if you want to drive to Battle Creek to check it out. Great job.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by bud delong » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:04 am

About 20 years ago the Central T"s were invited for a light brunch and a look at the collection.If any get the invite,GO LOOK!!!!! Nice T"s and very nice people!!!! Bud. :D

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Ed Baudoux » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:48 pm

Now Don has an excuse to attend the Gilmore Show this spring :) Eyre's shop(s) are not far away, and Mark and Phil were kind enough to let us roam through their place in May. So many things to admire!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:14 pm

Don't know Ed this thing is real bugger to figure out. I'm not going to put pressure on myself as far as how long it will take. But I could always take the Fordor or the '22. Just hope we have a better spring than the last one. I may have to take a trip to Ann Arbor if they still have the hood former for me.

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Ed Baudoux » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:57 pm

Don, that's what I meant. Bring the Fordor to the show, so that there will be two of us. We can ask the Eyre boys if we can visit them and check out the Center Door of Mark's. :) You need to make use of the fresh RV!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Model T Mark » Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:37 pm

I measured our front window opening it’s the same at the bottom as it is at the top. 39 inches and our top wind folds out and the bottom one in.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:27 pm

Yup 39" is what this is. The top window can open either in or out. The bottom only opens to the inside. Thanks Mark !

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:56 pm

It is so inspiring to see others work being done. Especially when we are between projects. The window channel is wonderful to see. My newer channel in the Coupe which lives outdoors is fraying. Perhaps I can make something more durable that will have the correct look to it.
Thanks again for sharing the photos.
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:26 am

Thanks Rich, it's a tough project. I'm also getting some feedback that Ford NEVER MADE BRASS ERA CENTERDOORS ! Well, I don't know the answer. I do know that this is my car and my project and i'm going to build it the way I want. Call it a clown wagon or a parade float....don't care.

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by CudaMan » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:02 am

The Encyclopedia for model years 1915 and 1916 clearly show a sedan being offered. Looking closely at the illustrations shows it to be a center door. :)

https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm

https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1916.htm
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by ewdysar » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:43 am

Thanks for the post, Mark. Since you posted pics of the ‘15 and ‘16, I looked through the rest of the years through ‘25. Admittedly, I know very little about the closed cars, but given the notes and pics in the encyclopedia, I learned something new (to me). It appears that all of the years of Sedans were centerdoors. When they added the Fordor, they referred to it as a Fordor sedan, and it wasn’t until the introduction of the Tudor sedan during the transition to high radiator cars, did they move the sedan doors forward to the A pillar. So all of the Sedans (not Fordors) were centerdoors from 1915 to 1923.

I’m sure that some of you are shaking your heads and saying “well, duh. thanks for the book report, captain obvious.” but again, I just haven’t spent any time learning the evolution of the closed cars, specifically the sedans.

I now return you to the rest of this highly informative and interesting thread.

Keep crankin’
Eric


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by mtntee20 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:36 pm

Eric,

You are correct. 15-23 Sedans were all Center Doors. In 23, the made both the Sedan and the Fordor sedan. The Sedan (Center Door) was discontinued in 23.

Don,

Great Job. I am keeping all of your photos to help me with the rewooding of our 20 Center door. I know the wood is NOT exactly the same but your photos will give me a very good idea of what it's supposed to look like. Thank you for taking the time and effort to take the photos and post them for us. I really appreciate your work.

Good Luck,
Terry Miller


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:07 pm

Thank you Mark, Eric and Terry. Well today I roughed in the top of the window frames. Keep in mind that I had to oversize them so I have some material to shape the curvature of upper top side. Without a pattern to go by it makes it necessary to oversize these pieces so I can at least draw the curve and get it close enough to cut. Some complicated angles to work out. Just parts of the fun...
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Dallas Landers » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:09 pm

I agree Don better to do it twice once than once twice. Its costs less that way.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Allan » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:26 pm

Great work Don. Do you see any areas where the joints can be glued? Or, will it all be able move with the twisting of the T frame. I have glued door frames to make them rigid, but lave the rest to flex if they need to.

Allan from down under.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 am

When the time comes Allan I will be using 3M 5200 Marine Adhesive on ALL the joints. It is the perfect product for this type of work. It makes the joints as strong as possible but allows them to flex without breaking the joint or the wood.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:57 am

"It's a tough project. I'm also getting some feedback that Ford NEVER MADE BRASS ERA CENTERDOORS !"
Yeah, that is a tough one. A figurative minefield of opinions and half-truths bandied about, with no yet real confirmed answer.
Just as a clarification, Ford certainly did build the earlier aluminum bodied center-door sedans, about 950 of them. The body was similar in appearance, but totally different in construction, upholstery, and finishing than all of the center-door sedans that followed.
About thirty years ago, I had two friends that had 1916 brass radiator Ford center-door sedans. I got involved a bit in their research.Both of them had some known history, and had been claimed as original cars for decades. One, was a nicely restored Canadian built c-door sedan. It was very interesting, having many of the Canadian differences. It also still had its original under the rear seat gasoline tank just like the true '15s built in the USA. Unfortunately, whoever had done the restoration, did not want to fool with that troublesome fuel flow and added (changed!) a later front seat with the gasoline tank under the driver's seat.
The car also had fork mounted electric headlamps,and several other indications that the car was early enough to have been a brass radiator originally.
The owners of that car did take it on one of the Catalina Caper tours. I went on that tour with my speedster. And Bruce McCalley was there. The three of us spent about a half hour looking over the car, and discussing the then questionable existence of 1916 center-door sedans.

I am not sure the time is right yet for another discussion on the subject. I certainly have my opinion. It is based upon some really good evidence that I have personally seen, but do not personally have at this point, and some comments on this forum in years past. Thirty years ago, there really wasn't any good evidence to support the notion that Ford did build and sell center-door sedans in 1916. However, since then, a few tidbits have surfaced that indicate that they did indeed build them, and sell them.

I would be interested to hear from anyone familiar with Canadian center-door sedans, and just how late did Ford of Canada use the under the rear seat gasoline tank?


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by John Page » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:34 pm

A few Forum Members who were contributing here going back some years will remember the story of Hap Tuckers family 1915 Centerdoor Sedan.

Best regards, John Page, Australia.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/142783.html


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:45 pm

John Booth - You probably know this already, but just in case, I thought I'd let you know what I've learned from "experience" about 3M 5200! Used to have a '29' sailboat and used 3M 5200 quite often. It had/has the reputation among the "boating community" that you use 3M 5200 when installing & sealing something that you don't ever, "EVER" intend to remove, because if you ever need to remove or disassemble something that's been sealed, affixed, bonded, etc, etc with 3M 5200, you'll absolutely destroy the surface of whatever the item was "affixed" to in trying to remove3 it! Unbelievable and great stuff! FWIW,....harold


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Harold you are absolutely right. I have had to repair boats that had been restored with 3M 5200. The easiest way to handle it was with a good sharp razor blade and in some instances I used a hack saw blade. I admit I am partial to using it because it has NEVER failed me in the 4 decades of working on large wood boats. And I can't think of a better adhesive for a Model T. The Fordor's I've done and the TT tops along with the coupes all have the joints done with 5200. I would not recommend it on anything other than the wood structure. The cobra grain tops I use Locktite PL-S30 which is a polyurethane sealant adhesive. It sticks to just about anything and remains very soft when cured. It cuts easily with a razor blade and can be removed with Lacquer thinner. Just my way of doing it and its a "to each their own" how they chose to build these old rattle buckets. Thanks Harold !! :)

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:49 pm

Certainly Revell wouldn't have been wrong in 1952 when their Highway Pioneers came on the scene.
1915CntrDoor.jpg
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:38 pm

What a cool picture Rich ! Thanks for posting it, now if I could just get some dimensions... ;)


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:04 pm

(Me, chuckling!)
Although not exactly correct, the car pictured is actually a 1914 built prototype for the true '15 center-door sedan. It had curved front fenders, carriage lamps behind the top of the doors, and gas headlamps. There were at lest two such cars built, and at least one photo exists of one of them near the camera, and the other farther behind the near car. There were several differences between the two (some people believe there may have been as many as four of them, but I have never heard of any evidence to that), slightly different fenders for instance. Numerous photos exist of the cars, with slight variations. Speculation (from others) says that Ford may have tried them with differing fenders or trim, or maybe there were more than the two known for certain. I have no real opinion on that point.
It is likely that the bodies for these were provided by one or more of several body suppliers wanting to drum up more work for themselves. There were a few companies that made special bodies for any car, with some basic designs and patterns already in place. Very likely, the much more elegant true '15 was a slight modification of one of those ready designs. Too expensive for most people wanting a model T for daily use, the body design and trimming was simplified again for 1916 to bring the costs down.

Many automobile manufacturers utilized these company's offerings to include fancy coupes and sedans in their sales literature without having to set up the full manufacturing necessary to produce them in quantity. Studebaker, Chalmers, Hudson, were among the many midsize cars that did this. A few such sedans do still survive.

A few years back, someone posted on this forum about a (I believe it was a 1916?) Maxwell center-door sedan. They said the body was almost identical in almost every detail to the true '15 Ford center-door sedan.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by John Page » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:38 am

Great discussion Wayne.

Attached is an image from Floyd Clymer's Book " Henry Ford's Wonderful Model T "

Also attached are two screen shots from some footage that I discovered way back in 2010.

Link: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIVEKxKDexU

Towards the end of the footage Henry Ford and his guests drive away in a Centerdoor Sedan. I believe it is Edsel Ford driving.

Note the early Gas Lights. The footage has 1919 as the time this film was taken, ---- I think it is probably earlier.

Best regards, John Page, Australia.
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Topic author
fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:20 am

Ok looking at Johns last picture of the C-door, note the rear window swoop. This is what I am attempting to duplicate this morning. Opinions welcome, do you think I have the general idea? Still nothing is fastened or trued up. It also needs to be quarter round yet.
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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:40 am

Wow the body work looks great and is coming along fast.

Is that one of those "Low Riders?"
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:15 am

Thanks Mr. Pair of Keets !! So, you are laying on your back inside this ole C-door and your head is resting on the mag post looking up. This is the dash to firewall support bracket which I have to assume was original. It also has the two curved wood pieces that appear to be for attaching interior panels up to the firewall. Is this thinking correct? Talk to me ~ :D (the wood is the bottom of the dashless dash) I'm getting a migraine ~!
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John Page
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by John Page » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:56 pm

Don,
Not sure if either of the illustrations are helpful.

From what I am seeing nothing looks like your bracket.

Best regards, John Page, Australia.
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:08 pm

To me, this is all very interesting. When I restored mine about 25 years ago, I didn't get very much into the wood or body structure (hence I can't answer some of your questions). My car was a basket case when I got it. It had been badly "restored" back in the '50s, with a LOT of wrong parts. But it clearly had been a solid original car. A previous owner about twenty years earlier had taken the thing apart with the intention of redoing it. Then it got passed from owner to owner to new owner for about two decades. I did have to redo the interior, as in its previous restoration they left the original in place. However, it was falling apart. The repaint it had gotten in the '50s was mostly very nice. I figured I couldn't really do any better, so I touched up, re-sanded, and polished the body. I had to repaint the fenders and a lot of other things, and along with replacing a lot of wrong parts with correct ones, fix and reassemble the thing. It was basically an easy restoration.
So, seeing your project, and how everything is made, is fascinating!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:17 pm

Thanks for the framing pictures Wayne ! There are some differences from those diagrams. Example being the rear window wood, the original wood was intact and it had a block from the center of the oval to the top rail. Another piece of 3/4" runs from both vertical braces on each side of the window across the bottom of the window. That brace has a curved cut that rests on the rear belt line brace. It can be seen in my pictures and it was original wood with upholstery tacks still in it. I will check that dash/firewall brace and see if there are any part numbers stamped anywhere. Thanks again !!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:31 pm

1915 Centerdoor pictures....a bit clearer.
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Topic author
fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:32 pm

cont....
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:05 pm

Hey there Don B, That was john Page of Australia that posted those framing pictures (Thank You John P !). I spent some several minutes looking at them myself before my previous post and also noticed several differences between them. I know that at least two body suppliers provided c-door bodies to Ford from 1917 through '23, and those framing pictures are of later bodies. One of them has the starter era dash in the body frame. I also know that there are framing differences between the two suppliers, but other than the three or five top ribs, I don't really know just what the differences are. I noticed that one of the pictures posted by John P shows the five top ribs.
I am not sure who supplied the true '15 bodies, the prototype bodies in '14, or the '16/'17 c-door bodies.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:27 pm

Fred Lau of Portland Oregon (RIP) had a center door and as I recall was an early 15. It had the early larger head lights, not mounted on the forks type. I wish I had taken photos of it at the time. It was an unrestored car, even with his red 09 touring in the other shop I found the center door way more interesting.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup

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