Engine was running, now seized
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Topic author - Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am
- First Name: Brendan
- Last Name: Hoban
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Engine was running, now seized
What is happening here.
Ten months ago we were rallying without issue. However, I damaged my wrist and elbow and could not crank this non-starter 22 Touring RHD.
It got stiffer and stiffer to turn over which I attribute to my injury.
A week ago, it seized and I snapped the crank handle trying to turn it over.
I took the head off today to discover some moisture in cylinders 3 and 4 and hard stuff on the cylinder walls. The motor has been sleeved so the block cannot leak and the head is an aluminium Z head with no apparent problems.
I have tried rocking the car in high gear to no effect. I have soaked the cylinders with Penetrene and will try rocking, tapping with a wood block, hand cranking.
Any other suggestions?
Ten months ago we were rallying without issue. However, I damaged my wrist and elbow and could not crank this non-starter 22 Touring RHD.
It got stiffer and stiffer to turn over which I attribute to my injury.
A week ago, it seized and I snapped the crank handle trying to turn it over.
I took the head off today to discover some moisture in cylinders 3 and 4 and hard stuff on the cylinder walls. The motor has been sleeved so the block cannot leak and the head is an aluminium Z head with no apparent problems.
I have tried rocking the car in high gear to no effect. I have soaked the cylinders with Penetrene and will try rocking, tapping with a wood block, hand cranking.
Any other suggestions?
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
What piston are you using? Dan
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
First off what is or describe the "hard stuff" on the cyl. walls. Melted metal or what ? Were you losing coolant or perhaps blowing white smoke if you had anti-freeze in it ? There wouldn't be coolant in the cyls. if the head/gasket was OK. Check the drive line/trans & make sure nothing is causing the increasing drag and locking up. If all else fails it's drop the inspection pan and see what's locked.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Just because an engine has been sleeved does not mean it can not leak where a repair was done.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
My 1912 engine, restored before I got it, seized suddenly. Wrist pins had not been properly honed, melted piston aluminum from the heat.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
You could have a leaky head gasket or a crack in the head. You can have a crack in the block near the valve seat which if it leaked when the valve was closed would go into the cylinder. It is very common to have a crack between the exhaust valve and the cylinder. I don't know what the "hard stuff" is, but if it is black and oily, could be carbon deposits from oil burning. I don't know any other reason why the engine would seize up when parked unless water was leaking into the cylinder causing rust in the cylinder walls.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Just a thought : A number of similar threads a bout locked-up engine always suggested checking band adjustments and making sure nothing was blocking the crankshaft pulley before tearing into the engine.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
It’s probably a seized wrist pin.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Brendan, I had a similar event. The root cause was low coolant level. Number 4 piston got quite hot, enough to leave aluminium scored onto the cylinder walls as it seized. This may be what you are seeing. At the same time the gudgeon pin also became rather tight in that piston.
The good news is I was able to clean up the bore and re-hone it. The piston was dressed to clean it up, and reamed to better fit the pin. It went back together well and has given no trouble at all.
If you have coolant issues, they will need to be addressed to prevent it happening again.
Your indication that it got progressively worse/harder to crank could also mean it was the piston pin seizing over time, and that has led to the problem.
Allan from down under.
The good news is I was able to clean up the bore and re-hone it. The piston was dressed to clean it up, and reamed to better fit the pin. It went back together well and has given no trouble at all.
If you have coolant issues, they will need to be addressed to prevent it happening again.
Your indication that it got progressively worse/harder to crank could also mean it was the piston pin seizing over time, and that has led to the problem.
Allan from down under.
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Topic author - Posts: 36
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
I sprayed eachexposed bore with Penetyrene and left it 24 hours.
Today, i thought I would just try to rock the car in high gear to see if something moved.
I almost lost the car off the four poster hoist as pistions moved, engine turned over, vehicle moved much more than I expected! I am so happy!
With the newly welded crank handle, I turned the engine over and cleaned all the "brown hard stuff" from the bores now displaced by the pistons.
I've had the head decked and obtained good advice from the head shop. Tomorrow, I will thoroughly clean the block and reinstall the Z head with copper spray as the youtube videos suggest.
What is a "crows foot" that reaches to rear bolt heads for correct torquing? Is it available in Australia?
Today, i thought I would just try to rock the car in high gear to see if something moved.
I almost lost the car off the four poster hoist as pistions moved, engine turned over, vehicle moved much more than I expected! I am so happy!
With the newly welded crank handle, I turned the engine over and cleaned all the "brown hard stuff" from the bores now displaced by the pistons.
I've had the head decked and obtained good advice from the head shop. Tomorrow, I will thoroughly clean the block and reinstall the Z head with copper spray as the youtube videos suggest.
What is a "crows foot" that reaches to rear bolt heads for correct torquing? Is it available in Australia?
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Topic author - Posts: 36
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Another question.
Will all "Crows Foot" wrenches reach the rear head bolts?
What adjustments do I need to make to the torque wrench setting to account for the greater wrench radius?
Will all "Crows Foot" wrenches reach the rear head bolts?
What adjustments do I need to make to the torque wrench setting to account for the greater wrench radius?
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Glad you got the motor loose, here are crows feet and how they work, you do not have to recalibrate your torque wrench when using them, the difference is negligeble for the sizes used in cars.
Happy wrenching !
Happy wrenching !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
I’d be very surprised if just putting the head back on and trying to start it solves the problem. An engine seized so bad that the starting crank breaks is very very likely to require more investigation and a proper fix. If I had an engine with the same symptoms, I would pull all the pistons, examine them, examine all the rings, check each wrist pin, and each rod bearing before I would reinstall the head.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
I cut a socket in the middle and weld them together .
When you set that side ways , then the [force ] is the same .
Toon
When you set that side ways , then the [force ] is the same .
Toon
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Adam
I'm with you
Have you spent a moment to even ask what it took to break the crank???
I'm with you
Have you spent a moment to even ask what it took to break the crank???
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Sounds like you are making progress. Wondered about breaking the crank, that would take a lot of force. I had to chuckle about; "obtained good advice from the head shop" in the US that can mean something else (they sell green stuff that you smoke and makes you happy)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
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Topic author - Posts: 36
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Thank you all for all of your advice.
In Australia, a "head shed" is an engineer who rebuilds engine block heads. I didn't realise it was something else overseas!
He took twelve thou off mine to get a flat plane.
Alan, I was just pulling the crank handle up when it broke. To put it mildly, I was very surprised!
The motor turns over very easily even with my injured arm so i have assumed that there is nothing wrong with the gudgeons, pistons, rings, con rods, crank , no loose magnets etc.
So I have now:
Cleaned the block top, valves and piston heads with a wire brush on a drill,
Gone over the bores with 1200 wet and dry paper soaked in kerosine to remove any residue of the anti-freeze coolant,
Check all the valves and seats (they're relatively new stainless on a 250 Stipe cam wirh followers adjusted to ten thou,)
Checked for pistons hitting the head without the gasket installed, No 4 was hitting in a few places
Spent some time grinding a little off the inside of the head to No 4 piston,
Installed a new head gasket with copper spray,
Fitted the head and torqued it down to 45 foot pounds gradually,
Drained the oil,
Then I ran out of time and the weather got too hot.
Tomorrow morning I will:
Fill with new oil,
Reinstall the radiator and fill it with straight water,
Attempt to hand start the motor before it gets to the forecast temperature of 40C (thats 104F in the US)
If it works I will probably just run the motor for 20 minutes in the shed . If it is not too hot, i might be tempted to go for a little drive.
Then I will shut it down to let everything cool completely overnight.
On Friday, I will retorque the head.
Comments and advice would be much appreciated.
In Australia, a "head shed" is an engineer who rebuilds engine block heads. I didn't realise it was something else overseas!
He took twelve thou off mine to get a flat plane.
Alan, I was just pulling the crank handle up when it broke. To put it mildly, I was very surprised!
The motor turns over very easily even with my injured arm so i have assumed that there is nothing wrong with the gudgeons, pistons, rings, con rods, crank , no loose magnets etc.
So I have now:
Cleaned the block top, valves and piston heads with a wire brush on a drill,
Gone over the bores with 1200 wet and dry paper soaked in kerosine to remove any residue of the anti-freeze coolant,
Check all the valves and seats (they're relatively new stainless on a 250 Stipe cam wirh followers adjusted to ten thou,)
Checked for pistons hitting the head without the gasket installed, No 4 was hitting in a few places
Spent some time grinding a little off the inside of the head to No 4 piston,
Installed a new head gasket with copper spray,
Fitted the head and torqued it down to 45 foot pounds gradually,
Drained the oil,
Then I ran out of time and the weather got too hot.
Tomorrow morning I will:
Fill with new oil,
Reinstall the radiator and fill it with straight water,
Attempt to hand start the motor before it gets to the forecast temperature of 40C (thats 104F in the US)
If it works I will probably just run the motor for 20 minutes in the shed . If it is not too hot, i might be tempted to go for a little drive.
Then I will shut it down to let everything cool completely overnight.
On Friday, I will retorque the head.
Comments and advice would be much appreciated.
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Topic author - Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Thank you all for your advice on crows foot wrenches.
My experinece in this area was not good.
I brought the only set that was availablw to me locally in Australia and it was metric.
The crows foot set contained 15mm and 17mm but what I needed for head bolts was 16mm. (closest to 5/8 inch)
The car is a 22 touring with an Australian built body with very little space to access the rear three head bolts beneath the wooden fire wall. The crows foot wrench had no hope of reaching two of these bolts.
I couldn't even torque these bolts from the cabin side due to the location of the coil box.
So I used a ring spanner and just guessed when it was 45 foot pounds or better.
Ah, the trials and tribulations of a Model T!
My experinece in this area was not good.
I brought the only set that was availablw to me locally in Australia and it was metric.
The crows foot set contained 15mm and 17mm but what I needed for head bolts was 16mm. (closest to 5/8 inch)
The car is a 22 touring with an Australian built body with very little space to access the rear three head bolts beneath the wooden fire wall. The crows foot wrench had no hope of reaching two of these bolts.
I couldn't even torque these bolts from the cabin side due to the location of the coil box.
So I used a ring spanner and just guessed when it was 45 foot pounds or better.
Ah, the trials and tribulations of a Model T!
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Be vigilant. I don't believe you've solved it unless it overheated to the point where it locked but I doubt that.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Did he ever say what pistons he had? If they are Al, bet the piston pins locked up. Bet it will do it again. Dan
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Topic author - Posts: 36
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Thank you again, your comments are always most helpful.
The crank handle had a fault at the first bend, there was quite a hollow at the point where it broke. I am disappointed, it only lasted 97 years, i expect more of a T. With the welding that was done, it is likely to last another 97 years without problems.
In answer to your many questions,
The pistons are aluminium.
All postons moved easily on their gudgeon (wrist) pins,
The engine did not suffer overheating, it had not run for 8 months when it became stiff to turn over. I have a habit of cranking it a couple of revs every few weeks to distribute the oil.
The crud on the bores looked like crystallised brown sugar, I assume that was dried anti-freeze, I'm inclined to never use it again as it never gets to freezing point her in Australia.
There was no evidence of scoring in the bores,
I checked the engine bolt lengths to find that I had and average of 3mm (1/8 inch) clearance to the bottom of each of the block holes.
I got it all together with the head on and it still moves freely without a piston touching the head.
As the temperature had reached 39 degrees C at 9.30am, I have put off the start till tomorrow when it will be much cooler.
I'll keep you posted.
Brendan Hoban
The crank handle had a fault at the first bend, there was quite a hollow at the point where it broke. I am disappointed, it only lasted 97 years, i expect more of a T. With the welding that was done, it is likely to last another 97 years without problems.
In answer to your many questions,
The pistons are aluminium.
All postons moved easily on their gudgeon (wrist) pins,
The engine did not suffer overheating, it had not run for 8 months when it became stiff to turn over. I have a habit of cranking it a couple of revs every few weeks to distribute the oil.
The crud on the bores looked like crystallised brown sugar, I assume that was dried anti-freeze, I'm inclined to never use it again as it never gets to freezing point her in Australia.
There was no evidence of scoring in the bores,
I checked the engine bolt lengths to find that I had and average of 3mm (1/8 inch) clearance to the bottom of each of the block holes.
I got it all together with the head on and it still moves freely without a piston touching the head.
As the temperature had reached 39 degrees C at 9.30am, I have put off the start till tomorrow when it will be much cooler.
I'll keep you posted.
Brendan Hoban
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Brendan
I'd strongly discourage the use of water as everything will corrode. These engines already have thin spots due to that very thing over the years. Coolant is doing you a great favor in not allowing that to continue. Additionally, if you believe that was coolant in the cylinders, if it had been water, you'd still be beating on those pistons to free them up. Just a thought.
I'd strongly discourage the use of water as everything will corrode. These engines already have thin spots due to that very thing over the years. Coolant is doing you a great favor in not allowing that to continue. Additionally, if you believe that was coolant in the cylinders, if it had been water, you'd still be beating on those pistons to free them up. Just a thought.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Run with water just long enough to be sure nothing is leaking, then switch to coolant. As posted above it keeps the iron and aluminum from corroding and it will also prevent freezing. Even here in Southern California It has gotten down to 18F a few times, which would be enough to crack the block or radiator.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Interesting that you would say that. When I originally posted that it was likely a seized wrist pin, I was also going to say “either that or someone put sugar in your gas tank”...brendan.hoban wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:07 amThe crud on the bores looked like crystallised brown sugar, I assume that was dried anti-freeze...
Re: Engine was running, now seized
Maybe run a fan in front of the radiator if you are going to let it run without driving it.
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Topic author - Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am
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Re: Engine was running, now seized
Hooray, it started.
Not first pull but after encouraging the fuel into the cylinders, it started raggedly and then settled down to a steady road!
I took it for a half hour drive and it ran without incident.
Thenk you all for your encouragement and advice.
Not first pull but after encouraging the fuel into the cylinders, it started raggedly and then settled down to a steady road!
I took it for a half hour drive and it ran without incident.
Thenk you all for your encouragement and advice.