Loose rivets in brakedrum

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
dykker5502
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Deichmann
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1921 Roadster P/U, 1922 Fordor (danish custom body)
Location: Rågeleje, Denmark
MTFCA Number: 29116
Board Member Since: 2007

Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by dykker5502 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:36 pm

Hi,

Take a look at this short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFvdphz9utc (Im speaking danish, but I say it's bad that the rivets are loose)

Can I save this by trying to heat the rivets individually (somehow) and hammer them so when they cool it will be tight again? Or what does one do?
(Apart from finding another)
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
ECCT, Strobospark, HCCT(Sold), Rebuilding coils

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4957
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:26 pm

I have seen the brake drum rivets staked to get tight, that is a very short term fix as is what you are suggesting. There is a lot of stress on that drum between using it for brakes and clutch. My suggestion is new over sized rivets if needed and re do, but depends on how wallowed out the holes are, what size would be needed. Be aware these are not off the shelf rivets, the head angle is not standard and the drum would need to be faced after riveting. Depending on how worn things are, even oversize rivets might not fix it.
Standard size;
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3311RIV.aspx
Over sized;
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3311RIVO.aspx
Would this be a 26/27 drum?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 1028
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by Kaiser » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:17 am

When I was a young boy in school learning to become a ships engineer I was told that hot or cold riveting depends on what the use of the parts would be;

If the purpose was to have a tight seam, like in a boiler or a ships hull hot riveting was the way to go.

If the purpose was to transfer a mechanical load, cold riveting was preferred.

The reasoning behind it was that by hot riveting the rivet shrinks when cooling resulting in a force pulling both plates tighter together, but the shrinkage also meant that the shank of the rivet got just a tiny bit smaller in diameter, which you don't want if you have to transfer a radial load say on a brake drum or a sprocket on a axle, then you want to fill the holes in the flange and the drum as tightly as possible, so you rivet it cold so the shank of the rivet does not shrink and fills the hole entirely around its circumference to resist shearing forces better. :ugeek:
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

Chris Bamford
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:01 pm
First Name: Chris
Last Name: Bamford
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Speedster 1926 Touring
Location: Edmonton AB Canada
MTFCA Number: 17817

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by Chris Bamford » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:52 am

Dave Nolting, manufacturer of the wonderful new T transmission drums, rivets them to their hubs cold (using a press).


Adam
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
First Name: Adam
Last Name: Doleshal
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘13 Touring, ‘24 Touring, ‘25 TT dump truck, ‘26 Tudor, ‘20 Theiman harvester T powerplant, ‘20 T Staude tractor
Location: Wisconsin
MTFCA Number: 23809
MTFCI Number: 1
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by Adam » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:50 am

Cold riveting is the way to go on transmission drums and it really should be carefully done in a press. The rivets then need to be faced in a lathe.

Round trip shipping might be too pricey to be worthwhile for you, but I re-rivet transmission drums for $40.


J and M Machine
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:46 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Gulbankian
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by J and M Machine » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:47 pm

Can I save this by trying to heat the rivets individually (somehow) and hammer them so when they cool it will be tight again? Or what does one do?
(Apart from finding another)

It is better to remove them and purchase replacements and then start over. The rivets along with the holes will be worn and if you reset them they will loosen up shortly. You would need to cold rivet them.
Once you install the rivets you will need to remachine the surface as shown in pictures so the heads don't interfere with the thrust washers.
We also make the tranmsission drums and gears see above.
Attachments
IMG_2039.JPG
IMG_2041.JPG


J and M Machine
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:46 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Gulbankian
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by J and M Machine » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 pm

One more thing, Since no one else has mentioned this.
Since the brake drum is loose on the hub It would be wise to get the Brake drum crack inspected.
Most often we see engines with good drums only to fail the crack inspection as the rivet holes are cracked around the rivets.
Makes no sense to rerivet the drum only for it to loosen again and fail.
Above picture is a crack in the rivet hole on a reverse drum but same thing occurs to all the drums even drive plate.
It's worth it to have them checked.
Attachments
IMG_2887.JPG


D Stroud
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Coupe
Location: Mound City, MO 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by D Stroud » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:15 am

I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but not only when rivets work loose, the holes become elongated and the edges of the holes create ridges that won't let the flat surfaces clamp down even if the rivets are just peined again. As said, it's by far better to remove the parts and repair/replace/revivet everything. JMHO Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.

User avatar

Topic author
dykker5502
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Deichmann
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1921 Roadster P/U, 1922 Fordor (danish custom body)
Location: Rågeleje, Denmark
MTFCA Number: 29116
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by dykker5502 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:58 pm

All,
thanks for all the good advice. I have a buddy who are familiar with rivetting - hot and cold and we will obviously go with cold. Oversize rivets are ordered and picked up tomorrow together with new bushings for various shafts.
J & M - I do not have access to Magnaflux, but will clean up the drum thoroughly and see if I can see cracks by naked eye with magnifying glass.
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
ECCT, Strobospark, HCCT(Sold), Rebuilding coils


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Loose rivets in brakedrum

Post by Allan » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:16 pm

I would replace the rivets one at a time. Drill one out, fit one in.That will keep the hub and drum in line when fitting them together. I note the cracks in the JM photo. I have found a number of such cracks over the years. If the rest of the drum is sound, I have re-used them. There is every chance that such cracks occurred when the two were initially riveted together. Better without the cracks, but not a real problem.

I could be wrong.
Allan from down under.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic