Engine turn off after a short drive.

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keevge
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Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by keevge » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:04 pm

Hi,
at first I have to apologize for the bad English.
I'm a German mechanic and since September I own a 1924 Model T Touring.

It's awesome to own and drive this car, a almost 100 years old car.

But that's not the point of the Post.

After I get the Car, I checked the Oil level, changed the Fuel and watch some "How to start" videos.
Then I tried to start and the engine started perfectly after only 1 second cranking with the e-starter.

The engine starts always as good as this.

But after I drive a small tour, less then a mile, the engine startet to (I don't know the correct word) "spit", as if the engine gets no fuel.
Then the engine turned off and every try to restart it fails.
After 2 or 3 Hours the Car will start again, without any issue.

While the drive I got the feeling that the engine do not have the full power.
The engine has not enough power to get in higher rpm in the fast-gear.

I've already cleaned the Carburetor, changed the Fuel, changed the spark plugs.

I hope someone can understand, what i tried to explain and got an idea what's Wrong with this beautiful Car.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:17 pm

Spitting and dying after starting normally certainly sounds like fuel starvation. Lack of power is sometimes a symptom of that too. Put a pan under the car and open the valve on the bottom of the carburetor. If the fuel stops running into the pan after a minute or two, the float valve is stuck or something is restricting the flow from the tank to the carburetor.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Dallas Landers
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Welcome to the forum! Does the fuel cap have a hole to let air into tank. Sounds like vapor lock. 1st thing that came to mind. Simple to check also. Hope others will offer help also.

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:40 pm

Unlike modern cars the fuel tank needs to be vented - the reference to a small hole in the gas cap. Also the sediment bulb may have collected dirt and as was mentioned the carburetor bowl. I think these pictures should help you check the fuel system - Your English is much better than my German - tschüs Frank
Attachments
Sediment Bulb.jpg
Untitled.png
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:49 pm

Welcome to T ownership. I also suggest draining a little petrol from both the sediment bulb and the carburetor but place a sheet of white paper in the bottom of the pan into which you drain these. It will make it easier to see if there is debris.


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by keevge » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:07 pm

oh wow, what a great community..
so many replies after just a few minutes. thanks to all of you!

@ Steve Jelf: I tried these already, or something like that.. after the last test, I forgot to close the Fuel Valve after a few hours there where a small puddle, not much.
On next morning the puddle become much bigger. The Carburetor overflowd.

@ Dallas Landers: OMG.. of course.. that's so simple.. I don't know, how I could not think about it.. I'll check this tomorrow.

@ Frank: The previous owner has removed this sediment bulb and replaced it with a straight lane and an extern valve for open & close the Fuel.
he also installed an electric pump, which didn't word, so I removed her.


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Bud Delong » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:19 pm

What sort of ignition do you have? Bud.

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:28 pm

I thought about replacing the sediment bulb with a shutoff ball valve and fuel filter. I was told that it might restrict the fuel flow provided by the extra fuel in the sediment bulb. I do not no if that is correct, but maybe that is why it had a fuel pump.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:41 pm

Are you advancing the spark lever, meaning pulling it down, when you drive? The lever should be UP when starting, but pulled DOWN to drive. Once you have mastered the starting and starting to drive procedures, you can fine tune your driving skills by adjusting the spark lever to adapt to driving conditions (slightly retarding spark lever when climbing a steep hill to reduce engine knocking, full advance for speed driving). If you leave the spark lever in the retarded position when starting to drive, the car will go forward, but it will act sluggish and not reach speed, which sounds like your circumstances. The engine will also overheat if you drive too far with the spark retarded.
Also, you are enrichening the carb to drive, aren't you? The setting may be too lean, which will cause the engine to lack power and sputter.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by keevge » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:54 pm

@ Bud: mhh.. i don't know..I thought every T has the same.

@ Frank: ahh.. I think I got it.. I have to say I have not paid attention to it yet... but I will check this and maybe install a e-pump again..

@ Marshall: I pull the lever down while driving. the engine is running very smooth. If im in the 1st gear the rpm raises up and the T is getting forward. but if I'm shifting in the 2nd gear the rpm won't get up. Also while I'm driving up a hill, the T gets slower and slower, even in the 1st gear.
Maybe I have to train my Drivingskill..:X


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 pm

I have posted in years past the problem I had with a friend's Holley NH after rebuilding. Cutting to the chase, the lowest passageway had not been drilled and cleaned out. Enough fuel was reaching the engine to start and keep running, but under power needs, the fuel flow inside the carb could not keep up. After drilling out all the plugs and cleaning the passageways of crud, the engine started quicker and had LOTS more power. Have you cleaned out the carb's passageways manually, not by spraying cleaner or soaking it? I am now a firm believer in drilling out the passageway plugs and cleaning out the passageways of accumulated crud. Every carb (Holley HN) I have done since needed the lowest passageway cleaned.
Marshall


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keevge
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by keevge » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:12 pm

I just removed it, disassembled and cleaned it with a spray. I did not drill anything.

The Carb is a mystery to me anyway.. it looks like small carb for a 50ccm scooter, not for a 3000ccm engine.
But maybe my view is too influenced by modern cars. :?: :!: :?:

It seems to be a day full of work for me tomorrow.
I will try all your advices and give a feedback.

Thank you so far,

Kevin


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by DHort » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:21 pm

Kevin, can you post a photo of your carburetor?


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Allan » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:34 pm

Kevin, I would start again with your fuel system. There is no need for an electric fuel pump in a T, so that can go. It would seem that your car is fitted with a modern carburetor from a small engine. That should go too. If there is any fuel filter, that will restrict flow as well, and it should go too.
With a standard, clean fuel outlet/sediment bulb on the tank and an unobstructed fuel line, a steady flow is available.
You need a Holley NH model carburetor to get back to standard. There are competent rebuilders of these who can supply one. Once you have these in place, there is little that can go wrong, and lots of help available on this forum to sort out any difficulties.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:42 pm

Kevin you described problems that should be addressed separately to make sure we understand.
#1 "If im in the 1st gear the rpm raises up and the T is getting forward. but if I'm shifting in the 2nd gear the rpm won't get up."
also you first said -"While the drive I got the feeling that the engine do not have the full power. The engine has not enough power to get in higher rpm in the fast-gear."
Do you mean engine RPM does not increase or that the car does not go faster?
Also do you change the position of the spark lever to go faster as Marshall responded?
#2 Also "while I'm driving up a hill, the T gets slower and slower" I have been in many parts of Germany and some are relatively flat like our mid-west - but the "hills" can be very steep and the mountains steeper. Since the fuel system is gravity feed, if the underside of the fuel tank is lower than the inlet into the carburetor the fuel will not pass if going up a long hill.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by keevge » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:43 am

Hi,
i attached 2 pics of the Carb. I ever thought it was the original one.

I've testet the Tankcap today and the ventilation works fine.
Then i've tested, if fuel applies to the carb, in the second the engine wont restart.
i opened the union nut? infront of the carb and the gasoline flows perfectly out of the lane, allthough thers a filter installed.

@ Frank: i mean the engine rpm does not increase and because of that the Car does not go faster.
Attachments
IMG_1193.jpg
IMG_1192.jpg


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Bud Delong » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:51 am

Sir my question about your ignition was if you had org coils or a after market single coil unit? Bud from the land of round door knobs. :D

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:49 am

I zoomed in on the carb picture to get the model. It is for a Model T. Also added some links about adjusting it etc. I'm certain others can provide better adjusting instructions for that Model Carb.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1183245409
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1311227031
Attachments
IMG_1193.jpg
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:30 am

I tried to do that too, but there was something about that picture that kept crashing my editing program. Finally I restarted the computer and was able to get this.

file-2.jpg
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:34 am

The Kingston L4 is a good carburetor but it is more complicated than the Holley NH. It has a flap which opens up the passage for higher speed driving. That flap must be loose enough to move by the pressure of the air going through. I would suspect that you have a problem with the float valve because you state that the carburetor drips when the fuel valve is left open and that it runs out of gas while you are driving it. Check the float valve. The original had a needle and seat. If dirt gets in that area, it will either cause the needle to not completely close which will allow gas to leak out when parked with the valve open. Also a bit of dirt in that area could restrict the flow of gas so it runs out of gas when you are driving. There are good valves available through the parts suppliers. I would recommend one with neoprine needle. Some rebuilt carburetors have a gros valve. This looks like a small ball bearing. I don't recommend that type. They tend to get clogged more easily than the needle type.
Norm

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:28 pm

Kevin, almost everything in a Model T is manual: spark advance, throttle and air/fuel mixture. While there have been many suggestions on mechanical solutions perhaps, as a new driver, it would help to understand what you do when while driving to adjust the air/fuel mixture.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Mustang1964s » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:29 pm

keevge,
You didn't mention if the car has been sitting for a long time.
It is has then it could be junk from the gas tank clogging things up.
I has an issue that gave all the symptoms of fuel starvation. It turned out to be an electrical issue.
Double check that all the wires are tight.

Steve
Mart, Tx.

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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:53 pm

When the time comes to rebuild the Kingston L4... This link shows the steps to do it
https://modeltfordfix.com/repairing-a-k ... el-t-ford/
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by wiemue » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:57 am

Hello Kevin,
i bought a year ago a 25 Touring and had the same problems like you! After changing the whole fuel line the problems are gone!
Hallo Kevin, auch ich bin seit einem Jahr stolzer Besitzer eines Forst T Touring von 1925. Bei meiner ersten Ausfahrt blieb auch ich nach ca 5km mit Patchen und Knallen liegen und musste ne Zeit warten bis ich weiterfahren konnte. Ich habe die komplette Benzinleitung getauscht. Nun läuft er anstandslos.
Ich wünsch Dir viel Freunde am Auto und Grüße aus Nordrheinwestfalen!
Sorry to the rest of the forum but for me as german it is easier to explain in German :P
Best regRDS
Willi


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Re: Engine turn off after a short drive.

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:24 pm

Understandable, well sort of! :D

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