Later year replacement parts

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otrcman
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Later year replacement parts

Post by otrcman » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:08 pm

Bob Peterson's thread on his newly acquired (and unrestored) 1911 raised an idea in my mind. I've long wondered about the history of my 1912, which is unknown prior to 1960. So an idea arose: can we learn anything by looking at the age of replacement parts on a mostly unmolested car ?

In Bob's case, his car looks pretty much unmolested, and yet it has what I thought was a 1915/16 coil box. Not a 17 or later, but a 15/16. Now, I can accept that the original coil box became unserviceable in some way and the owner opted to replace the entire unit with a newer model rather than fix the old one. But why a 15/16 ? I'm speculating that a 17 & later box would have been seen as an upgrade. So why not use a box that was even newer ?

My guess is that the owner didn't install a 17/later box because they were not yet available. So maybe by deductive reasoning we can guess that the repair was done sometime between 1915 and say, 1918 or so.

John Reagan planted the seed for this thought process in my mind a couple of years ago when he pointed out that the rear axle in my car is a 13/14/15 type. My first reaction to John's comment was, "I wonder when that happened ?"

John made an interesting point. He said that Ford was going through an evolution in rear axle design up until about 1916, when the design finally became quite durable and no significant changes were made thereafter. The fact that my 1912 axle had failed would be no surprise. So would the owner chose to repair or replace the broken axle with another one of the 1912 type ? No, John suggested that the owner would probably opt for a newer and presumably more durable type. Would the owner install a well-used 1915 axle in 1925 ? No, that would be foolish unless the 1915 was given to him and it's history was known. So the odds are that my car got its 1913-1916 axle before the '17 and later axles became available.

Are there others who have used this sort of detective thought process to learn more about their cars ?


Erik Johnson
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Erik Johnson » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:18 pm

Read my post regarding later coil boxes on early cars that is in Bob Peterson's thread on his newly acquired 1911 Ford:

https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8605


Kerry
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Kerry » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:28 pm

I worked part time at a wrecking yard as a kid. Would someone with a 1912 car fit a 1915 diff in 1925? of course he would. by 1925 the 12 and 15 are no more than just junk cars, one would fit anything just to keep the wheels turning :D

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Corey Walker
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Corey Walker » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:28 pm

I bought a 1914 motor one time with an aluminum hogshead and lettered pedals but a wide nose pan. That’s not unusual because an arm could’ve broken off the original. It had a high head installed but the outlet was for a later radiator and it had an aluminum fan pulley with the long straight arm, Also a water pump. Inside the flywheel was marked “Dodge Bros” but the mag ring was a later single stack oval. So I suppose somebody had a later black era car and stuck the 14 motor in it with some modifications because they had it already or got it cheap.
Corey Walker, Brownsboro, Texas


Burger in Spokane
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Burger in Spokane » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:49 pm

The method of purist thinking that has dominated the old car hobby has many benefits,
as far as keeping a record of how things were originally. But it is often exclusive to keeping
a different history of the vehicle itself. I mean, the car's story BEGAN at a place of original
equipment, but as anything that survives today has a LONG history since being built. I find
this post-manufacture history to be just an interesting as what is OEM correct ........ to a
point. Although this is a rather ambiguous statement, I limit what I think is OK to what might
be called "first life" repairs, or period modifications. Putting post-war parts on a T is not OK
to me. But the kind of repairs and replacements that might have been done during the vehicle's
original service life would not only be OK to me, but are often interesting and a good thing, to
my way of thinking. It tells a story.
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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TRDxB2
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:15 am

The first reason to keep a record of everything done to your T if for "Capital Gains Tax" purposes. I think you realize that you or your Estate
will need to prove if there was a "Capital Gain" or "personal loss" at the time of the sale or inheritance. Currently politicians are talking about raising the capital gain rate to make the "wealthy" pay their fair share - for most of us its currently 15% the real wealthy pay 20%. this is likely to go much higher.
From a "purest" stand point you need to keep a record of everything. Everything known prior to ownership, names of previous owners, modifications made and who made did them, what parts were used (came with the car, NOS, reproduction, reconditioned etc). Its is the cars Diary (provenance) . This information is most valuable a time of sale to a concerned buyer - some will care about the "authenticity" others will care only about the price. So you will need to keep all those bills for parts, repairs etc for proof - pictures help too.
Think of it this way - would a car fetch more money if someone could prove it was owned by President Teddy Roosevelt vs Ted Cob .

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:39 am

Before old cars became antiques, before they even became old cars, the idea of keeping them "original", "authentic", or "correct" was not a factor. Look at a Ford parts book from the twenties and you'll see that it lists whatever current parts will fit and work, not necessarily what came with the car. Need a wishbone for your 1915? The 1928 parts book will tell you to use the under-axle wishbone and perches.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


hpetrino
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by hpetrino » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:03 am

This works both ways. My '18 TT has a '15-'16 steering column, which I'm sure is original to the truck. As has been discussed before, Ford would introduce changes but use up what was on the shelf before using the new part. My steering column is a perfect example.


Topic author
otrcman
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by otrcman » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:40 pm

Burger said,

"...I mean, the car's story BEGAN at a place of original equipment, but as anything that survives today has a LONG history since being built. I find this post-manufacture history to be just an interesting as what is OEM correct ...."

I couldn't agree more, Brent. When I realized that the rear axle on my car was definitely a later year, my first thought was, "I wonder then they did that ?" When I deduced that the replacement probably happened soon after the car was built, I was OK with that and have never had an urge to put in a correct-year axle.

If the original part was only in the car for the first 3 or 4 years, and the replacement has been in for the past 103 years, who am I to change it ?


Burger in Spokane
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Re: Later year replacement parts

Post by Burger in Spokane » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:47 pm

I got my fill of humorous buffoons, watching the Corvette guys itch and twitch about
the most micro-minute details, nitpicking the most absurd stuff with all the self-appointed
authority of the Spanish Inquisition. It was quite amusing. Sort of a cross between some
high school popularity contest and a high falootin' dog show. But with the seriousness of
imposing a death sentence. Nowhere in their scene was a place for enjoying the driving
of their cars. The total focus was on the shine and polish and casting dates on EVERY SINGLE
PART !

And oh ! .... what an honor it must have been, to be awarded the Golden Corndog Award
for most correctly numbers-matching, totally over-restored trailer queen ! And to walk amongst
the giants of the Attaboy Club with that trophy !

I feel such a simpleton and lower than worm shat in the way I pile firewood on mine, let it get
scratched, and worst of all, have detectable repairs using (GOD FORBID ! :shock: ) non-NOS
parts !!! :lol:
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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