Oil pump

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Michel
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Oil pump

Post by Michel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:52 am

Rather than rebabbitting I would like to investigate installation of an OIL PUMP, a Lang's counterbalanced crank 3030CBDA (page 62 of the catalog), an oil pump, and so on.

Has someone experienced such transformation ?

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:16 am

Michel,

Here is what will produce the best results but you will need to relocate your generator or install an alternator on a pulley system. If you require one, please contact me though my email provided.

Hope this Helps!
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IMG_2441.jpeg

Hank

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:22 am

This is an overhead but gives you the idea. I do have the mounts for flat heads as well.

DSC00369.jpeg
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IMG_0204.jpeg

All the Best,

Hank

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:29 am

You will be required on that crankshaft to dimple your oil pan, extend your inspection cover, and a few other minor modifications.

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:29 am

And the A crank main caps.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:12 am

Michel

would you build a new home on sand? Or would you build a solid foundation first?

Fresh babbit, bored to proper size in a perfect line, exactly proper distance from cam bearing is the basis for any first class engine build.

Pressurized oil will not stiffly support the crank in worn out babbit...with a center bearing most likely well out of line with the front and rear bearings...nor will pressurized oil remove the millions of hard specks embedded in the babbit right now, that are going to scratch and wear your expensive new crank.

IF you have the time and patience and skill (and your time has essentially "0" monetary value), you can scrape your block to straightness and custom order a crank to fit. You may or may not have to order a special cut cam gear if the crank location moved during that work. I did that once just to do it. Never again. That's time out of my life that I'll never get back and could have earned more than the cost of professional babbiting during that time to pay someone to rebabbit and bore my block.

Hank is the go-to guy for advice on go-go equipment, but I'll bet he does it on a good foundation.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:51 am

Scott it appears he is up grading. That part he gave is a stroker cross drilled. I thought the same thing until I looked up the part number. Like minds think the same! Thanks Brother and Merry Christmas in Wyoming!

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:57 am

Hank
So the B210 oil pump. I have one but haven’t started it yet. I’m nervous about the priming aspect. You seem to have experience and I would appreciate your input
Thank you
Les


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Re: Oil pump

Post by bud delong » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:21 pm

I have seen a model T engine that used a plunger oil pump driven off a cam lobe? :D Bud.


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Michel
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Michel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 pm

thanks nice guys for all these useful inputs, I need to work a little more on this subject before making any choice, for sure ...

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Re: Oil pump

Post by walber » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:51 pm

The B210 oil pump is the cat's meow as far as I'm concerned for a performance motor. I've had one on my speedster for over 10 years of some good and occasionally rather strenuous usage. Priming can be an issue but a check valve in the pickup line can resolve that. Even without a check valve, it only takes a few seconds of running to build pressure. I wasn't aware that anyone was producing the adapter plate in recent years but know that a few folks have made one or two for personal use. Would be nice to have an advertised source. Probably not a high volume seller but those folks building "fun" motors might really like them available. Only down sides are the need for a '19 or later block and an alternative charging system (if you need one).


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Erik Barrett » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:39 pm

Les, we built an engine with one of these and have had no priming problems. We primed the pump and lines with heavy weight oil when we built it and have not touched it since. We are careful to watch for pressure on starting.

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:50 pm

Ditto Erik!

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:16 pm

Here is a shot of the B-210 pump I’ve been running on my T for bout 10 years now. Didn’t like the fitting sizes or locations on the adapter pictured above, so made my own. You can see the special built check valve and the bulkhead fitting to pass thru the pan behind the carb air horn. I sumped my pan for several reasons, but it did make ample clearance for the required plumbing.

Pump has never lost its prime over the years, and always provides plenty of pressure 40 psi at idle. And that’s after I cut down the bypass spring to lower the pressure from >60 psi!

Remember that this discussion can have an extreme snowball effect, and is not for the faint of heart. Plan this project carefully, and remember... this is not a speed accessory! This is a required modification only when the engine is expected to perform waaaay beyond its design limits
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:35 pm

Back in the ‘70’s I built a A cranked counterbalanced engine with a VW pump on the back of the camshaft. It is still operational (I sold it over 25 years ago). Thought I would try the B210 pump


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:38 pm

I have never used a check valve on the oil inlet. I’m not saying that the idea doesn’t have merit. I have always “blipped” the throttle on start up.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:34 am

Les,
Not sure if the check valve makes a difference er not... as I’ve never tried without it. But this pump will make pressure after a couple seconds of cranking on a cold motor, and that provides me a bit of security (potentially false) that the countless hours of effort are at least being oiled reliably. I have encountered motors that had priming issues before, and was determined not to have issues with this motor. Check valves are a must in my opinion for any motor where the pump sits above the oil level


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:53 am

Hi
So what type of check valve works best?


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:23 pm

I’ve never come across an “off the shelf” solution that seemed like a good fit. Have seen some as simple as a few strategically assembled pipe fittings. For this motor I wanted something a bit cleaner... and it only cost me dozens of hours...! :roll:

If I remember correctly... there is a captured .500” ball in that aluminum housing that is gravity seated


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:09 pm

Kevin
I have pondered between a ball and a swing check. Thank you for the candid information


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:03 am

Here is a cross sectional view of the check valve in the pic
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Susanne » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:16 pm

Great topic. I'm trying to work out how to rig an oil pump on a pre-19 motor... I have a pre-19 block that's been drilled and tapped for pressure oil but don't have an idea how the person setting this up was planning on pumping oil...

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:34 pm

I will dig one out of my barn stash for you and take photos. Dad made one years back that was belt driven from a small marine brass water pump, worked excellent! He made a by pass switch you depressed on initial start up until oil pressure was achieved, if you loss oil pressure due to a broken belt, engine would kill and red oil light came on. Just ideas!

All the Best,

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:04 pm

A couple of options;
1. A VW beetle pump on the back end of the camshaft. A limitation is that the stock magneto can’t be used
2. A fuel pump driven from a eccentric installed on the camshaft between either cylinder 1&2 or 3&4. A welded up “dog leg” on the fuel pump lever allows the pump to be installed on the side of the pan.
Just a couple more thoughts


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Lessumner » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:24 am

I have made many of these pump set ups for my cars. It is a small gear pump bought at a machinery surplus sale driven off the front of the generator gear. I machined a flat surface on the timing gear cover, fitted a small plate to screw the pump to. A roll pin thru the generator gear fits a slot in the pump shaft. They self prime and I have used one on my Fronty for 35 years trouble free. Les
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:58 am

Very Nice Les!!!!

Hank

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:02 am

Here''s the belt drive system with a water pump. Dad got a little creative so to say, two in one.

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All the Best,

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:04 am

This has developed into a EXCELLENT exchange of experience and ideas. I am grateful to all


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Re: Oil pump

Post by bud delong » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:17 am

The water pump/oil pump combo looks nice as you would still have a generator?? Has anyone ever thought about a battery powered pump in the sump? With 6 or 12 volt you could supply oil before even starting the engine. :? :shock: Bud.

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:35 am

Les like minds gather together and get into trouble together too!

LOL

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:01 pm

Seems to me there was an oil/water pump accessory constructed similar to the one pictured above.

Of course there were a couple 3 in 1 (oil/water/distributor) units available too...

The trait that bugs me the most is the elevation of some of these pumps. Why design problems into the system...? Get that pump as low as possible! And I believe the B-210 pump would be the lowest of all the options discussed so far

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:29 pm

I agree with you Kevin, just a good exchange of ideas. The one I posted works more like a Stark design, low pressure circulatory from normally a reservoir.

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:49 pm

Further to Bud’s comment, I have a electric pump that I have considered installing as a “prelube “ in conjunction with a VW pump on the end of the camshaft. It is certainly capable of my requirements.
It has 3/8” npt connections
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Liberty Garage » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:52 pm

I have been using the Parker diesel fuel check valve on my speedster sumps (suction line) It is a swing type check valve and has 3/8" IP ends . The Parker number is 5135308 and is about $50. 30+ years and no problems. I screw it into a 3/8" x 1/2" pipe bushing and into the sump where I have a long cylindrical screen. Easy to remove during oil change to check for clean.[image][/image]
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:55 pm

Further to Kevin’s comment about elevation, I have a installation mostly done using a Flathead V8 pump on the back end of the camshaft. Yes, Stipe made me a cam with a extended back end.
I also have a era marine conversion that has a pump gear driven by the crank gear.
I guess I need to take some pictures!!

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:01 pm

Meanwhile back in Dr Frankensteins laboratory.......,


This is getting GOOD!

Hank

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:58 pm

I know I've probably beat to death posts of my oil pump alternative, but here they are again. Uses the gears from a small block Chevy, magneto side drive so no generator. Enjoy
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Always looking for vintage Whizzer engines, bikes & parts. What do you have?

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:27 pm

Joe just keep beating me, I love that kind of pain!!!!

Just Beautiful Work, Keep it up!

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:49 pm

Joe
Thank you for the information. I have a set of castings for that design, but had pondered what the best gear choice was!!

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 pm

yes you do. I used the gears, the shaft for the non driven gear and the brass/bronze bushing for the driven gear from the small block Chevy pump. I still has the patterns for the pump/front plate and side drive. I've retired and lost my easy access to all the fun toys needed for the machining. I have no future plans for casting up and machining any additional parts.
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:10 pm

Those VW pumps have great gears in em. Here is a pump I made for a ‘26 Cleveland that utilized the VW gear set. Don’t seem to have a pic of the pump finished...
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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:24 am

Outstanding job. CNC Vertical machining center?
Always looking for vintage Whizzer engines, bikes & parts. What do you have?


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:25 am

Keep it coming PLEASE!!


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Re: Oil pump

Post by bud delong » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:34 am

A lot of very nice machine work!!! I really like the picture of the heavy duty oil pan with all that hanging and all the extra power i think that pan is a good foundation!!! :D Bud.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:38 am

That Cleveland pump was made on my ‘ol Bridgeport type CNC conversion mill. In computer years, it was almost as old as our T’s! I’ve upgraded since (some call it “Millzilla”), to a much more capable and rigid “bed mill” design machine. Not only is it half the age of the ‘ol one, faster, tighter, higher RPM, but also allows to addition of an auxiliary rotary table unit. So far, it does a better job than you want to do without a cabinet around it to contain the mess! ;)
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:58 am

Bud,
Sumping the pan was a bit eerie as I lost the inspection cover... but came to the realization that the motor would simply need to come out if any problems arose. The motor was babbited without shims, so there really is no “maintenance” to be done in there anyway. Knock on wood, the motor hasn’t had to come out after almost 10 years of abuse and neglect. However, I intend to “freshen up” the motor when I change over from the Sherman flathead, to the Akron OHV someday... ;)


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:05 pm

I have never shimmed any of my pressurized T engines.
Kevin I like the “someday “!!


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:13 pm

Les,
Just as all of these modifications are guaranteed to snowball... my Akron OHV project is no exception. I’ve already begun to build a rocker arm conversion for it, and am trying to plan this project as carefully as possible to prevent stalling out😬

Hoping to find 2 Winfield SR-B or BB down drafts to top it off before I’m ready to do “the swap”


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:24 pm

So I have a Gemsa OH which is destined for my aluminum 5 main block. Also it will get the aluminum accessory oil pump water pump mag drive shown above.
After some frustrating chasing around I have started on some rocker arms. Laser cut aluminum. Needle roller bearings and roller chain rollers for the tips. For the adjustments I am robbing the screws from some old ‘60’s era rockers.
For the rocker shafts I thinking of gas nitrided 4140 round bar and I can drill and oil internally.
All supposing it works.
Supposedly Austin Healey rockers are supposed to fit but no luck finding any to measure.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:29 pm

VW pump. What would be the optimum side clearance. I’m thinking about.001?
Radial clearances maybe.002” diametrically.
I know I’m asking the right guys!!


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Re: Oil pump

Post by mountain muncher » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:16 pm

Les,

I think you are right on point with your suggested clearances. When my late father (a German tool and die maker) and I rebuilt the engine of my 1910 Inter-State 40 we had to rebuild the original oil pump. It is a typical gear pump located in-line on the side accessory drive shaft along with the water pump and magneto. It sits at about the same orientation as a B210 pump in relation to the reservoir and pickup. In our case with steel gears and a cast bronze case we incorporated a .001" maximum side clearance and 3/4 to 1 thousandth radial clearance. There are two of these engines still extant and running. The other has not been properly setup in the oil pump and has lost prime and rod babbitt more than once. It now has a series of check valves up and down the system. My engine is without check valves and moves oil immediately. And has operated flawlessly for over 25 years, even with months of down time. Not a pressure system, but no flow is not a good thing.

John Rehberg


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:31 pm

I don’t remember the clearances exactly... but .001” radial clearance sounds bout right. Bout this same time frame, I had to braze up and remachine the oil pump for my Studebaker Avanti as there were no repos available and the OEM pumps were more like POS pumps! I’m sure I used the clearance specs from the Avanti manual when I built the Cleveland pump.

As for your rocker parts, Rocker Arms Unlimited here in Califunny is a great resource for parts. They have many adjuster screws in various sizes, roller tips, shaft bearings/bushings, and shafts as well.

When you do machine your pump, don’t forget the small dimple below the gears to relieve the hydraulic lock in the root of the gears. You can see the dimple in my pic above.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:33 pm

Kevin
I tried RAU but could make no progress. After about 6 months I quietly gave up. That’s life. I can rub people the wrong way!!


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:19 pm

WOW!! I’ve only dealt with them one time... bout 2 weeks ago. I briefly explained my goofy situation, and they were more than happy to accommodate with the parts I needed.

As I understand, they used to be Rocker Arm Specialties, then we’re sold to someone who floundered the business... and then rekindled by the original owner as Rocker Arm Unlimited. I wonder if you had engaged during the “transition”??

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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:31 pm

Les do not feel bad, I was caught up during their turnover era! Hell I could not get help for squat, went ahead and made my own.

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by yukonjack » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:38 pm

Henry K. Lee wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:34 pm
He made a by pass switch you depressed on initial start up until oil pressure was achieved, if you loss oil pressure due to a broken belt, engine would kill and red oil light came on. Just ideas!

All the Best,

Hank
Hank,
For everyone's general interest...
F. W. Murphy still makes their line of Swichgage mechanical pressure and temperature gauges:
https://www.fwmurphy.com/products/gauges
and magnetic switches/latching relays:
https://www.fwmurphy.com/products/contr ... nunciators
Its all old school stuff (no computers involved!), but very durable and dependable; likely also expensive (I just installed them, I didn't pay the bills) but a still a favorite on remote, unmanned engine powered mining and oilfield equipment where reliable shutdown on low oil pressure, high differential pressure (plugged filters), or high temperature trumps all else.
yukonjack

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:44 am

Thanks Jack,

Dad was playing with this one back in the 1980's, pre-internet! Good info, Thanks for sharing, I have seen them on generators etc.

All the Best,

Hank


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:58 pm

We've done more than a few of these over the years!
pump 1a.jpg
pump 1a.jpg (38.88 KiB) Viewed 1317 times
pump 3a.jpg
pump 3a.jpg (26.52 KiB) Viewed 1317 times


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:53 pm

29406727-0C7C-42DD-BE70-9EF5A67BFE47.jpeg
1D2D1D66-5895-4B81-928D-228863482A88.jpeg
C18508EF-FF20-4CC3-9A97-DFB1ECCF7EA8.jpeg
DE194400-97BA-4F31-ABD2-41F71189E47E.jpeg
E84D2E32-6E37-4835-9D11-5B9C826382F3.jpeg
Some oil pump stuff


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:55 pm

F20E1BF4-9F23-4EA5-AC52-6DFBD470BADD.jpeg
Another one


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:00 pm

E8340F8C-E223-46B4-BFC6-3096D7B2195E.jpeg
A converted fuel pump used with the cam eccentric


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Re: Oil pump

Post by kevinf » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:28 pm

Just enjoying the read, and it got me thinking. Has anyone ever made a pump similar to the Ford 8N, it is integral with the front main cap. Pretty small and is driven off the crank gear. I am sure you would have to run a sump, but it works well for lot's of tractors.
Thanks for the indulgence,
Kevin


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Ford-8n-T ... Swq2Nd88Eg

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:03 pm

Dan, do you make your setup with the full spacer when the block is moved forward on the pan? Thanks, Joe
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Dan McEachern » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:05 pm

Joe- I make a version of the pump with a longer shaft so that the pump bracket is mounted on the block spacer rather than the block itself. I hope this answers your question. Dan

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:44 am

Dan, I'll be in touch after the holidays. Thanks
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:15 pm

So I stopped at a local engine rebuild shop and “scrounged” a used small block Chevy pump to examine the gears etc for design purposes. It certainly looks like they will be a good fit for the aluminum castings I have!

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:09 pm

Les, give me a day, but I believe I have the drawings that I used in making the oil pump with the Chevy gears and the castings you have. They are hand drawn (done before I began using CAD).
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Re: Oil pump

Post by civinwt » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:44 pm

When building my engine 30 years ago, I opted for a 4 cyl Cortina (English Ford) geared oil pump with cannister oil filter, in place of the generator. At the time, I had a choice of geared, or vane style oil pumps. No jn line check valve was used, and it has never lost its prime, nor given any trouble. At idle when hot it shows 35+ lbs oil pressure. Only downfall was I had to make a set of gears in order to change direction of rotation of the pump. I will did up a picture of the install when I get a chance.


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:20 pm

Joe
That would be great
Thank you


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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:22 pm

I really appreciate this great exchange of information ideas and experience!!
Thank you all

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Re: Oil pump

Post by henryford2 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:19 pm

Les here you go. I drew these looong ago, I may or may not have updated them after machining the one I made, so proceed cautiously. I do remember I set the end clearance on the gears using a thin metal shim between the cover and the housing. I had lapped the mating surface of each of those, when assembled them with the metal shim I've never had a leak. Enjoy
oil pump .jpg
oil pump 2.jpg
oil pump 3.jpg
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Re: Oil pump

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:28 pm

Joe
Thank you very much


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Re: Oil pump

Post by civinwt » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:10 pm

Finally found a picture of the Cortina oil pump on my '27 engine. Sorry it took so long.
Attachments
DSCN3671.JPG
DSCN3668.JPG
DSCN3670.JPG

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