MTFCA Forum

Rather than rebabbitting I would like to investigate installation of an OIL PUMP, a Lang's counterbalanced crank 3030CBDA (page 62 of the catalog), an oil pump, and so on.

Has someone experienced such transformation ?

Michel,

Here is what will produce the best results but you will need to relocate your generator or install an alternator on a pulley system. If you require one, please contact me though my email provided.

Hope this Helps!

Hank

This is an overhead but gives you the idea. I do have the mounts for flat heads as well.


All the Best,

Hank

You will be required on that crankshaft to dimple your oil pan, extend your inspection cover, and a few other minor modifications.

And the A crank main caps.

Michel

would you build a new home on sand? Or would you build a solid foundation first?

Fresh babbit, bored to proper size in a perfect line, exactly proper distance from cam bearing is the basis for any first class engine build.

Pressurized oil will not stiffly support the crank in worn out babbit...with a center bearing most likely well out of line with the front and rear bearings...nor will pressurized oil remove the millions of hard specks embedded in the babbit right now, that are going to scratch and wear your expensive new crank.

IF you have the time and patience and skill (and your time has essentially "0" monetary value), you can scrape your block to straightness and custom order a crank to fit. You may or may not have to order a special cut cam gear if the crank location moved during that work. I did that once just to do it. Never again. That's time out of my life that I'll never get back and could have earned more than the cost of professional babbiting during that time to pay someone to rebabbit and bore my block.

Hank is the go-to guy for advice on go-go equipment, but I'll bet he does it on a good foundation.

Scott it appears he is up grading. That part he gave is a stroker cross drilled. I thought the same thing until I looked up the part number. Like minds think the same! Thanks Brother and Merry Christmas in Wyoming!

Hank

Hank
So the B210 oil pump. I have one but haven’t started it yet. I’m nervous about the priming aspect. You seem to have experience and I would appreciate your input
Thank you
Les

I have seen a model T engine that used a plunger oil pump driven off a cam lobe? Bud.

thanks nice guys for all these useful inputs, I need to work a little more on this subject before making any choice, for sure ...

The B210 oil pump is the cat's meow as far as I'm concerned for a performance motor. I've had one on my speedster for over 10 years of some good and occasionally rather strenuous usage. Priming can be an issue but a check valve in the pickup line can resolve that. Even without a check valve, it only takes a few seconds of running to build pressure. I wasn't aware that anyone was producing the adapter plate in recent years but know that a few folks have made one or two for personal use. Would be nice to have an advertised source. Probably not a high volume seller but those folks building "fun" motors might really like them available. Only down sides are the need for a '19 or later block and an alternative charging system (if you need one).

Les, we built an engine with one of these and have had no priming problems. We primed the pump and lines with heavy weight oil when we built it and have not touched it since. We are careful to watch for pressure on starting.

Ditto Erik!

Hank

Here is a shot of the B-210 pump I’ve been running on my T for bout 10 years now. Didn’t like the fitting sizes or locations on the adapter pictured above, so made my own. You can see the special built check valve and the bulkhead fitting to pass thru the pan behind the carb air horn. I sumped my pan for several reasons, but it did make ample clearance for the required plumbing.

Pump has never lost its prime over the years, and always provides plenty of pressure 40 psi at idle. And that’s after I cut down the bypass spring to lower the pressure from >60 psi!

Remember that this discussion can have an extreme snowball effect, and is not for the faint of heart. Plan this project carefully, and remember... this is not a speed accessory! This is a required modification only when the engine is expected to perform waaaay beyond its design limits

Back in the ‘70’s I built a A cranked counterbalanced engine with a VW pump on the back of the camshaft. It is still operational (I sold it over 25 years ago). Thought I would try the B210 pump

I have never used a check valve on the oil inlet. I’m not saying that the idea doesn’t have merit. I have always “blipped” the throttle on start up.

Les,
Not sure if the check valve makes a difference er not... as I’ve never tried without it. But this pump will make pressure after a couple seconds of cranking on a cold motor, and that provides me a bit of security (potentially false) that the countless hours of effort are at least being oiled reliably. I have encountered motors that had priming issues before, and was determined not to have issues with this motor. Check valves are a must in my opinion for any motor where the pump sits above the oil level

Hi
So what type of check valve works best?

I’ve never come across an “off the shelf” solution that seemed like a good fit. Have seen some as simple as a few strategically assembled pipe fittings. For this motor I wanted something a bit cleaner... and it only cost me dozens of hours...!

If I remember correctly... there is a captured .500” ball in that aluminum housing that is gravity seated

Kevin
I have pondered between a ball and a swing check. Thank you for the candid information

Here is a cross sectional view of the check valve in the pic

Great topic. I'm trying to work out how to rig an oil pump on a pre-19 motor... I have a pre-19 block that's been drilled and tapped for pressure oil but don't have an idea how the person setting this up was planning on pumping oil...

I will dig one out of my barn stash for you and take photos. Dad made one years back that was belt driven from a small marine brass water pump, worked excellent! He made a by pass switch you depressed on initial start up until oil pressure was achieved, if you loss oil pressure due to a broken belt, engine would kill and red oil light came on. Just ideas!

All the Best,

Hank

A couple of options;
1. A VW beetle pump on the back end of the camshaft. A limitation is that the stock magneto can’t be used
2. A fuel pump driven from a eccentric installed on the camshaft between either cylinder 1&2 or 3&4. A welded up “dog leg” on the fuel pump lever allows the pump to be installed on the side of the pan.
Just a couple more thoughts

I have made many of these pump set ups for my cars. It is a small gear pump bought at a machinery surplus sale driven off the front of the generator gear. I machined a flat surface on the timing gear cover, fitted a small plate to screw the pump to. A roll pin thru the generator gear fits a slot in the pump shaft. They self prime and I have used one on my Fronty for 35 years trouble free. Les

Very Nice Les!!!!

Hank

Here''s the belt drive system with a water pump. Dad got a little creative so to say, two in one.


All the Best,

Hank

This has developed into a EXCELLENT exchange of experience and ideas. I am grateful to all

The water pump/oil pump combo looks nice as you would still have a generator?? Has anyone ever thought about a battery powered pump in the sump? With 6 or 12 volt you could supply oil before even starting the engine. Bud.

Les like minds gather together and get into trouble together too!

LOL

Hank

Seems to me there was an oil/water pump accessory constructed similar to the one pictured above.

Of course there were a couple 3 in 1 (oil/water/distributor) units available too...

The trait that bugs me the most is the elevation of some of these pumps. Why design problems into the system...? Get that pump as low as possible! And I believe the B-210 pump would be the lowest of all the options discussed so far

I agree with you Kevin, just a good exchange of ideas. The one I posted works more like a Stark design, low pressure circulatory from normally a reservoir.

Hank

Further to Bud’s comment, I have a electric pump that I have considered installing as a “prelube “ in conjunction with a VW pump on the end of the camshaft. It is certainly capable of my requirements.
It has 3/8” npt connections

I have been using the Parker diesel fuel check valve on my speedster sumps (suction line) It is a swing type check valve and has 3/8" IP ends . The Parker number is 5135308 and is about $50. 30+ years and no problems. I screw it into a 3/8" x 1/2" pipe bushing and into the sump where I have a long cylindrical screen. Easy to remove during oil change to check for clean.[image][/image]

Further to Kevin’s comment about elevation, I have a installation mostly done using a Flathead V8 pump on the back end of the camshaft. Yes, Stipe made me a cam with a extended back end.
I also have a era marine conversion that has a pump gear driven by the crank gear.
I guess I need to take some pictures!!

Meanwhile back in Dr Frankensteins laboratory.......,


This is getting GOOD!

Hank

I know I've probably beat to death posts of my oil pump alternative, but here they are again. Uses the gears from a small block Chevy, magneto side drive so no generator. Enjoy

Joe just keep beating me, I love that kind of pain!!!!

Just Beautiful Work, Keep it up!

Hank

Joe
Thank you for the information. I have a set of castings for that design, but had pondered what the best gear choice was!!

yes you do. I used the gears, the shaft for the non driven gear and the brass/bronze bushing for the driven gear from the small block Chevy pump. I still has the patterns for the pump/front plate and side drive. I've retired and lost my easy access to all the fun toys needed for the machining. I have no future plans for casting up and machining any additional parts.

Those VW pumps have great gears in em. Here is a pump I made for a ‘26 Cleveland that utilized the VW gear set. Don’t seem to have a pic of the pump finished...

Outstanding job. CNC Vertical machining center?

Keep it coming PLEASE!!

A lot of very nice machine work!!! I really like the picture of the heavy duty oil pan with all that hanging and all the extra power i think that pan is a good foundation!!! Bud.

That Cleveland pump was made on my ‘ol Bridgeport type CNC conversion mill. In computer years, it was almost as old as our T’s! I’ve upgraded since (some call it “Millzilla”), to a much more capable and rigid “bed mill” design machine. Not only is it half the age of the ‘ol one, faster, tighter, higher RPM, but also allows to addition of an auxiliary rotary table unit. So far, it does a better job than you want to do without a cabinet around it to contain the mess!

Bud,
Sumping the pan was a bit eerie as I lost the inspection cover... but came to the realization that the motor would simply need to come out if any problems arose. The motor was babbited without shims, so there really is no “maintenance” to be done in there anyway. Knock on wood, the motor hasn’t had to come out after almost 10 years of abuse and neglect. However, I intend to “freshen up” the motor when I change over from the Sherman flathead, to the Akron OHV someday...

I have never shimmed any of my pressurized T engines.
Kevin I like the “someday “!!

Les,
Just as all of these modifications are guaranteed to snowball... my Akron OHV project is no exception. I’ve already begun to build a rocker arm conversion for it, and am trying to plan this project as carefully as possible to prevent stalling out

Hoping to find 2 Winfield SR-B or BB down drafts to top it off before I’m ready to do “the swap”

So I have a Gemsa OH which is destined for my aluminum 5 main block. Also it will get the aluminum accessory oil pump water pump mag drive shown above.
After some frustrating chasing around I have started on some rocker arms. Laser cut aluminum. Needle roller bearings and roller chain rollers for the tips. For the adjustments I am robbing the screws from some old ‘60’s era rockers.
For the rocker shafts I thinking of gas nitrided 4140 round bar and I can drill and oil internally.
All supposing it works.
Supposedly Austin Healey rockers are supposed to fit but no luck finding any to measure.

VW pump. What would be the optimum side clearance. I’m thinking about.001?
Radial clearances maybe.002” diametrically.
I know I’m asking the right guys!!

Les,

I think you are right on point with your suggested clearances. When my late father (a German tool and die maker) and I rebuilt the engine of my 1910 Inter-State 40 we had to rebuild the original oil pump. It is a typical gear pump located in-line on the side accessory drive shaft along with the water pump and magneto. It sits at about the same orientation as a B210 pump in relation to the reservoir and pickup. In our case with steel gears and a cast bronze case we incorporated a .001" maximum side clearance and 3/4 to 1 thousandth radial clearance. There are two of these engines still extant and running. The other has not been properly setup in the oil pump and has lost prime and rod babbitt more than once. It now has a series of check valves up and down the system. My engine is without check valves and moves oil immediately. And has operated flawlessly for over 25 years, even with months of down time. Not a pressure system, but no flow is not a good thing.

John Rehberg

I don’t remember the clearances exactly... but .001” radial clearance sounds bout right. Bout this same time frame, I had to braze up and remachine the oil pump for my Studebaker Avanti as there were no repos available and the OEM pumps were more like POS pumps! I’m sure I used the clearance specs from the Avanti manual when I built the Cleveland pump.

As for your rocker parts, Rocker Arms Unlimited here in Califunny is a great resource for parts. They have many adjuster screws in various sizes, roller tips, shaft bearings/bushings, and shafts as well.

When you do machine your pump, don’t forget the small dimple below the gears to relieve the hydraulic lock in the root of the gears. You can see the dimple in my pic above.

Kevin
I tried RAU but could make no progress. After about 6 months I quietly gave up. That’s life. I can rub people the wrong way!!

WOW!! I’ve only dealt with them one time... bout 2 weeks ago. I briefly explained my goofy situation, and they were more than happy to accommodate with the parts I needed.

As I understand, they used to be Rocker Arm Specialties, then we’re sold to someone who floundered the business... and then rekindled by the original owner as Rocker Arm Unlimited. I wonder if you had engaged during the “transition”??

Les do not feel bad, I was caught up during their turnover era! Hell I could not get help for squat, went ahead and made my own.

Hank

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:34 pm

He made a by pass switch you depressed on initial start up until oil pressure was achieved, if you loss oil pressure due to a broken belt, engine would kill and red oil light came on. Just ideas!

All the Best,

Hank

Hank,
For everyone's general interest...
F. W. Murphy still makes their line of Swichgage mechanical pressure and temperature gauges:
https://www.fwmurphy.com/products/gauges
and magnetic switches/latching relays:
https://www.fwmurphy.com/products/contr ... nunciators
Its all old school stuff (no computers involved!), but very durable and dependable; likely also expensive (I just installed them, I didn't pay the bills) but a still a favorite on remote, unmanned engine powered mining and oilfield equipment where reliable shutdown on low oil pressure, high differential pressure (plugged filters), or high temperature trumps all else.
yukonjack

Thanks Jack,

Dad was playing with this one back in the 1980's, pre-internet! Good info, Thanks for sharing, I have seen them on generators etc.

All the Best,

Hank

We've done more than a few of these over the years!

Some oil pump stuff

Another one

A converted fuel pump used with the cam eccentric

Just enjoying the read, and it got me thinking. Has anyone ever made a pump similar to the Ford 8N, it is integral with the front main cap. Pretty small and is driven off the crank gear. I am sure you would have to run a sump, but it works well for lot's of tractors.
Thanks for the indulgence,
Kevin


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Ford-8n-T ... Swq2Nd88Eg

Dan, do you make your setup with the full spacer when the block is moved forward on the pan? Thanks, Joe

Joe- I make a version of the pump with a longer shaft so that the pump bracket is mounted on the block spacer rather than the block itself. I hope this answers your question. Dan

Dan, I'll be in touch after the holidays. Thanks

So I stopped at a local engine rebuild shop and “scrounged” a used small block Chevy pump to examine the gears etc for design purposes. It certainly looks like they will be a good fit for the aluminum castings I have!

Les, give me a day, but I believe I have the drawings that I used in making the oil pump with the Chevy gears and the castings you have. They are hand drawn (done before I began using CAD).

When building my engine 30 years ago, I opted for a 4 cyl Cortina (English Ford) geared oil pump with cannister oil filter, in place of the generator. At the time, I had a choice of geared, or vane style oil pumps. No jn line check valve was used, and it has never lost its prime, nor given any trouble. At idle when hot it shows 35+ lbs oil pressure. Only downfall was I had to make a set of gears in order to change direction of rotation of the pump. I will did up a picture of the install when I get a chance.

Joe
That would be great
Thank you

I really appreciate this great exchange of information ideas and experience!!
Thank you all

Les here you go. I drew these looong ago, I may or may not have updated them after machining the one I made, so proceed cautiously. I do remember I set the end clearance on the gears using a thin metal shim between the cover and the housing. I had lapped the mating surface of each of those, when assembled them with the metal shim I've never had a leak. Enjoy

Joe
Thank you very much

Finally found a picture of the Cortina oil pump on my '27 engine. Sorry it took so long.