fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

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tdump
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fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:27 pm

I have tore the internet apart looking for a video showing how from start to finish to fit the crankshaft to the mains when refreshing a engine. I have rebabbited caps, and the babbit in the 26 block seems smooth,and the oil groove is deep.But I need to get someone else to measure the crank as I can't seem to get it right.seems to be bigger than standard on part and standard on other as turning the calipers.Can't be doing it right. I have a bearing scraper coming from ebay,plus a tube of persian blue and I have a shim set from Smith and jones,and a few extra shims.
There is plenty of typed words, plenty of pictures. And videos of pouring bearings. But I know this is something that needs to be done right or I will ruin something.And I know It can be done,i just need to see someone doing it.
So for me,a video I could watch several times over the course of a couple days to be able to absorb the info would be great.
I have rebabbited rods ready to and i found a quick 2 minute video on youtube of a person scraping a high spot from a bearing cap.But I need to see the angle the tool is held,the amount of effort applied and so on.I need to watch it done.Or if there was someone within a couple 100 miles of me,I would load all this up and take a road trip. I just want this engine back together and don't think it needs rebabbting. The front main,is not rough feeling,it is a discoloring that the camera amplified.
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Last edited by tdump on Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Russ T Fender
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Russ T Fender » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:42 pm

For what it's worth, I gave up scraping bearing years ago in favor of time saver. It is easy to use and gives very good results. As far as the crank journal is concerned you definitely don't want it out of round or tapered so you certainly don't want to try to fit the bearing until you have that sorted out. Any machine shop should be able to check the crank for you but if it needs machining you should find someone who is experienced in grinding T cranks in order to get it done properly.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:46 pm

I have time saver to but just piddleing last night with the front main, it tightened up and it is just the very outer edge near the inner edge of the crank that is contacting,it would take alot of timesaver to get all that down. If the crank is turned,that automaticaly means a repore on the bearings right?
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by CudaMan » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:52 pm

Mark Strange
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1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Russ T Fender » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:52 pm

Are you looking for a driver or just occasional use? If the latter you might be able to get away without cutting the crank if it is a bit tapered but the first thing you need to do is get the proper measurements so you know what you are dealing with. It's mostly a question of how long the repair will last or how long it will take for the crank to snap. You have everything apart now and the process is difficult enough that it doesn't make sense doing it half way only to have to do it again in a short time.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:58 pm

Mack, I too am concerned about the "feel" you got with the calipers. The size and shape of the journals is critical. Oval and taper really need to be within (less than) .0005, (about a half of one thousandth!) to be worth refitting. I got lucky a couple decades ago and found a very old crank journal cutting tool at a garage sale. While generally speaking not a great way to cut a crankshaft for a rebuild, I find it can do a fine job of fixing a minor taper or bringing a bit of oval into spec.
For general information, such cutters are not adequate for good rebuild cutting or correcting severe issues because they are "self centering" and wear or damage is usually off center. Using these simple cutters will usually end up off center or slightly crooked. Proper regrinding needs to be done on a proper crank grinding machine that can be indexed and correct offset wear or damage. Russ T Fender's comment about finding a machinist that is used to grinding model T cranks is related. Model T cranks have just enough flex that many modern shops used to heavy modern crankshafts will try to grind (cut) too fast and deep. The T crankshaft will flex under the machine's pressure, and the cut will wind up off center!

First and foremost, make sure that the crankshaft you are going to use is good enough. And that means PRETTY DARN GOOD!

Once you are past that hurdle, the most important advice is to take your time, cut slowly, and measure very often!
Good bearing cutters can cut both directions, have a straight area to shave long areas of the Babbitt, and curved areas to cut in and remove major high spots.
While not generally favored, a large rat-tail course file can be used to bring the overall shape in more quickly. Good fine emery paper can be used for final smoothing and polishing, HOWEVER, be certain to clean the bearing thoroughly and leave NO bit of abrasive behind around the Babbitt or block.

Be VERY careful to keep the block's three mains in line and straight! Not easy, but check the line up-down and sideways often with a very good straight edge. Be especially careful with the center main. It has a tendency to wear more than either the front or rear main bearings do. So usually a bit more cutting is needed on both the front and rear bearings to bring them all in line. Be careful, and check the fit also, to not cut the bearings too deep into the block. That can result in issues with the timing gears.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:32 pm

I've been hesitant to weigh in on this, in that it seems that none of the necessary measuring tools and perhaps others are available for this job. That said, I'll state that Wayne is right on with the warning of the center main. If a drop indicator is not used, and force applied to the center main, one can not tell how far "up" it's been pounded by the crank...it might not even be worth the time to scrape the front/rear bearings to drop the crank sufficiently to bring things in line. Additionally, there is a strong likelihood that the crank is bent some and these two things could well account for the one bearing seeming to contact only at the corner.

I just completed a job exactly like this (for myself) and had to drop front and rear bearings around .005" to even begin to contact the center main. It was not a pleasant job and certainly was not something anyone in their right mind would do for $$.

My crank was bent about .006" and took a deflection in the press a significant "overshoot" several times to bring things within .0005". And that was after sitting for 2-3 days, as some of the bow came back in that time (about .0015")...it took two different presses on two different days to get to .0005".

It wasn't until then that I could begin to scrape and brother, I had to handle it carefully to keep from "bouncing" when checking front/rear mains until it finally contacted center main.

Not a job for the impatient, faint-of-heart or ill-equipped.

Best of luck Mack (try to get some help)
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:31 pm

Well,I watched a couple of the videos. I saw how they turned the crank checking it for tightness and such.

The method of measureing I think was my issue.My calipers are cheapos. It is hard to explain,but I will say,it was user error with the measureing.


I went down to the shop and I decided to check something. I took a main cap,and I held that cap down hard as I could with 1 hand and turned the crank.I figured if it was as bad tapered as my silly readings were indicating,I should be able to feel it raise the cap. I did not..I assembled the crankshaft to the block with the new shims which were around .018 or so accordning to my cheapo tool.I put some 60 grit time saver under them and turned the crank some ,cleaned it and . I then used the finer grit.
I took it apart,cleaned everything.And the rear main on the crank was grey and no shiny spots, the center was mostly grey with a litle shine here and there.The front was mostly grey. I decided,nothing to loose by trying,I did not scrape anything. To get the rear main to seize with a piece of news paper,it has .011 worth of shims. Now until today I had totally forgot that Jack Daron had sent me a nice rebabbited rear main cap probably back in 2008 or so. So that is the 1 I used. It had been cut to the right size and such for the end play.If I have any end play it aint much.
On the middle bearing,.007 in shims and with a peice of paper,it was tight,but not seized.I had not read the new entrys on this thread at that time.I will reread all the stuff above and see if that is to much or to little shim or something.
The front main,has about .0135 in shims.

Now when I turn the crank,it turns smooth,all the way around. Forgive me if I am not making sense,something slipped while I was tighting a main and it wretched my back bad and I am gritting my teeth to keep from squalling right now. :!:

The way I look at it,nothing I did today hurt anything or is irreversable. So I will let you folks read this and then come back with opionions.
I can turn the crank fairly smooth with a rod stuck in the front hole of the crankshaft.Not sloppy loose,the weight of the rod will not turn the crank.
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:25 am

When I got up this morning I realized I had not mentioned that I had used the rebabbited rear main from Jack Daron I got years ago and the 2 others were the mains that were from the block originally.
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Joe Bell » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:04 am

As inexpensive as the rebabbitting the bottom end is I would not waist my time on trying to fit another crank in the block, More than likely the center main has been hammered out or if you get the mics out the crank is out of round 1 1/2 thous and all the work you spent on it was just waisted time. I good bottom end is the best starting point of a good engine. If you are wanting to hog pog it pull some shims slap it back together and a few months you can tear it back down. I have been there and done this in my early days, now i just like to tour all the time instead of wrenching on them. Just my thoughts!


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:14 pm

The bearing scraper thing came in the mail yesterday.I have not saw a need for it as I thought I would.

Well this thing will get drove a few miles to a local cruise in,To breakfast once in a while, maby a short day tour with the club once a year. If I had a small fortune I would get me 1 of those Scat cranks and insert bearings and a oil pump! :mrgreen: Then I could be like Fast Frank! :lol:
Honestly I appreciate the help and advice.I know I am not doing this the "professional" way or the "best" way.But I can't imagine every farmer back in the day being so particular that .0001 was going to shake him up. They have run for a 100 years!.
My grandpal drove a Model A back and forth from Charlotte to Charleston SC and would have to stop and put a shoe tongue in a rod to get home.My dad would help him lap the valves and replace the rods and stuff every saterday so he could drive back on sunday afternoon and sleep in the car until monday morning to work in the ship yard.
I did the finaly assemble on those mains this morning with a bunch of oil in them..My dad,that has been a mechanic his whole life and is 85,felt of it and said,"if you get that any tighter the *#*# thing is going to get hot and lock down!". I did remove 1 thin shim from the front,this morning when I put it back together.
.I took the cam out and the lifters and such to check things over. It was then I realized I had already done the valves back in 07 or so. But I am still glad I did.I had used lithum grease for prelube on the lifters and it was bunched up under them.It was hard to remove so if a chunk had got loose, it coulda stopped up a oil port.
I cleaned up the valves again, did a quick lap and will be installing and checking those this evening.
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:06 pm

Ok,I have put the rods to the crankshaft,torqued to 30 pounds. A peice of news paper siezes them,remove it and the rods are free to move.I think that is close.Each of the rods has .020 in shims.only 1 rod,number 2,did i have remove about .002 or so to keep it like the others. Best I can tell the rod bearings on the crank measure 1.243 to 1.245 or so,
I did find 3 bolts in the rebuilt rods had to be replaced as when I took the nuts off the rod bolts they were way to tight.
and stripped the threads when I went back to torque them.I had plenty so no biggie.
Cam gear was changed for a almost perfect 1 on the crankshaft this morning.Fits good to the NOS Ford gear I found somewhere 10 years ago or more. Valves come up a 1/4 inch, I set the clearance to .014 to .015 .I looked around on the old forums and .010 and .012 were listed alot,but then others were saying more.Chaffins catalot says .015 so I went with that.
The rod bearing has had some 100 grit timesaver on it for a few back and forth waves of the rod on the crank shaft. Turned out grey all over! Strange,I would have expected shiny spots!
My next concern is trying to get the wrist pin bolts to stay.I read some argueing on the old forum about wire and cotter pins ,sheesh,couldnt make heads nor tails.
I also had bought some dippers for the rods,my rods are not even x'ed.
I never could find a definate answer as to rather to x them or not,drill them for dippers,just a bunch of back and forth So I may just not do any of it and run as Ford made it. The rods were old stock from a Napa store .Raylock rebuilt is in yellow on the rod.
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Duey_C » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:51 pm

Looks good Mack!
Let us know how your work turned out. :)
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Joe Bell » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:46 pm

Get rid of the two piece valves before they break off and ruin your day.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by wayne sheldon » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:50 am

Looking good so far Mack!
To echo what Joe Bell said, IF that is a two-piece valve, get rid of it! Of course, that goes for any two-piece valves in any engine you plan to actually drive. However, be aware, not all valves with two little holes on the top of the head are in fact "two-piece". Good (so-called) "one-piece" valves where made and sold as far back as the late '10s as replacements for model T Fords. And they continued to be made up into the 1960s that way.
Personally, I use good looking one-piece valves with two holes in the head.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:57 am

Where are they put together? I cleaned each 1 and they seem to be seemless all the way.I had read about a 2 peice valve but these are made like a old briggs and stratton valve. Can someone show me a picture of the joint in the valve?
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:51 am

Here's where those 2 pc. valves are put together and they do have a tendency to "come from together" !!!
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by tdump » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:05 pm

I stuck a camera in a hole and came up with this. I hope they are not bad 1s as they are good and thick and could be refaced a couple more times.
I was so tickled when I noticed they weren't thin and ready to burn.
Looks like all that is avalaible new is stainless steel at 8.50 a pop! Stainless for a valve?
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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Kohnke Rebabbitting » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:06 pm

1. Stainless steel valves should 0nly, and Always, be used in place of anything lesser. Ford recommended that valves should be reground every 3 months, with normal driving, every day. That was the cast iron head one. When a valve starts to burn, it is only the valve head that is affected, and as it advances, it will take the cast iron seat, or block valve cast. So, if the valve don't start to burn, the seat will not be affected.

2. For 55 years, we have kept all the wrist pin bolts tight in the rods, with Lock Washers. They should always be of good quality, New Ones. Do NOT use repro wrist pin bolts, they are junk, as they snap. Defective Hardening! Do Not use wire, or Cotter Keys.

Herm.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Kerry » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm

Well Herm, USA Ford specs must differ from ours, decarboning about every 5000 miles and valve grind occasionally, a far cry from ripping into the engine every 3 months.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Kohnke Rebabbitting » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:53 pm

Kerry wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Well Herm, USA Ford specs must differ from ours, decarboning about every 5000 miles and valve grind occasionally, a far cry from ripping into the engine every 3 months.
Well, as usual, Kangaroo Dundee, you twisted what I said, and added your own crap. No where did I mention decarbonizing, and I like my spelling, of that word,better then yours.

Also, to work on valves, you don't have to do any Ripping into a engine. You sure do need, some kind of instructions to follow or you will have ripped motor, all over the place.

I would tell you to go back and read my post over, but it would be like getting a motor rebuilt, and the babbitt went out in a 100 miles, and you took it back to him to fix, expecting a different result!

What I clearly said, " Ford recommended that valves should be reground every 3 months, with normal driving, every day. " I will stand by that, as I read that many years ago, in Fords own literature.

What I did say "That was the cast iron head one, valve that is. If you use, Stainless Steel Valves, and hard seats, if installed right, they should last the life of the motor.

Also , Model T's, were known for sticky valves, especially setting over winter, and ever so light at first, will start burning them. You can save your self some grief by using Mystery Oil, at a time like that. If they are stored in an out building, we run a half of an oil can, through the carburetor, and then shut it off, until spring.

Carbon build up is non existent, if plugs run a clean Gray, white is ok, but they are running a little lean. If the plugs are sooty you are going to get carbon build up from gas, leaky gaskets, carb., to rich, or not working right, not hot enough plug, oil pumping, is the worst. Can be lots of things.

Herm.


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Re: fitting crankshaft mains,bearing scrapeing

Post by Kerry » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:54 pm

What.???? To much eggnog! Herm, merry Christmas :D

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