Steering column

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:05 pm

I stripped out a later model column today mainly for the sheet metal column. I have a saw cut brass quadrant and gear case I am thinking of dissecting and using for my speedster column. Will the new 5/1 shaft and gears work with this combo? I have read that the new stuff is tight in the older brass gearbox?


John kuehn
Posts: 677
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Steering column

Post by John kuehn » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:39 pm

I think the older brass cases didn’t have the routed out section of the case to use the oversteering stop pin the later ones did. I haven’t tried to make the change over but earlier forum posts have some not having much fit up trouble and others having to use timesaver compound to fit the gears better in the case. Maybe someone on the forum.has the earlier brass case and used the new set up in it with no trouble and without the oversteering pin it it. There have several earlier threads about doing it.


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:40 pm

I found this last thread answering Some of my questions

https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... umn#p63541


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:44 pm

The brass case I have does not have the routed out overtravel groove. I have no clue what year it is. I will take some picks


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:13 pm

E739A563-CD2A-4857-B42B-A609E2A51F37.jpeg
F439AF7F-3A32-4683-8617-4794D8ED433E.jpeg
6F5F3E3F-D5E9-443C-9FCD-E37D6226BE8B.jpeg


Jack Putnam, in Ohio
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:19 pm
First Name: Jack
Last Name: Putnam
Location: Bluffton, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 13833
MTFCI Number: 13353

Re: Steering column

Post by Jack Putnam, in Ohio » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:37 pm

When fitting new gears and shaft in an original case I prefer to use valve grinding compound to remove any high spots on tight fitting gears. I assemble the components of the steering column dry on the bench and then put a generous amount of grinding compound to the gears themselves. Then rotate the shaft until it turns freely. Once grinding is complete, remove the parts and wash out all grinding compound and reassemble with grease. IMO timesaver will not cut as needed and is not worth the effort to get a good fitting gear case.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Steering column

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm

Well, it looks like someone cut up a very early pre-'15 column

I can almost guarantee that someone would trade you a working, complete steering column for that quadrant and steering case.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:40 am

Scott
I am building a somewhat brass race car replica. I am trying to keep with the brass as much as I can.

User avatar

George House
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
First Name: George
Last Name: House
Location: northern Caldwell county TX
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Steering column

Post by George House » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:59 am

.....yet another frankenstein T.....
I’d Rather Suffer Much In Good Company Than To Live Comfortably With Delicate Men..

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Steering column

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:30 pm

Blame these guys....
vt.jpg
vt3.jpg
paco.jpg
Frontenac.jpg


Dropacent
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Not nice

Post by Dropacent » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:59 pm

That’s not a very nice thing to say, George. Back in the teens and twenty’s there were thousands of Bugs , put together lovingly by young men desperate to have an automobile, and I’d guess most if not all were very proud of them. Assembled with whatever they could get their hands on. I have an ancestor that was known to have the fastest Bug in southern Lorain county! People can assemble these things today and be very era correct, and I sure don’t think they are frankensteins, and in fact, some can be worth much more than a stock T, and IMHO , more fun to look at.


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:25 pm

0F6A922D-FCD3-43BC-8D8D-5F8F1D1D9AB7.jpeg
0F6A922D-FCD3-43BC-8D8D-5F8F1D1D9AB7.jpeg (38.89 KiB) Viewed 863 times

User avatar

George House
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
First Name: George
Last Name: House
Location: northern Caldwell county TX
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Steering column

Post by George House » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:23 pm

That’s fine Tim...”not a very nice thing to say”....and my opinion is that cutting the sheet metal column of a pre 1915 T is not a very nice thing to do - especially when the bling bling is to be grafted onto a ‘New and Improved’ square flange steering tube.
I’d Rather Suffer Much In Good Company Than To Live Comfortably With Delicate Men..


Dropacent
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Steering column

Post by Dropacent » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:33 pm

I’m not here to defend Danny. I did , however , re-read his post and he doesn’t say he cut the early column, and he doesn’t say he’s using a square column base. If those prejudgements make you feel better, then fine. I know Danny and he’s a nice young man very interested in Ts and will do something very nice with his project. Sounds to me like he’s doing just what a young feller in the old days would do. I’m in the club of “when you own it, you can do whatever you want with it” I just sold an early gear case and quadrant, without any care of what the new owner was going to do with it. I’ll leave the policing to the Correct Police !


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:41 pm

So George, the brass quadrant will not fit on the later column? I haven’t tried it yet.
And yes, I bought the quadrant cut. I’m sharing my build frame up with the guys on the vintage ford forum with nothing but good comments. I built a fordor model A old school hot rod from the frame up old school. I have a sweet stock restored 31 deluxe roadster. This is a learning curve starting a model t build, and yes I am building what interests me at the moment. Maybe next a nice stock t? Who knows. I like them all.


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:48 pm

9A904661-FBAD-45EB-9207-0278B5386361.jpeg
F1DB4775-BBC3-4DCC-9567-7ADD27E0E27C.jpeg


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:50 pm

36E814CB-29E7-42AB-868B-CB8DC12CF1EB.jpeg


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1282
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Steering column

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:11 pm

I have restored and enjoyed several speedsters over the years. More than most, I try to keep the speedsters I have really close to correct for the years they represent. Personally, I prefer for them to have a quality (or lack thereof?) that they would have likely had back in their day (not the worst end of quality, but not over-restored either). But that is me.
If you are trying to make the car "era correct", then using the early gear-case would be the proper way to go. However, if your intention is to build a "brass era" speedster in the modern sense, where later engine and rear end, under axle wishbone, demountable (or even '20s style wire) wheels are used? I would recommend not using the early style gear-case. For a couple different reasons. One being safety. the early riveted together gear-case can and sometimes does shear, suddenly leaving the car without steering. Yes that is a rare occurrence. But speedsters being driven faster and harder than most brass era cars increases that risk considerably. IF (my big IF again) most of the car is not going to be "era correct", it is foolhardy to used a gear-case that adds that risk. IF you are going to make and keep it "era correct, then, even though most people will not know the difference, just knowing your car is that correct is worth the added risk. Besides, if you treat the car as a "brass era antique"? You probably won't push it that hard either.
The other reason to not use it, closely related, is that such a rare and desirable part should maybe be kept aside to use on a "proper" brass era car. The also closely related flip side of that coin is that if you are making the car "era correct"? That piece does in fact belong on the car.

As an aside comment. There is really nothing at all wrong with building a brass speedster, using a bunch of reproduction brass bling, repro hood and fenders, modern repro body kit, a mostly '20s chassis and wheels etc etc etc. Such cars can look great, and be a lot of fun! I love tours and endurance runs with a bunch of cars like that participating. They look and sound wonderful running down the back roads. It just becomes pointless to use a rare and valuable part on such a car


tdump
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm
First Name: Mack
Last Name: Cole
Location: North Carolina

Re: Steering column

Post by tdump » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:06 pm

A short cut to having a brass quadrent is to use a newer style that was nickle plated and polish the nickle off.That is what I did on my pickup project steering.
Attachments
Dc556.JPG
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'

User avatar

Corey Walker
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 am
First Name: Corey
Last Name: Walker
Location: Brownsboro, TX

Re: Steering column

Post by Corey Walker » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:09 pm

Along the lines of what Wayne said, I’ve got this column with a later one piece gear box and reproduction brass quadrant that I’m going to use on a speedster. You can tell it doesn’t belong together but it’s similar and nobody but T people will know. I had it in my 1914 until I found an original column for it.
Attachments
72939842-6C48-4501-9D3C-1ED027DBF857.jpeg
Corey Walker, Brownsboro, Texas

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Steering column

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:10 pm

It really follows the rules of "To each their own". As Mother use to say, "If you do not have something nice to say, say nothing at all". I applaud anyone willing to build a Model T from nothing of missed match parts etc. Why? Simple, it shows the person is interested in the full assembly and create their own interpretation of a Speedster. I have been criticized beyond words that are inappropriate on this forum for doing just that stated above.

I told others as I am going to say here, "Fine, you buy up all those parts that you say are rare, store them in a big warehouse or whatever and supply the needs to keep them all going at a reasonable price". They shut up real quick. Don't judge unless you are willing to be judged. People whom powder coat wheels on an award winning car. How? It is not original paint, it is charged plastic dust is a perfect example.

The Model T hobby as we all know is losing interest at a rate years back no one saw coming. If, a person is willing to build one up from parts and shows interest in a one of a kind car, support it. Do not be so critical as you will send that person away. Grumpy old men in set ways I respect, Grumpy old men pissing people off I have no love for nor time. There is not enough parts around by the critic's standards to build original cars. I say this as well, always reach out to help a person in need is a future friend indeed. Hey, it sounds corny like Casper the Friendly Ghost, but it is the truth. We must all do our part and remind ourselves time to time we are a club that requires mentorship in trust, support, friendship, and even in the times of change accept certain things to keep the interest alive.

I have this smile on my face because of a new outlook on life and new friends here I have found from mutual respect and interest.

DSC00923 2.jpeg

All the Very Best to All!

Hank in Tin-A-See


tdump
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm
First Name: Mack
Last Name: Cole
Location: North Carolina

Re: Steering column

Post by tdump » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:27 pm

Good way to put it Henry.
There are some folks out there,that will wait 3 years to find the "correct" bolts for the running boards of a 1911.I know,I overheard the guy say it at a meeting. 3 years,he could have had his car much further along assembly wise,and simply go back later and swap the dang bolts!
I want to drive the da-- thing before I kill over.not spend my last days scratching thru the internet for a certian correct for the 3rd of June 1923 horn button mounting screw.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


autoneer
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:46 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Beaumont
Location: Gardnerville NV 89460
Contact:

Re: Steering column

Post by autoneer » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:02 pm

I have used later gear sets in earlier columns, to gain better steering, as I drive my cars. The earlier brass riveted gearboxes have deeper cut internal gears, and the later gears will not drop in. Get a later case that they will, measure the ID across opposing gear teeth, and turn out the few thousandths of the earlier gear case in a lathe to match, then do the fine valve lapping trick mentioned earlier in this post to finish up. It will make a much better & safer steering car, and no one will be any the wiser, being as none of it is externally visible.
Speaking of Franken-T's, I bought this little pickup inexpensively from the widow of an old friend, somewhat disassembled and missing a lot of stuff. It was overlooked at the estate sale, being up on blocks and missing its wheels, among a bunch of other stuff. It was originally a Fordor sedan that was very nicely made into a closed cab PU certainly sometime before I was born, probably because Ford never sold a closed cab PU in the model T era. It once belonged to Dennis Day of the Jack Benny show. Chassis is 1921, body 1926, that's the original Fawn Gray color matched from inside a door. I am working on a stock looking steel PU box for it now, which will further confuse the experts, but its the only PU I own, so it makes regular runs to the dump, among other errands. It has the later steering gears too. Good luck with your project, Danny. Jeff Beaumont, Gardnerville, NV
Funny truck2.jpg


Allan
Posts: 950
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Steering column

Post by Allan » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:13 pm

Danny, your brass steering box and quadrant look to be really nice. The riveted case looks to be tight, the quadrant is tidy and the riveting in the steel tube looks tight.
With all this looking so good, I would not disturb any of it. Rather, I would cut your later metal tube and weld it to the reminder of the tube still in the brass parts. There is enough variation in the cross section of the tubes that a good fit of the brass bits in a later tube may well be quite difficult to achieve. Welding two steel tubes offers a much easier solution, and one which will be easier to manipulte to achieve a good looking result.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:44 pm

I think I will use the later gearbox I have and just restore it. Not because the rarity of the brass one I have. Because I have it cleaned up and stripped it down. New rods for it. Quadrant is pretty rough. Might source one and then I will be good. Didn’t mean to start this mess.

User avatar

George House
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
First Name: George
Last Name: House
Location: northern Caldwell county TX
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Steering column

Post by George House » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:35 am

Well, good for you Danny. And build that speedster. Please consider returning the brass quadrant and steering gear box to the restorer’s pipeline. In your initial post I read that you disassembled a later steering column for the sheet metal column ‘tube’. I suppose there might be a good reason to hacksaw the very early column. I just can’t think of one. To those I offended by wrongly assuming it was cut to be grafted; I profusely apologize.
I’d Rather Suffer Much In Good Company Than To Live Comfortably With Delicate Men..


tdump
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm
First Name: Mack
Last Name: Cole
Location: North Carolina

Re: Steering column

Post by tdump » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:04 am

From the looks of that brass quadrent,it appears a scrapper got ahold of a car and removed that brass with his sawsall and someone caught it at the yard before it got gone to the smelter. I make rounds to a couple yards like that and found the shaw tractor conversion rearend I have and a couple other peices that woulda been lost.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:22 pm

The cut column was just a purchase, I didn’t cut
Im just gathering parts and thinking out loud
Here are a couple I took pics of this morning.
85CD2854-91EF-402B-ACBD-6A1CBCAB1543.jpeg
EB77C180-18D2-4C49-BDEC-3AFFF21760C2.jpeg
B8EF1D36-40F4-4752-9EB5-989FD75010E2.jpeg


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1282
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Steering column

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:49 pm

No worries Danny D ! Those of us paying attention here already know that you didn't cut that early column. The fact is, probably hundreds of such columns were cut that way over the many decades before these parts became a bit more expensive and rare. Most by people that wanted to save the most valuable bit (whether for scrap brass or the smaller end worth five bucks without having to handle the longer bulk that only added a few more dollars back then). I have probably seen nearly a dozen such cut early gear-cases with a couple inches of steel tube.

As for the "nit-pick-bickering"? Try to not let it bother you. There are several regulars on this site that seem unable to keep out of that stuff. Personally, I try to stay out of it (most of the time), however, I do sometimes mange to start it without intending to.

By the way, although I do not know him personally, George H is also a fine fellow that helps others online often.

We look forward to hopefully many updates on your progress, pictures of the car as it goes together, etc. We are funny that way. And then, hopefully in a year to two, having you along on tours with local or major clubs! Tours and the comradery is some of the best fun of a model T!


Topic author
dmdeaton
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm
First Name: Danny
Last Name: Deaton
Location: Ohio

Re: Steering column

Post by dmdeaton » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:51 pm

All is good. I will share the build as I go along.
Thanks all

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic