Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

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paddy1998
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Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by paddy1998 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:28 am

Happy New Year all,

This year the plan is to convert the electrical on my @1923 Touring (it has a '26 engine but is decidedly NOT the improved model) to 12 volt with a Delco gear driven alternator and add turn signals and proper tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals.

Ideally I'd like to incorporate all three into a single fixture on each rear fender and avoid having too many separate fixtures decorating the rear end. The original rear running light with license plate holder is there on the left rear fender and I'd like to just get another one for the right rear fender.

Is this realistic? If not, will the Model A rear fixtures fit in the Model T brackets?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:48 am

Original tail lights use a single-contact bulb. You can add another one on the right, but I think you'll need to change the sockets in both of them to accommodate the double-filament bulbs.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:11 am

You will at least need double filament sockets and bulbs. Also with that type of lighting you'll need a proper type turn signal switch which will, for instance, keep a brake light on one side lit when the turn signal is on the other side at a stop light. Get a Fun Projects stop light kit too. Well worth the price for the mounting bracket alone.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Moxie26 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:27 am

Paddy.... There is nothing inherently wrong with a 6 volt electrical system on a model T Ford. We are accustomed to a fast spinning engine and 12 volts and the model T hobbyist may think that's the best for their model T. By using LED headlights and LED bulbs for your turn signals and stop lights will greatly reduce the current draw compared to standard 6V filament bulbs. Whether you choose a 6 volt model T generator or opt for a 6 volt alternator, using these bulbs will not put an added strain on the system, and it will give you brighter lights

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by paddy1998 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:01 pm

Moxie26 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:27 am
Paddy.... There is nothing inherently wrong with a 6 volt electrical system on a model T Ford. We are accustomed to a fast spinning engine and 12 volts and the model T hobbyist may think that's the best for their model T. By using LED headlights and LED bulbs for your turn signals and stop lights will greatly reduce the current draw compared to standard 6V filament bulbs. Whether you choose a 6 volt model T generator or opt for a 6 volt alternator, using these bulbs will not put an added strain on the system, and it will give you brighter lights
You're right, there is nothing inherently wrong with a 6v system. The reason for the switch to 12v alternator is a combination of my generator and/or the cutout giving me problems and the ready availability of 12v bulbs and cheap batteries. I am not competent to rebuild the generator so at this point it's cheaper for me to switch over to a 12v gear driven alternator. My left arm is tired from forgetting to put the charger on the battery.

I also have some tentative plans to put in some switched ground effects and exterior lighting as well as a hidden port to charge my cell phone. And maybe a hidden bluetooth amplifier with sound exciters to turn the T's body into a speaker :idea: I'd like to keep my options open.

I know a lot of people object to this kind of thing, but I'm not just going to throw the generator away. I will probably use this as an opportunity to learn how to rebuild it, but in the meantime I'm going to use the 12v system. There's nothing about this that is irreversible.

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:11 pm

An 1157 bulb is a dual filament bulb used for stop/turn/tail functions.
Here is a DIY instructions on how to do it http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/turn-signals.html
The black box simplifies wiring
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Humblej » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:22 pm

My advice is to get your 6 volt system functional and enjoy the as built Ford.

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by aDave » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:44 pm

Scott,
Your marbles (your game - your car), so definitely you can do as you please...and I will not fault you for that.

Only disagreement that I have with your posts is this: "....it's cheaper for me to switch over to a 12v gear driven alternator...".

I am not at all sure that will be true after all is said and done. An excellent rebuilt generator can be had for but a little more than the alternator...and from some reports, depending upon the alternator, and its location on the engine (close to it, it the "hot" zone), you may experience alternator failure.
Not sure how many batteries you wish to buy, but a well maintained (electrolyte AND charged) battery should last you 10-12 maybe 15 years....keep it charged!

Good Luck whichever route you drive on...check all your costs before you depart, though.

Dave


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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by GG Gregory » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:05 pm

aDave
Where in holy name of Henry Ford do you find a battery that last 10 to maybe 15 years ? There's no such critter in my neck of the woods !

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Novice » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:54 pm

If You rewind the starter for 12 volts or replace the starter with a 12 volt one. that will be more expensive. If the 6 volt Generator is good add a fun projects voltage regulator to replace the cutout. They also sell 6 to 12 volt converters that are cheap and will power Your 12 volt devices. I have two Ts one is 12 volt the other 6 volt. with a good 6 volt battery and proper size 6 volt battery cables the Truck starts just fine in cold weather. The starter on the touring is 6 volt and on 12 volts it winds up like a jet engine. They make a number of good 6 volt replacement bulbs now that are much brighter than the stock and after market incandescent bulbs. draw very little current with My headlights on Bright You can just barley see the amp meter needle move. Ford did not change to 12 volt electrical systems until 1956 ? a year after Chevy did in 1955 ? If My memory is correct.
Your car Your choice.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Susanne » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:10 pm

GG Gregory wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:05 pm
aDave
Where in holy name of Henry Ford do you find a battery that last 10 to maybe 15 years ? There's no such critter in my neck of the woods !
I hear you. I had an alleged "84 month AGM" mattery in one of the modern cars that was dead in 18. I had another that was a 72 month battery that lasted less than a year - the plates had buckled and blew out the case. Pure trash.

The biggest "problem" with 6 volts is you need twice the current flow (amps) to get the same output as a 12 volt system - on my early 50's Ford, once I satarted changing wires to a larger size (and cleaning corrosion) the lights worked better, the starter spun the engine easier, and all in all I decided I didn't need to do a 12V conversion.

Back to the OT... I've seen people rig a second oil tail lamp and then rework the internals to replace the burner with a pair of 1157 sockets, using 1154 bulbs (6 volts) and using the hole for the wick adjusting knob for the wire access... no permanent changes were needed for the lamps, and you have lights that (using a black box) can give you both stop and turn signals...

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by George Mills » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:17 pm

eh, Paddy...

Like said above...your marbles, your game...

I'll share that you can achieve what you want in either 6V or 12V by going to Model A Teacup taillights. They are especially nice if you option up the stainless bezels...the basics come painted black. From 4 ft away you can't tell they are teacup style where the real-deal T were tuna-cans.

I got carried away with them and went with the forged brackets that go back to the body frame for mounting and not fender mounted...and also went with the stamped steel and powder coated 'fascia' that hides the thimble connector.

FWIW...I'm happy with the way things worked out and I have turn/brake/4-way all in one fixture on each side.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by tdump » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:30 pm

I wanted to add turn signals to my 47 Pontiac without adding a light fixture.The front was easy,replace the park light socket with a dual filiament. The back , well, after alot of head scratching asking questions and so on,I was lead to a little black box used to convert American trailer wires to Foriegn,as in Toyoda and so forth that have a seperate yellow fixture for turn.Which shoulda been the way the US did it but anyhow,It works great.
I did it very odd on my T pickup. The little brass tube on the steering column is not big enough for a bunch of wires. So somehow,I can't remember how,but I use the ground for the turn signals on the switch instead of the hot. I would have to study it to figure out how i did it as I don't remember and back when I did it I was on medicine that made me loopy sometimes.
But the brake light is a seperate "STOP" light so that solved the combo problem.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Mountainrider » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:32 pm

My solution

viewtopic.php?t=6819

Outer lights could be wired for turn signals


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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Tmooreheadf » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:40 pm

Contact Casey Miller at Ron's Machine Shop in Shandon, Ohio. She makes the hidden turn signal in 6 or 12 volt. She is a sharp gal, makes the units herself and can assist you in having a system that works. I would strongly suggest going to LEDs. Very bright and not much current draw as stated by others. I switched several years ago and have helped several folks going to LEDs. They ask where to get those really bright brake lights and turn signals when following us on tour. Super Bright LED web site has a whole bunch of options. You won't be sorry.
Tom

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by aDave » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:03 pm

Gregory & Susanne...
years ago...just kept it charged...did not let it sit unused/unattended for months on end.
Agreed, some modern ones aren't that good. I forget the brand...local gas station sold them. Problem I used to have was leave them unattended in the car during the winter...not good..I use a "trickle charger" - maybe someday it will become overcharged and blow is top - so far, no.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Mark Osterman » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:42 pm

There are vintage tail lights with two bulbs that are very nifty for multiple uses.


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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Original Smith » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:02 am

I have no proof on this, but I've seen a few of these. The late taillights used from 1924-1927 sometimes have a straight through socket similar to a headlight socket, which enables the owner to use a spring loaded plug of either one contact or two contacts. I have one of these in my 1925, and use it with one of Snyders 6 volt cowl light bulbs that are made for turn signals. I have to file off one pin to get it to fit. I use a stock 1926-7 stop light switch and it looks 100% authentic, except there are two wires going to it. I think Ford may have offered this part in the 1930's as a replacement part.

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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:44 pm

There are several methods to convert to a dbl contact tail lights -
Tail Light Socket.png
Or be creative and DIY
dorman socket.png
take the guts out of one like this and put it in the T tail light can
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by FordorGalore » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:18 am

I made up this LED brake, turn and hazard light combo. I wired it with a trailer plug and made it removable. The 6 volt system works good with LED's and they are plenty bright in the daylight to make driving safer. I wanted it removable for going to shows where originality is expected.
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by Randall strickland » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:17 am

Made some brackets for model A
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Re: Tail lights, brake lights, and turn signals

Post by fliverfan » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:05 pm

paddy1998 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:28 am
Happy New Year all...
... Is this realistic? If not, will the Model A rear fixtures fit in the Model T brackets?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
The early Model A tail/stop light (drum/tuna can type) was the optional tail/stop light for the Model T. They fit later T brackets 25-27. But there was still only one on the left side. Adding the right side will likely require buying two complete units, a right side bracket and blacking out the right license plate lens (or replace the right side light with a repro body with no license plate lens).
To convert the pre-25 or later non-brake light style T electric tail light would require blacking out both license plate lenses and adding a separate license plate light (unless you don't mind the license plate light blinking with the left turn signal).
I don't believe a 6v or 12v alternator will make a huge difference (with a stock ignition) because I don't think either of them charge the battery below 700 engine rpms. Guess it all depends on how much non-stop driving you do.

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