Ethanol gas

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Wayne Mims
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:49 am
First Name: Ervin
Last Name: Mims
Location: Las Vegas
MTFCA Number: 29375

Ethanol gas

Post by Wayne Mims » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:48 am

Someone told me that the ethanol gas will destroy the mag overtime they said the ethanol leak through gets into the oil and deteriorate the mad ring I would appreciate it if anybody has any information this. I go through 10 to 20 gallons of gas a week in my Model Tees and the mag in my 15 has quit working. My Tee are my daily drivers in Las Vegas unless I go out of town.

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1912
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:02 am

I've never encountered this very creative theory before. I suspect somebody was pulling your leg, amusingly misinformed, or 'round the bend. I would look elsewhere for the reason for your mag problem.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:16 am

Likely someone who heard it on the Internet. Ethanol is an additive, alcohol, added to gas. Think about it for a second - Given the way the Model T fuel system is designed how would "the ethanol" get inside the engine compartment and mix with the oil? When drive you are burning it. You should be more concerned about the oil you are using than the fuel.


jab35
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Bartsch
Location: Dryden, NY 13053
MTFCA Number: 30615

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by jab35 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:39 am

This may be old news, Ethanol dissolves shellac and shellac was used to 'seal' the original mag coil wrapping and 'glue' it to the core. Gasoline can get into the crankcase (particularly at start-up/running rich in cold weather, flooded engine etc) and ethanol in that gasoline blend can attack the mag ring. Has this ever been observed as a direct cause of mag ring failure? I don't know, but all of the mag ring rebuilders now use Glyptal to seal and secure coils on the core, Glyptal is resistant to alcohol, oil at high temp and gasoline, so rebuilt coils should be safe from chemical attack (at least until such time Xylene is used as a fuel or oil additive). jb

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Contact:

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:20 pm

James

True that shellac is dissolved by alcohols like ethanol. However, Ford used an insulating varnish on the mag rings.

The specs note that the physical properties remain intact from the environment inside the running engine. So many mag rings are still going with original varnish.

Ethanol isn't alkalic or basic, so very little, if any, injury to tiny exposure from it in the combustion of fuel that has ethanol would occur. Combustion residues like carbon, and other chemicals will seep into the engine oil from piston ring and valve blow-by.

As posted, always best to change oil often, to remove moisture or other damaging contaminate that aren't good to the parts inside the Ford engine.



IMG_1139.jpg
IMG_1140.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Richard G » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:51 pm

I DO KNOW THIS ABOUT ETHANOL, THE CORK FLOAT IN MY T LASTED ABOUT 5 MONTHS, THE CAR HAD BEEN SETTING MANY YEARS WHEN I FOUND IT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I DID WAS CLEAN THE [IT WAS NOT THAT DIRTY] CARB, THE FIRST FEW WEEKS I NEVER SHUT THE GAS OFF AS IT NEVER DRIP'D IT STARTED SPOTTING, THEN LEAKING, THE FLOAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS KNEW, I ASKED ON THE FORUM WHATS GOING ON, I WAS TOLD I THINK BY DALLAS THAT THIS GAS WOULD EAT THE SHELLAC AND WRECK THE FLOAT. CURE LANG'S SENT ME A KIT TO BUILD A NEW ONE THAT THE ETHANOL WONT BOTHER .

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Kaiser » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:25 am

Hi there Wayne, model Ts were built to run on gasoline and ALCOHOL, so in an original T there is nothing that is affected by the ethanol (alcohol) in modern fuels, so don't worry too much.
Another thing is modern replacement parts, rubber fuel lines, cork floats etc. they might be finished with other materials than Henry ordered, the sinking floats and deteriorating fuel hoses are responsible for many burned out classic cars these days, best is to check your fuel lines regularly IF they are rubber, the float is easily checked, its good for ever or its not, you'll know when you open the float bowl.
Your coil ring, i wouldn't worry about that one, the amount of raw fuel in your oil is never enough to affect that even if it is aftermarket with incorrect finish.
I think the whole story is another myth brought by some "expert"

Happy T- ing in the new year !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver


Dallas Landers
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:26 pm
First Name: Dallas
Last Name: Landers
Location: N.E. Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49995

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Dallas Landers » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:29 am

This is a touchy subject such as MMO or the best oil. The only thing I have said on the forum about ethenol gas is I run it out in the fall and use non- ethenol for winter months when it may set for several months. Also I wont use ethenol blend in my small engines after replacing most of the carburators due to corrosion and white goop from setting over the winter. Never had that problem till ethenol blend came along. Other than possible moisture in the tank, it probably wont hurt these tuogh little T's we enjoy but I try to prevent possible problems. Im glad you are getting it fixed Richard, happy T'ing.

User avatar

Susanne
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
First Name: Susanne
Last Name: Rohner
Location: Northeastern California
MTFCA Number: 49765
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Susanne » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:06 am

You really do get a lot of oil dilution when you have downdraft carbs that leak into the crankcase via the rings... like on a motorcycle, or on a downdraft car. On a T - when the carbs leak, generally it's out the air intake on the carb. Sometimes out the float bowl top. I've yet to see one leak out of the top of the intake manifold...

And even were this the case, to have enough alcohol in e-10 gasoline to do damage you already have 10x the quantity of gasoline in your oil...

I really don't think Alcohol is the problem. I'm no fan of what Alcohol in what they're selling as Gasoline does... but if you're diluting so much in oil in a T you have problems with your coils in your mag, I doubt the issue is with the alcohol in the gas.

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1912
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:29 am

...due to corrosion and white goop from setting over the winter.

I did have that problem. A few years ago I had to clean out all the white stuff deposited in my splitter's aluminum carburetor to get it running. I haven't had the problem since, most likely because I use the machine often enough to keep the same batch of gas from sitting in it. I've never had the same misadventure on a tractor, truck, or Model T (all with cast iron carbs).
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Richard G » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:11 pm

SAY WHAT YOU WANT, I DO KNOW THIS ABOUT THAT! LIKE I SAID IN MY FIRST POST, MY T SAT YEARS,WHEN I TOOK THE CARB APART FOR A LOOK SEE THE CORK FLOAT WAS FINE THE SHELLAC ON IT WAS HARD AND SHINY, WHEN I TOOK I APART THE NEXT TIME THE FLOAT WAS A GOO'Y MESS THE SHELLAC WAS SOFT AND STICKY, AND WOULD NOT FLOAT IN GAS,THE NEW PLASTIC FLOAT IS WORKING FINE,IT TOOK A TIME OR TWO TO GET IT RIGHT SHAPING IT WITH A FILE, I FOUND A GAS STATION IN LEBANON N H THAT SELL'S REAL GAS LIKE IT USED TO BE, NO CORN OR OTHER CRUD IN IT, THAT'S WHAT'S IN ALL MY [EXCEPT MY TRUCK] ENGINES, COST A FEW BUCKS MORE, THEY RUN WHEN CALLED ON. THAT'S MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION ON THE MATTER.


Rich Bingham
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:35 pm

Ethanol in gasoline isn’t the only amendment to the recipe in the past 40 years or more. Nowadays there’s quite a soup of solvents, volatiles and chemistry in gasolines that vary with the locale and can be very different across the country, depending where you live. All are very different from the stuff Model Ts fed on during their first 50 years. Many tank sealants that were excellent and recommended to the restorer 40 years ago or so have succumbed to the new fuels and become a problem. And I agree with Richard G, new fuels (with or without ethanol) definitely will dissolve vintage shellac.
"Get a horse !"


Mark Osterman
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Osterman
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:41 pm

Have never seen the mag coil on any of the Ts I’ve owned affected by anything really. And I think that most of the various carburetors I’ve tried had brass floats.

Now several years ago I left conventional alcohol additive gasoline in my previous T over the winter and I didn’t start it for a few months. When I went to start it in the spring I had a heck of a time. Checked the timer, plugs and coils and still couldn’t get it running. Then I drained the carb a little and there was a lot of crap in there. Cleaned it out and also drained the gas tank sediment bulb and the gas was bright orange.

So I set up a temporary lawn mower gas tank to the carb with fresh gas .. and it started right up. I drained the tank completely and put in fresh gas and everything was fine. Since then I fill the tank with alcohol free gas as often as possible and particularly before winter sets in. But I also start the T once a week and let it get good and hot to keep it limbered up throughout the winter. Once winter breaks it’s driven regularly, about 100 miles a week, so no problems.


Norman Kling
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:17 pm

I don't think you will get any gasoline in the crankcase unless you are misfiring on one cylinder and drive that way for a long time. Some might get through the rings or valve guides, but even when misfiring I would think that most of the unburnt gas would go out through the exhaust system. Most old mag rings do need to be rewound and re insulated because the tape used in winding the original mag coils tends to rot and deteriorate over time. Modern fiberglass tape with boat varnish seems to last much better.
Norm


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:18 pm

I dislike these discussions. Often run past them and try to ignore them. Too many opinions, all too often bad ones, although in this thread so far there are mostly good opinions and several good and true facts given (thank you guys!).
No doubt about it (in my opinion) that the garbage they sell as "gasoline" today is an example of politicians run amok! Every statistic I have ever read trying to show what a wonderful thing it has been for the environment has subtle clues to how "figures do not lie, but liars sure can figure!" (one of my life-long favorite quotes).
Also no doubt (this time a well proven fact!) that the modern additive burdened "gasoline" can and very often DOES result in serious damage to a lot of cars, causing expensive repairs, massive losses due to fires caused, homes lost or people killed (never do see statistics on those!).

To the point of this thread. There is no doubt that our "gasoline" can, has, and will damage or ruin the early style shellac coated cork floats in original or older restored antique automobiles. That is a simple fact of long-term immersing of the float in unburned "gasoline" laced with alcohol.
It is also a fact that SOME unburned gasoline WILL get into the oil in the crankcase. This will happen with the running of engines when it is choked to get it started. It can happen on engines that are running badly due to unburned gasoline working past the rings or valve stems even with the engine running. However, either way, the amount of unburned "gasoline" getting into the oil is so small that even if it stayed there it would not likely ever be enough to really harm (even slightly) something like the coil ring. Beyond that, alcohol, just like real gasoline, will evaporate. It evaporates very fast if the engine is run enough to get more than warm.
So, with driving your car often, it should not have a magneto problem due to the "gasoline". So I too think you need to check for the other usual causes.


fschrope
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:54 pm
First Name: Fred
Last Name: Schrope
Location: Upland, IN

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by fschrope » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:08 pm

wayne sheldon wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:18 pm
I dislike these discussions. Often run past them and try to ignore them. Too many opinions, all too often bad ones, although in this thread so far there are mostly good opinions and several good and true facts given (thank you guys!).
No doubt about it (in my opinion) that the garbage they sell as "gasoline" today is an example of politicians run amok! Every statistic I have ever read trying to show what a wonderful thing it has been for the environment has subtle clues to how "figures do not lie, but liars sure can figure!" (one of my life-long favorite quotes).
Also no doubt (this time a well proven fact!) that the modern additive burdened "gasoline" can and very often DOES result in serious damage to a lot of cars, causing expensive repairs, massive losses due to fires caused, homes lost or people killed (never do see statistics on those!).

To the point of this thread. There is no doubt that our "gasoline" can, has, and will damage or ruin the early style shellac coated cork floats in original or older restored antique automobiles. That is a simple fact of long-term immersing of the float in unburned "gasoline" laced with alcohol.
It is also a fact that SOME unburned gasoline WILL get into the oil in the crankcase. This will happen with the running of engines when it is choked to get it started. It can happen on engines that are running badly due to unburned gasoline working past the rings or valve stems even with the engine running. However, either way, the amount of unburned "gasoline" getting into the oil is so small that even if it stayed there it would not likely ever be enough to really harm (even slightly) something like the coil ring. Beyond that, alcohol, just like real gasoline, will evaporate. It evaporates very fast if the engine is run enough to get more than warm.
So, with driving your car often, it should not have a magneto problem due to the "gasoline". So I too think you need to check for the other usual causes.
Well said Wayne. The more I read your posts, the more I respect your knowledge. It's hard to believe you live in California. You sure don't fit there.

One more thing - Biodiesel will do much the same thing if left to sit to long.

User avatar

Matt in California
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:42 pm
First Name: Matt
Last Name: G
Location: California
MTFCA Number: 30697

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Matt in California » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:05 am

I have commented in length in the past about ethanol taking the stance of in favor. Others against. At the end of the day or month as it was I think we agreed on the following:
  • The gas tank is more at a risk of rusting
  • The float is an issue, because the shellac was alcohol based. But by now in the USA everyone has had to deal with 10% ethanol
  • The "shelf life" of ethanol is shorter, so cars should avoid being stored with ethanol gasoline.
To the point of the topic here.
Yesterday I meet someone that has had a lot of experience racing with nitro and alcohol. I asked him the considerations that race cars go through. He explained on a nitro system he change the oil, take off the manifold and heads every 1/4 mile race! The oil has to be changed because of contamination. So he understands the issues of contamination in the oil.

For alcohol he shared the engine runs cooler, so the ring clearances are tighter. He mentioned that the race cars that he worked with would drain all alcohol out of the system (tank to carburetor) after the race because of corrosion. I asked him about concerns for the engine beyond the carburetor. Since it runs cooler he said you would see less damage except if it was run too lean. He said then you could burn up an engine because it runs very hot. As far as contamination in the oil, he said that was not an issue (like nitro that had to be change each run). But did say there could be some more contamination due to the fact that the engine would run cooler and the ring clearances would be wider than desired.

As a person who has taken the positive side of the conversation of ethanol with Model Ts, I find the question in the original post intriguing. But now I think now the biggest risk of using ethanol to a Model T would be to run an engine too lean. Perhaps you could have similar issues with gasoline and maybe not an issue like it is in a race car, but something to be careful with.

Matt

User avatar

ewdysar
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:48 pm
First Name: Eric
Last Name: Dysart
Location: SoCal

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by ewdysar » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:21 am

fschrope wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:08 pm
wayne sheldon wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:18 pm
I dislike these discussions. Often run past them and try to ignore them. Too many opinions, all too often bad ones...”
...It's hard to believe you live in California. You sure don't fit there...
Yep, me too, Wayne. I usually try to ignore the unnecessary opinions, but some folks just have to be petty and throw in snide comments that don’t have anything to do with the conversation at hand. It really colors my opinion about the kind of people that they are.

Keep crankin’
Eric


DHort
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:30 pm
First Name: DAVID
Last Name: HJORTNAES
Location: Men Falls, WI
MTFCA Number: 28762
MTFCI Number: 22402

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by DHort » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:34 am

Matt,

You have a good discussion about gas above and I would like to ask you a question.

In the past we added a bottle (16oz) of HEAT to a tank of gas to absorb the water that might get in the gasoline in the winter.

Now the gas is 10% alcohol, so it should absorb water in the tank. Do you know how much water can be added to a 10 gal tank of gas before it reaches the saturation point and the water starts to separate from the gas?

Thank you.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:33 am

Fred S and Eric D, A funny silly little side note. By the time I was eight years old, I understood I didn't really belong in this state. I did grow up in San Jose, Califunny, and have lived here almost my entire life! But by the third grade, I was proudly proclaiming that I was NOT a native Californian! I was born in Nevada.

Thank you.

User avatar

david_dewey
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:42 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Dewey
Location: Oroville, CA
MTFCI Number: 19936
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by david_dewey » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:09 am

Actually, Wayne (at least now) lives in the north part of the state, on the southern edge of an area some of us refer to as "The Great State of Jefferson" and there's quite a few of us who are similar to him here (note I did NOT say "like him" but "similar" no one is quite like Wayne (this is meant as a compliment, BTW). If it weren't for Dec 7, 1941, we likely would have been a separate state made from parts of N. California and Southern Oregon.
David--native Jeffersonian.
T'ake care,
David Dewey

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:30 am

DHORT - here is the answer to your question based on an actual study. Saturation is reached at these levels
E10 3.06 tsp per gallon E15 6.47 tsp per gallon If you were to see a cut-away view of that tank, you see the gasoline on top, a milky layer of ethanol+water below that, and a small layer of just water at the very bottom. Now everyone should realize that when saturation is reached any water in your tank is NOT from the Ethanol but what it couldn't absorb. In other words the alcohol is done absorbing water and whatever is in the tank is was going to be there in any event. Then again the Model T fuel system is draining from almost the very bottom of the tank and perhaps we have been burning the bottom layers. If your car is stored for awhile (out of the weather) then any "water" that may be absorbed is from the relative humidity. Let us not forget that service stations are not immune to have contaminated storage tanks - so I wouldn't get gas from a station that is near a flooded area :o So we used HEET to get rid of water in our fuel system before there was E10/E15.
So everyone read this study and understand. I really think it will satisfy .
https://cropwatch.unl.edu/documents/Eth ... 052014.pdf


jab35
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Bartsch
Location: Dryden, NY 13053
MTFCA Number: 30615

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by jab35 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:09 pm

That article is excellent! Here's a summary article showing the phase diagram for various Alcohol, gasoline and water combinations. Saturation by water occurs at a water content roughly equal to 5% of the alcohol content, same as was observed in your reference. Good info, jb
https://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_in ... _tolerance

User avatar

Charlie B in N.J.
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:40 am
First Name: CHARLIE
Last Name: BRANCA
Location: Brick N.J.
MTFCA Number: 28967
Board Member Since: 2010

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:53 pm

In case any one is interested; your "white goop" is the ethanol dissolving the "varnish" left over from dissolved regular (non ethanol) fuel. Regular fuel will not dissolve its own varnish but the ethanol will. The white goop is the result. It's the varnish. Went wild in the boat yard many years ago with this problem.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm

C B Not sure I agree with you 100% - study tested the milky residue for what it was. BUT -- "YES" on Varnish in the Tank from old gas - As gasoline sits within the fuel system of a car, it tends to turn into a thick varnish that coats and clogs various components within your car. Lots of discussions on old gas of all types in the forum ALREADY. Here is another observation from people doing it for a living https://ajautorepair.com/how-old-gasoli ... -your-car/


fschrope
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:54 pm
First Name: Fred
Last Name: Schrope
Location: Upland, IN

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by fschrope » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:47 pm

TRDxB2 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm
C B Not sure I agree with you 100% - study tested the milky residue for what it was. BUT -- "YES" on Varnish in the Tank from old gas - As gasoline sits within the fuel system of a car, it tends to turn into a thick varnish that coats and clogs various components within your car. Lots of discussions on old gas of all types in the forum ALREADY. Here is another observation from people doing it for a living https://ajautorepair.com/how-old-gasoli ... -your-car/
That link is a sales pitch trying to get business..........with a lot of liberties taken. i.e. what is old gas and what are old cars?

The varnish is simply the long/heavy molecules that are left after the light/short/volatile molecules evaporate. It was that way in the 1960's when I went to a petroleum school and still is today.

As for the white powder in the bottom of the aluminum carburetors, I don't know exactly, but it is some sort of chemical reaction between aluminum and alcohol.


fschrope
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:54 pm
First Name: Fred
Last Name: Schrope
Location: Upland, IN

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by fschrope » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:48 pm

TRDxB2 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm
C B Not sure I agree with you 100% - study tested the milky residue for what it was. BUT -- "YES" on Varnish in the Tank from old gas - As gasoline sits within the fuel system of a car, it tends to turn into a thick varnish that coats and clogs various components within your car. Lots of discussions on old gas of all types in the forum ALREADY. Here is another observation from people doing it for a living https://ajautorepair.com/how-old-gasoli ... -your-car/
That link is a sales pitch trying to get business..........with a lot of liberties taken. i.e. what is old gas and what are old cars?

The varnish is simply the long/heavy molecules that are left after the light/short/volatile molecules evaporate. It was that way in the 1960's when I went to a petroleum school and still is today.

As for the white powder in the bottom of the aluminum carburetors, I don't know exactly, but it is some sort of chemical reaction between aluminum and alcohol.


Dallas Landers
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:26 pm
First Name: Dallas
Last Name: Landers
Location: N.E. Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49995

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:31 pm

Bingo Fred. It pits the carb such as my small engines . White goop is whats left after the reaction to whatever is in the fuel. Aluminum carbs is all I have ever had a problem with.


bud delong
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:09 pm
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: DeLong
Location: wheeler,Mi

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by bud delong » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:47 pm

I think a lot of this is political as too what many say! I like it because it uses corn and we can grow all that is needed for any purpose under the sun.Recently i was in shock when my youngest grandson told me of all the birds killed by wind turbines.My comments are only what i [small i] think and i do not have a lofty perch to come down from to reply. :D Bud. :D


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:36 pm

Being energy independent as a nation for the first time in many many years, common sense says that ethanol has had it's day. Though not particularly easy to locate on the web, the EPA issued a report that ethanol is in fact doing the opposite of what the environmentalists claim: https://www.publicnewsservice.org/2018- ... e/a63554-2.
Once you wade past the fawning proponents of ethanol and start to find science-based reports, you quickly see that even the EPA agrees with science on the following points:

Proponents: raises octane
Science: lowers octane
Proponents: more efficient
Science: less efficient - reduces miles per gallon
Proponents: reduces polution from use
Science: raises polution from use
Proponents: we can grow it and is thus "green"
Science: not "green" at all. Polution from fertilizers, increased food prices, loss of prairie land due to massive increase of tilled area (with loss of wildlife habitat), increased Nitrous Oxide emissions (remember the Ozone hole from a decade ago?)

As far back as 2008, even NPR reported on the terrible effect ethanol was having on us: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... d=18784732

The paper's author stated "Right now there's little doubt that ethanol is making global warming worse"

Science doesn't care about our feelings, so the solution apparently is to ignore the science and thus feel better. From my experience, that approach works at least on my wife's kids and their friends.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

User avatar

Rich Eagle
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Eagle
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
MTFCA Number: 1219
Contact:

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:53 pm

Gasoline will thin the oil if not changed regularly. Normally changes should keep the gasoline in small enough proportions to keep from doing much damage.
I stay away from Ethanol for other reasons.
When did I do that?


Rich Bingham
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:20 pm

Facts are so inconsiderate of fondly held misconceptions. “Grow it yourself” proponents always seem to forget that besides the negative environmental aspects listed, it takes fuel to grow it and process it. The net gain is pitiful.
"Get a horse !"


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:41 pm

We, all of us on this thread, are dancing on the edge of the thread being pulled by the admins for good reasons. But I do see this stuff as important to our beloved model T's future care and use.
I hate politics. People that endure a few minutes of my ranting in person may not believe that. But I do hate politics!
Politics has NEVER been about what is right. Politics has always been about who is going to win the next election, whether they say that or not. Making people feel good for doing a bad thing is one of the biggest parts of politics today.


Pete Ratledge
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 pm
First Name: Peter
Last Name: Ratledge
Location: Delaware
MTFCA Number: 6356
MTFCI Number: 3534

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Pete Ratledge » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:12 pm

Hi Wayne,
I have never heard of the Ethanol gas doing what you said.
I have a 1911 Ford Touring that I drive quite a lot. I use the Enzyme treatment and Marvel Mystery oil in the Ethanol Gas. I am also running a 5 ball carburetor. I had the original float in the 5 ball carb made out of brass. I keep the tank full and start it every month in the winter.
That being said: For any 2 cycle engine, ( Chain Saw, Weed Eater, ect ), I go to Lowe's and purchase the blend that they sell. You can keep that in year around with out messing up the carb. They also have a blend for 4 cycle engines. It is expensive, but worth it. You can leave it in year around with no problem to the carburetors.


Pete Ratledge
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 pm
First Name: Peter
Last Name: Ratledge
Location: Delaware
MTFCA Number: 6356
MTFCI Number: 3534

Re: Ethanol gas

Post by Pete Ratledge » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:12 pm

Hi Wayne,
I have never heard of the Ethanol gas doing what you said.
I have a 1911 Ford Touring that I drive quite a lot. I use the Enzyme treatment and Marvel Mystery oil in the Ethanol Gas. I am also running a 5 ball carburetor. I had the original float in the 5 ball carb made out of brass. I keep the tank full and start it every month in the winter.
That being said: For any 2 cycle engine, ( Chain Saw, Weed Eater, ect ), I go to Lowe's and purchase the blend that they sell. You can keep that in year around with out messing up the carb. They also have a blend for 4 cycle engines. It is expensive, but worth it. You can leave it in year around with no problem to the carburetors.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic