Model T Voltage Regulators and Diode cutouts now Available

[AdminJeff]

Ok, I was trying to keep this in stealth mode until I had everything done, but Google has already indexed my web pages and I've already got a dozen orders in the past 12 hours along with as many phone calls, so I'm going to just put this out there and get it over with. MTFCA Forum members get FIRST crack at these products before start shipping them to the vendors.
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https://modeltstarters.com/voltage-regulators-cutouts/

Its been a VERY long road getting , but we're here. Thus is one of the longest threads on this forum:
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... iy#p196149
Thanks go out to everyone who has helped us all get here: Luke, John Hunter, Tony Bowker, Mike Kosser, Steve Tomaso, Steve Lang, Bill Devine, Chris Branciccao, and the list goes on and on.

My ONLY limitation right now is having enough old cutouts I can salvage the tops from while I wait for delivery of the new cutout tops. If anyone has a lead on a bunch of old cutouts I can buy, drop me a note at jeff@modeltstarters.com - I have an ad for these in the classifieds. The can tops I'm having made for these devices have a lead time of 8-10 WEEKS (October), but everything else is ready to go. We've been testing this design for almost 2 years. Its rock solid. Producing these devices takes a ton of time and all the parts are sourced from over a dozen different vendors with thousands of dollars invested thus far. You'd think making a cutout enclosure is simple, but, trust me, it is anything but...
The good news is these first ones made here will have the Ford script on them. It's more labor intensive and I have to buy cutouts so the cost is a bit higher than I'd like, but for folks who want one soon, it's a good option.

This is a BOLT in replacement of your cutout, just like the Fun Projects regulators were. No external boxes, wires, etc. Disconnect your battery, bolt in the regulator on the generator, reconnect the battery, adjust the 3rd brush on your generator (assuming it's in good shape), and you're good to go.

There are two other long-time MTFCA members whom I've entrusted with literally ALL of the sources and methods of how these devices are produced, and a list of ALL of the suppliers for all parts. I refuse to have another fiasco with this part that is so critical to our hobby. If I check out in a pine box any time soon, this product will keep being produced by someone who is willing to pick up the torch, so to speak. If only other folks would take this path. Imagine how much knowledge of this hobby has slipped away when folks pass on and haven't documented or passed ito others what they know, or feel threatened for some reason by imparting their knowledge.

You want to make these? Have at it, and Good Luck!! You better LOVE this hobby as much as I do, AND be retired, with lots of patience and spare time on your hands.

Use Promo code "FORUM" to get FREE shipping when you order these on my website.

Jeff

[aDave]

Thank you for doing this.
Good Luck ....may you be happy with the future!
Dave

[Scott_Conger]

Good for you and Good Luck

[Moxie26]

Saw this posting early this morning, gave a lot of thought. This afternoon I put in my order after my wife left to be with our grandson. Don't tell her that I spent money on a few items from a reputable Model T man..... hope she doesn't get the internet sales notice from the bank,,giggle, , giggle,, again . IMHO Quality is being produced from numerous minds, and is now available to all Model T'ers. Many thanks to Jeff and everyone who worked together.

[Alden]

If I may be so bold, what was your number? I ordered quite early and was back ordered at 48. Not worried, it will come when it comes. Just glad they are available again!

[Moxie26]

Damn you're bold.... ha ha ..... not really sure, I believe it was in the upper 60's

[TrentB]

Is there a discount if you supply a used Ford cutout at the time you place your order?

Thanks,

[Allan]

I would like one, with no cover, for my unrestored Henrietta. I have a crusty, rusty original cover I could fit, so it would not stand out in an original engine bay.

Allan from down under.

[AdminJeff]

If I may be so bold, what was your number? I ordered quite early and was back ordered at 48. Not worried, it will come when it comes. Just glad they are available again!

This numbering scheme on my order website is completely arbitrary! Don't worry about it - I'll get to everyone as I find Cutout Cans.

I spent the entire day today at a shop near my house and the guy makes and sells laser metal cutting machines. I was literally BLOWN away with the capabilities of this technology. Just.Wow. He manufactures these laser cutting machines and sells and services them all over the USA. Here's a video of us cleaning a Cutout Can with a laser product he developed in about 30 seconds. How much rust have we all collectively removed from parts on our cars?? Thousands of tons?

Before:

Greenshot 2023-08-11 19.02.28.png (137.35 KiB) Viewed 2358 times

After
https://youtu.be/ATztctgO1CQ

Unfortunately, his laser cutting machine suffered a catastrophic failure before I got there in one of the servo motor drivers. We took it out and there was a few blown parts. I brought it home and am fixing it now. This cap is 400v and 546uf! not something I carry in my parts bin.

I ordered the parts Fedex next day air and should have it working for him on Tue. I had no idea I'd be in the laser cutting machine repair business, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get this project into production.
We'll try cutting the pieces again Tuesday.

Then ASSEMBLY & ship!!

Jeff

[JohnH]

It's great to see we've reached this stage of development where the regulator design has been finalised and is ready for manufacture. Quite an achievement compared to how things were two years ago.
My involvement with the project came about because of my electrical engineering background, and that I was already very familiar with the Fun Projects regulator design. I had toyed around with designing my own regulator early on, but nothing came of it beyond a quick bench test. After all, a FP regulator had come my way, and was doing a good job in my own car. Then, with the FP regulator obsolete, and Luke's enthusiasm for an open source design replacement, it all went from there.
Despite the apparent simplicity of the Model T electrical system, it is actually quite a hostile environment to design anything for. Added to that are a number of variables in individual electrical systems - for example, different charge rates, and the condition of wiring between the generator and battery. Testing different designs was a very interesting and educational excercise. Not surprisingly, it became apparent early on, particularly with one of the designs, how different in car operation was to bench testing. To that end, I went so far as to drive around with an oscilloscope running off an inverter. It monitored the generator, to observe what was going on over the normal rev ranges with engine loading. And of course to see if there were ignition induced problems. Other times I had a laboratory grade voltmeter as my passenger, checking the switching points in real world conditions. At one time it became very frustrating with multiple trips between workshop bench and car, trying to figure out where a mysterious oscillation was coming from. It worked perfectly on the bench but not in the car! My Model T resembled something of an electronics laboratory with wires, meters, and the oscilloscope connected all over the generator, battery, and regulator board - and yes, I did find the cause. But this is what real world testing is about - along with numerous trips out on the road. Since I don't have a magneto, I also took the prototypes to test on a friend's car which does have a magneto.
Conveniently, a lot of this testing was done in summer, so temperature measurements were taken to see that everything was running within ratings.
While I did come up with a PCB design, and did in fact build one into a cutout housing - which is still operating 18 months later, this wasn't practical for putting into production.
As Tony found when he was developing a PCB design, there were at least seven types of cutout can out there. Some are less suited for building an electronic regulator into than others. (Mine was a less suitable type, which is one reason it wasn't suitable for mass production). It's obviously impractical to design a different PCB for each type of can.
And that's where the project stalled. The information was nevertheless there for anyone who wanted to build their own, whether it be in their own cutout can, or one of the commercially made project boxes. All of this assumes a familiarity with electronic construction, and the ability to design one's own PCB, etc. The reality is that this suits only a few percent of Model T owners.I did receive a few requests to build regulators, but regrettably it would be extremely time consuming, as well as uneconimical, to make them one off, and to suit unknown enclosures.
All along, it was obvious that the demand is for a self contained regulator, in a Ford cutout housing, that is a full drop in replacement, and requires no wiring modifications. Essentially, taking over as a replacement for the obsolete Fun Projects regulator.
Thankfully, with a lot of behind the scenes work from Jeff, the enclosure difficulty has been overcome, and the regulators can finally become available.

[Flivver]

Despite the apparent simplicity of the Model T electrical system, it is actually quite a hostile environment to design anything for.

So true! My brother and I have spent some time prototyping electronic gadgets for the Model T, and have found it very difficult to get reliable, consistent performance in the Model T generator/magneto/6v operational environment.

Huge congratulations to everyone who contributed to the design and development, and to the team that has brought this product into production! It's an impressive achievement, and a great benefit to those of us who hope to keep these old cars going for generations to come.

[AdminJeff]

John did MOST of the heavy lifting very early on with this project, esp as it related to reverse engineering the FP regulator & then designing the new circuit that's basis of the circuit I used in the production version I'm building.

To that end, I went so far as to drive around with an oscilloscope running off an inverter. It monitored the generator, to observe what was going on over the normal rev ranges with engine loading. And of course to see if there were ignition induced problems. Other times I had a laboratory grade voltmeter as my passenger, checking the switching points in real world conditions. At one time it became very frustrating with multiple trips between workshop bench and car, trying to figure out where a mysterious oscillation was coming from.

Thankfully, with a lot of behind the scenes work from Jeff, the enclosure difficulty has been overcome, and the regulators can finally become available.

So I'm not the only one!!!!! I had some pretty strange looks from folks who kept their distance from my monstrosity and all the electronic measurement equipment hanging from various parts of my car! I wish I had taken pictures! It was really the ONLY way to figure out how to overcome all the problems that were thrown at us, and there were a TON.

Jeff

[Moxie26]

My opinion looks at this as a safety item and a great improvement for the Model T electrical system. I've only seen one instance of a cutout with stuck points after shutdown starting a fire and that's one too many.

[AdminJeff]

My opinion looks at this as a safety item and a great improvement for the Model T electrical system. I've only seen one instance of a cutout with stuck points after shutdown starting a fire and that's one too many.

Here's my close call... the can covering the regulator shorted out the battery terminal because I hadn't secured it well. This actually caused me to modify the design of the cutout base so it's less likely to happen. I narrowed the battery connector:
. From this

.
To this
.

I hope everyone appreciates just how much time has gone into perfecting every aspect of this design!

if I hadn't disconnected the battery in time there absolutely would have been a fire under my dash. Only hyper quick thinking and finding a 1/2" wrench in time to disconnect the battery saved my car.
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This is also what happens when the cutout fails or if you mess up and the wire that goes to your gen touches the chassis by mistake. I've since installed an in-line 20A fuse right at the battery so this never happens ever again.
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I'm actually thinking of including one of these with every regulator and cutout I sell. It solves MULTIPLE problems:
1) it forces you to disconnect the battery before installing the regulator
2) it's tiny and completely hidden from sight.
3) it will prevent a fire if you ever get a short somewhere in your wiring
4) it's easy to replace these fuses. Steal one from your modern car if it blows and you're back on the road.
5) my return rate will drop bc the ONLY way to fry these regulators is to touch the generator contact to ground. I've purposely fried several testing how to make them fail. Pulling the fuse make it easy to disconnect battery power, so you're more likely to do it....
6) it makes it easy to disconnect your battery for the winter.
7) Everyone will be happier in the end


The 14 gauge version is the one to get.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BLZ ... UTF8&psc=1

This is the cheapest insurance policy you can buy for your electrical system...

[speedytinc]

"This is the cheapest insurance policy you can buy for your electrical system.."

Question. If the fuse blows at any time while driving, the generator can wick up to critical can it not?
So, is there a trade off to "sacrifice the generator"?
Must one continuously the ammeter to spot this condition?

[Scott_Conger]

John

this is the solution to your worry. And it's a valid worry (for anyone running a generator)

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/7987.html

[Original Smith]

Here is something I was thinking even when John was making the cutouts. Is it possible for you to mount your new insides into the old framework of an original cutout? There are hundreds of old cutouts that could be used for this purpose, and even re-zinc plated for this purpose?

[Original Smith]

Not only what I mentioned above, but you wouldn't have to pay Ford Motor Company a fee for using their name on the cutout!

[speedytinc]

John

this is the solution to your worry. And it's a valid worry (for anyone running a generator)

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/7987.html

Thats a brilliant fail safe answer. Thants for posting this. WIN, WIN, WIN.

[AdminJeff]

So, is there a trade off to "sacrifice the generator"?
Must one continuously the ammeter to spot this condition?

Nope. That is not how this works.

The answer is actually much more complicated than it appears, but ultimately simple in how it works. IF (and this is a big IF) your generator is PROPERLY adjusted for <=~5A charge rate you can run it ALL DAY LONG disconnected at full RPM without damaging it. I know this because it's one of the design params we all accounted for AND extensively tested both on our test benches and in multiple cars over the past 2 years.

Ron Patterson is also correct- Gens that are set for higher charge rates like 10A or higher will self destruct if there is no load. I've seen it happen. Set them in a normal working range of 5A or less and you're mostly fine. I wouldn't drive it that way for a long time, bur by the time you figure out your battery is dying bc your ancient cutout has failed (again) you shouldn't experience any damage to your generator. Biggest problem here is most folks don't have a properly adjusted generator 3rd brush, let alone even know what a 3rd brush actually is, so its best to not make assumptions in this regard.

All of those issues aside, IF you also have a working voltage regulator installed AND there is a fuse inline like I'm going to provide and that fuse blows, the inherent design we settled on and then made adjustments to over time GROUNDS out the generator if the battery is disconnected, thus protecting it. In fact you can install the regulator and if you don't connect a battery and then you start the motor and drive the car all day long, it grounds the generator out thus protecting it. You'll have a dead battery, but your generator and regulator will be fine.

If everything goes to hell in a hand-basket and your generator dies because a fuse blows or a squirrel takes out your cutout or voltage regulator, it is a LOT cheaper and takes very little time to rebuild your gen than it does to start over with a car that's burned to the ground... just look at the pic of my fried wiring above and you'll understand this better. It took me a week to sort out the wires and replace them all. At least my car didn't catch fire. This was without a fuse.

Before you guys make incorrect assumptions about all this, it is important you understand how we formally trained Electronics Engineering geeks accounted for each of these issues in the design and building of this Voltage Regulator. Anecdotal stories of Model T generator failures frequently make lots of assumptions that are often incorrect. Once you get several hundred generator rebuilds under your belt, and you've designed dozens of voltage regulator circuits over your career, and toiled for literally hundreds of hours over designing a practical working circuit for 100 year old technology, you might be able to call yourself an expert in this area (at least in your own mind like I do).

Jeff

[AdminJeff]

Here is something I was thinking even when John was making the cutouts. Is it possible for you to mount your new insides into the old framework of an original cutout? There are hundreds of old cutouts that could be used for this purpose, and even re-zinc plated for this purpose?

If you read the history of all this on my website you'll understand exactly why this doesn't work.

http://www.modeltregulators.com

"The original Ford (and other vendor) cutout “can” designs were good at what they did, but not accommodating at all for electronic parts. We drilled and tweaked and contorted them for what seemed like eons and we all finally came to the conclusion that the old cutout housings absolutely suck for what we needed. My Fun Projects regulator had failed so I opened it and was surprised to see neatly organized semiconductors mounted securely in place. This was perfect for this project, but how do we get those cutout cans? After exhausting all avenues, I determined the best way forward was to design them from scratch and then build them."

All that said, PLEASE tell me where those 100's of old cutouts are sitting? I need the tops of the can part of the original Ford cutout. Not the aftermarket ones, they won't fit. The Ford ones...
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... ut#p293885

[Moxie26]

Jeff ..... Thanks for clarifying those bogus accusations with proper facts.

[TXGOAT2]

This is a question, not an accusation:

With the new regulator in place, and after the battery has come up to full charge, or close to it, and with no lighting or other accessories in use, will the generator's engine power consumption, exclusive of normal mechanical losses, be very low?

I assume it would be.

[AdminJeff]

yup. when the battery voltage is approx 7.2v, the regulator senses that and shorts the generator to ground, preventing further charging of the battery. When battery voltage is approx 6.4v, the whole process starts again. You can literally watch this on you amp meter in your car. This specific operation is why I settled on this specific design. I prefer to see VISUALLY that my battery is being charged. If it's not, and it's been a while, something is wrong...

John Regans regulator works differently. In fact, I had 3 of them and it was sometimes really tough to know when they were working. In fact, several yrs ago I drove around for several weeks after the regulator failed and couldn't tell. Regan finally and reluctantly replaced it, and it worked for about 2 months before malfunctioning again. This is in NO WAY a slam against John, it's purely facts I'm imparting.

If this regulator is working, it will show you a charge on your amp meter. If its not, you won't see a charge. Could not be more simple.

Jeff

[Original Smith]

I recall the original Ford cutouts have a cover that is spot welded on in two places.

[Ed Fuller]

Always glad to see when someone steps in to continue the support of parts for our hobby.

I found the best insurance for my Model T electrical systems is to remove the generator and cut out completely.

None of my T’s have generators and I haven’t missed them!

[AdminJeff]

I recall the original Ford cutouts have a cover that is spot welded on in two places.

Very observant! I keep vacillating on this point. To spot weld or not to spot weld. John Regan did it because he wanted complete control over his product. He didn't want anyone to know what he had produced and if you violated those spot welds he wouldn't warranty the product. The product we're talking about here is completely open source. Literally anyone can take the design and produce it. Good luck with that and more power to you. I've ONLY considered spot welds as a way to keep the cutout top in place. But I've also designed two reliefs in the base of the cutout where I could slightly bend the tops at the can base and keep it held in place. In fact, as I was reviewing this design feature with the guy who is laser cutting the bases we talked about the geometry needed to produce the correct reliefs.

Time will tell what works best. After I redesigned the battery terminal to be narrower, bending the top can may prove entirely sufficient to keep the top of the can in place and not allow shorts to occur. I'll know more on Tue or We'd when we finally cut the base parts! Rest assured, I'll report back here to share my results. Regardless, I'm getting a small spot welder to experiment with.

Jeff

[AdminJeff]

Always glad to see when someone steps in to continue the support of parts for our hobby.

None of my T’s have generators and I haven’t missed them!

And this is why everyone is entitled to create their own cars as they see fit. Who am I to tell you it s sacrilege to remove a generator. Honestly, my feeling is that those stuck squarely in the past cannot enjoy many of the the fruits of modern technology. Sure seeing a 1909 T in all its original glory is a sight to behold. Only driving it in an occasional parade might appeal to some, but not to me. I would never want to drive it to Costco or Walmart like I do with my 1921. Those of us who really get a kick out of driving these cars a LOT will always look for ways to reduce the incidence of parking them on the side of the street and walking home when they break down. We all have our own ideas of how far that should go.

I have a Winfield carb. It came with the car. It does MUCH better with 1psi of pressure so I have a fuel pump. Some would scoff at that. Let them. I honestly don't care. I also have a Laycock overdrive, I could care less that's it's out of a Volvo! It makes driving my T to Costco and Target much more enjoyable.

I've made a pretty good business out of fixing starters and generators. When someone orders a 12v starter conversion from me, I'm happy to create one for them. I don't judge, it's their choice. In fact I'm shipping one to Japan tomorrow. But if someone asks me if they should convert their car to 12volts, I'll give them a dozen or more reasons why the should NOT do it. So I try and talk them out of ordering my product. This seems odd to some, but if you really love this hobby like I do, then its always a challenge to keep a balance between old and new technologies that keeps this hobby alive, yet preserves as much of it as is practicable, given modern technology gives and takes. Forcing new technologies into these old cars isn't always a good thing.

But, As always, your mileage will vary considerably!

Jeff

[Moxie26]

I was thinking.. suggesting if any Forum members have old burnt out cutouts and still have them in their possession if they would consider sending those in to Jeff so he could salvage the cut out cover.... To help with production until he receives the order he placed for the new cans. I'm sure they would be appreciated.

[AdminJeff]

How is it going?

Well... I'm now completely out of non-script regulators and my supply of Ford Script cutout tops is dwindling.... I've shipped about 75 of them. I'm still looking for the super-sized stash someone, somewhere has of old Ford cutouts. There has to be someone out there who has a bunch of these and just hasn't surfaced yet.

The feedback has been tremendous:

"Hi Jeff,
I carefully installed the unit on my T after DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. I’d already installed a 20 amp fuse from the battery long ago. Can’t understand why anyone with a T or A or any old car doesn’t do that first thing. The unit operates nicely, but at first I had some wild swings of the ammeter. So I shut down, cleaned the brush armature and fired it up. Nice and smooth transitions now. I’ll be sending along my script cut out back to you.

PS. Your installation directions are excellent."

You have to have an electrical system in good condition to start with! Voltage Regulators aren't magic devices!

Jeff