14 Runabout body question

[Art Ebeling]

This is a 1914 Runabout body. It is s Beaudette body dated 10/14. Is this transition from the rear of the body correct? It looks like a patch. Art

[KWTownsend]

That was added on. Looks like it needed it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Yes, that's an add-on. I think the piece of galvanized sheet metal is as well. I believe the rear panel of the body should slope/curve down to the rear deck floor, then stop after becoming horizontal. The rest of the rear deck should be wood. (I have a '21 Runabout. Happy to be corrected if my advice doesn't apply to a '14)

[Art Ebeling]

I figured as much. Can someone share a picture of what it should look like? Thanks for the info. Art

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I may be in error about the sheet metal deck covering. See here, Russ Furstnow's car... viewtopic.php?f=5&t=40709&p=312755&hili ... 14#p312755

[Art Ebeling]

Should the turtledeck have a wood floor?

[George House]

Yes, it is a patch and yes, it should have a wood floor. I have two ‘14 T runabouts. One of which I’ve restored and the other Ed Messenger restored. They both have wood floors. In fact, heres a picture of an original 1914 runabout turtledeck floor:

[Wayne Sheldon]

Should the turtledeck have a wood floor?

I am not positive that the 1914 was the same? However, when I was looking at early turtle decks while trying to get my 1915 close to right, I found several 1915 through 1918 turtle decks with original wood in them that clearly did not have a floor built into the turtle deck. Mine had solid steel, but nothing whatsoever left of the wood or front steel panel (hidden from view when installed), and it was more than a little bent.
A very good friend loaned me a very nice early take-off turtle deck so that I could copy the wood and the missing front inside piece as well as match the shape and curves as I repaired mine. (Thank you Phil!!)
His very nice original with totally original paint and wood had no sign whatsoever that it had ever had a wooden floor attached inside the turtle deck. So that is how I restored mine.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I suspect that whether or not they had a built in wood floor of their own may have been a body supplier difference? It might have also been a year to year specification difference from Ford. However, this question keeps coming up, and I have not yet seen a definitive answer based upon Ford's records or a significant study of surviving cars. So there may not be a clear answer to the question.
While searching for the answers for myself, I did see several original turtle decks that clearly DID have the wooden floor originally, so they clearly (to me?) were done both ways. The remaining question becomes "when did they do what?"
One of the reasons I chose to not have the floor built into my turtle deck is that the turtle deck/trunk is small enough and I figured the added almost an inch of height might be helpful with gasoline cans or boxes of tools or spare parts.

[George House]

Wayne, I’m not an ‘expert’ on ‘15-‘18 turtledecks like you but my great fondness for specifically 1914 runabouts caused me to closely inspect this year model over 2 decades. They all had a wooden floor. Ed Messenger has won 6 AACA Jr and Sr First Places on his restorations and, although the 1914 runabout I now own wasn’t one of the 6, he restored it with a wooden floor. Two Saturdays ago I was at the Kingsbury Aerodrome for a fly in and car show. In a shed there sat a very dilapidated 1914 T runabout with a turtledeck wood floor. It’s still there. I recently sold a ‘19? - ‘22 turtledeck with a wood frame but no evidence of a wood floor. I am only trying to answer the OP’s question to the best of my ability and thought a photo might lend some credence.
Maybe Russ Furstnow will chime in. He has a ‘14 runabout and is a knowledgeable restorer.

[John kuehn]

When I bought the turtle deck years ago for my 1919 Roadster/Runabout it had a wood frame around the inside and a single piece in the middle with no evidence of a floor. It looked original to the turtle deck and had what was remaining of black paint. If I remember the main difference in the years were the two lid handles. The earlier ones 14-17? rounded and the later 17-22? flat. Also the later had clearance for the battery. More knowledgable folks would know more.

[Norman Kling]

Depends on whether you want a show car or a driver? If a driver, just find the correct turtle back and place it. My 22 has a wood floor with an opening for a battery. If you are not going to have a battery, just make the entire floor out of wood. Once the turtle back is installed, it will function just fine and you will get a lot of complements on your car. I know that a lot of things on mine are not original for that car, but I bought it from an estate and haven't done anything to the body. I have had the transmission out because the car is an atheist. Twice when I tried to drive to church it broke down. Once the low drum broke and I stopped right in the middle of the road couldn't even push it. Had to get a trailer and put a rolling jack under one end of the rear axle to winch it onto the trailer.
That happened about 10 years ago and it is running fine today. In fact I started it up and am going to clean the dust off it and drive to the local museum Saturday unless it rains.
If you want a show car, you have a lot of work and research to do to get everything perfect.
Norm

[Wayne Sheldon]

George H, There are so many confusing details about our beloved model Ts, so many things for which there are no definitive answers. Thank you for your comments and contributions. Very likely the earlier models did have the floor inside the turtle decks, and it may have been discontinued later to save a few more cents per car. The really curious thing to me is that I have seen a few (I did not look at many?) later starter era turtle decks that also had a floor in them. So again, all we can really do is speculate on the reasons and timelines.

Again George, I always look forward to reading your contributions here. I like to share what I think I know and spent many years trying to learn. And this forum is at its best when several people contribute to the discussions to give a more complete picture.

[Art Ebeling]

Thank you for all the responses. I can see the nail holes indicating where the turtledeck floor was nailed to the wood side frames under the turtledeck. I think the biggest challenge is going to be repairing the back of the body where the patch is. I assume the rear should curve into the turtledeck platform as Russ's does. Russ's is a Wilson body, can someone post a picture of the rear of a Boudette body without the turtledeck on it. Art

[George House]

Art, I’m very sorry but both my Beaudettes have a turtledeck installed. When the snowflakes start falling in Illinois, why don’t you drive south to sunny south central Texas and pick up that original turtledeck wood floor - like they all had.

[RajoRacer]

Very Cool, George - his & her Runabouts !!!

[George House]

Thanks Steve… the T on the left is an April 1914 so it has no bill front fenders and aluminum crank handle. The other is an October 1914 runabout so it has the ‘bill’ front fenders and cast iron crank handle. I’m very thankful to Wayne Sheldon for confirming the ‘14 models were factory assembled into very early 1915. They both sport U&J updraft carbs and are scary fast. I’d really like to give Art the turtledeck wood. Thought about donating it to the museum in Richmond for study or utilization.

[Art Ebeling]

George, Thats a great idea on the wood and I might be able to get that way. Can I let you know when I know? Art

[Wayne Sheldon]

George H, Wow, two beautiful 1914 runabouts! I like how you have two, build dates about six months apart. One representing the early 1914s, the other the late 1914s. Wonderful bookends showcasing a remarkable year of the model T.

As for the rear panel of the body? I don't have any good pictures of my 1915, and don't know for certain it would be the same either? But I can try to post a couple "before" pictures I do have.
First, a bit of backstory. My car is not an intact survivor. The body was separated from its original chassis decades ago, probably because the body was in poor condition and in the early days of the hobby it was common practice to simply replace the original body with a nice later one (somewhere out there is my car's original 1915 chassis with a later body on it?). The body went through a few owners, some doing some work on it, most doing more harm than good.
When my circumstances made me decide to put together a 1915 runabout (a car I have always liked and had fond memories of a few of them), a very good friend offered me this body which he had gotten with a 1914 chassis he wanted. I had been collecting late brass era model T parts for several years and had restored a 1916 center-door sedan some years earlier. So I already had most of the rest of what was needed to put together a fairly right 1915.
That is the background for my 1915. The body, however, still had its original manufacturer's serial number identification plate. It does not have the code for who built the body, although the manufacturer's steel plate does look like the ones used by Beaudette. The original wood was in poor condition, only about half of it was usable for patterns. It was mostly sort of intact, with very rusty original nails nearly rusted away. The rear deck was missing its floor, however the sills were still together enough to provide the original rear inside corner brackets. The cowl panel might have been changed by a past owner (it had been messed with), and the door and turtle deck were missing. The original manufacturer's date coded serial number plate was still nailed (very rusty nails!) onto the sill inside the front door (I kept that piece of wood). The date code indicates the body was an original February 1915 ordered/built body.

Is that rear panel on a February 1915 the same as a 1914? Your guess is as good as mine, but I suspect it likely would be the same in spite of the 1914 differences around the front of the bodies.
I had actually considered altering the front of the body to "create" a 1914 runabout. However, since the date coded manufacturer's serial number plate indicated that it was a real 1915 body, I decided I would rather have an almost real early 1915 than a real fake 1914. But while restoring the body? Doing research I found out that the 1914s used a different door hinge than the 1915 and later open cars. The bolt holes were located slightly differently, and the hinge was located a quarter inch higher on the 1914s than they were in 1915 onward. While restoring my 1915 runabout body, I found it had had the 1914 style hinge location.

Remember that the body had been separated from its original chassis, so it is sitting on a piled up chassis with 1916 fenders propped up as inspiration (?).

After all that? Whether these "before" pictures of my messed up body help you or not? Here they are in all their messed up glory.

[Original Smith]

I have an original 1913 runabout, and the sheet metal under the turtle deck starts just at the top of the body and goes all the way back to the rear.

[Bmodeltman]

On a real 14' the turtle deck is more forward than the later roadsters. On my 19 the deck is almost even with the rear sill cross member and the 14 is im guessing 3/4 to inch ahead of the rear sill.

[Russ_Furstnow]

The rear body panel on my son's 1914 runabout is like Larry Smith's 1913 runabout. It is one piece that goes all the way under the turtle deck. Also, the bead on the back panel is different that some other bodies. This is a Wilson body and was produced in August 1914.

Regarding the turtle decks, the 1914 turtle deck that was on my son's 1914 (the car photographed) did not have a wood floor. The steel floor provides strength for the items stored in the turtle deck. I have a 1913, Wilson body runabout, and it is identical to my son's 1914, with a one piece rear panel and no wood floor in the turtle deck. It seems that Wilson bodies varied from other manufacturer's bodies.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Interesting! Thank you Russ F.

[Art Ebeling]

Here is the latest picture of the 14 Runabout body after removing the paint. Art

[Russ_Furstnow]

Art, The turtle deck floor looks great. Is there any letter stamped into the kick panel just below the seat cushion? Russ Furstnow

[George House]

Yes ! You’ve obviously accomplished a lot ! You can cut off the cancerous rustout at the lower back body panel and there exists machines that can correctly curl 20 ga sheetmetal to MIG weld to the original squared off panel. I’m curious of the 2 vertical holes in the very rear ostensibly for the tail lamp bracket ? My 2 (4) bracket holes are on a horizontal plane ? A bit of $35 research I had done at BF Archives revealed the carriage bolts at this location used SQUARE NUTS. FWIW

[Wayne Sheldon]

Another for whatever it is worth?
There are some obvious changes between 1914 and 1915. However, my 1915 in spite of poor condition, still had the inside corner brackets in place. The 1915 tail lamp and bracket are of course quite different from the 1914, and the original bracket had been broken off. Yet the original bolts for the bracket were in place. And so were the square nuts. And that is how I restored it.

[Art Ebeling]

Russ, There is a B on the seat riser. George, I am glad you noticed the tail light bracket holes. I do not have a bracket and I think the holes should be horizontal like yours. Art