Strong kickback on crank since replacing the timer

[rainer]

Hi.
Meanwhile I successfully replace the roller timer by a new (similar) one.
I also verified the distance of 65mm / 2.5" between spark advance rod on timer and the screw at oil fill socket.

Because the battery was empty, I connected the battery charger and tried to crank start the engine for first test run while the battery is charging.

Of course, spark is fully retarded, engine is primed, throttle 1/4 open. As I always have.

I never had so strong kickback before.

I will verify that wires are correctly assigned.

Looking to the front of timer, are this the correct cylinder numbers?

Code: Select all

         o-------------------- Spark advance rod
     1       3
         *
     2       4

I will wait until battery is charged, then I will try to with electric starter.

[TXGOAT2]

If you get kickback with the spark on full retard, something will have to be adjusted. You should have no kickback at all when starting the car, whether you use the starter or the hand crank. Be certain the wires are in the proper order, and adjust linkage as necessary to get the spark to occur after top dead center with the spark lever on full retard.

[rainer]

If you get kickback with the spark on full retard, something will have to be adjusted.

LOL
This I also knew before.

When I accidentally interchanged two wires, can it kick back, or will it not ignite at all?

[Humblej]

Your timing is off. The 2.5" setting only works for a genuine Ford timer and roller. Anythong else requires using a rod down the sparkplug hole to find TDC. Lots of older postings on how to do it.

[George House]

Rainer said he replaced the timer with a “similar one”. Aren’t you able to install a roller 180* off ?? Maybe thats his Hunter Biden, er, ah, I mean kickback problem.

[John kuehn]

If you replaced the timer did you replace the wires one wire at a time when you changed it? That’s a fool proof way to do it to avoid mixing up the timer wires.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

1; wiring incorrect. 2; rod position changed.

[Moxie26]

Every commutator replacement requires correct adjustment of initial timing position, regardless of manufacturer.

[TXGOAT2]

Mixed up timer wires can cause kickback. They are color coded, but that only works if they are connected properly at the coil end, and they may not be.

[NealW]

When you replaced the rotor, did the camshaft have the hole for the rotor pin drilled all the way through the camshaft? Earlier camshafts were made that way. If so, you may have installed the rotor 180 degrees out of phase.

[DanTreace]

This sketch may help to check the timer case wiring.

timer wiring.jpeg (42.73 KiB) Viewed 701 times

For timing, a good method to check the timer case is rotated past TDC is to note the pulley pin being just past horizontal. Kickbacks can happen with timer fitted at TDC or before. The timing should be past TDC, about 15 degrees for safety in starting to prevent kickbacks, esp. for safety of the starter Bendix and spring. The timer rod controls when the timer is in full retard with spark lever all the way up.

Timing by crank pulley.jpeg (85.28 KiB) Viewed 701 times

The timer case should be fitted to the timer rod when the crank pulley pin in is this 9:20 position as on a clock face, just after the top of the compression stroke. This position is approx. 15 degrees past TDC.

[Steve Jelf]

Quit wasting your time measuring any distance. THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT. Try this:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

[TRDxB2]

Hi.
Meanwhile I successfully replace the roller timer by a new (similar) one.
I also verified the distance of 65mm / 2.5" between spark advance rod on timer and the screw at oil fill socket.

Because the battery was empty, I connected the battery charger and tried to crank start the engine for first test run while the battery is charging.

Of course, spark is fully retarded, engine is primed, throttle 1/4 open. As I always have.

I never had so strong kickback before.

I will verify that wires are correctly assigned.

Looking to the front of timer, are this the correct cylinder numbers?

Code: Select all

         o-------------------- Spark advance rod
     1       3
         *
     2       4

I will wait until battery is charged, then I will try to with electric starter.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Double check the commutator wires at the coil box as well, just to be sure. FWIW, yes, wiring out of sequential order definitely CAN result in a kick-back. Also, trying to start against a kick-back can result in a broken starter motor. Price of parts these days, almost as painful as a broken arm !

[Aussie16]

Great advice by Dan and Rich! A simple timer change over can easily cause your kickback problem if you either accidently cross a wire over or the timer you have installed is different to what you had. In this case it sounds like you have installed the same timer so the crossed wire sounds more viable? Double check connections at both timer and coilbox ends. Those wires get dirty and sometimes it is hard to see the ccolours!

[Shrshot]

Quit wasting your time measuring any distance. THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT. Try this:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

Steve, would it also work to put a magnetic angle finder on the bottom pulley. Set it at 0 degrees when #1 is at TDC and rotate until the angle finder is at 15 degrees? Just thinking it might be more accurate than guessing the crank pin is in the right position.

[Steve Jelf]

Kent, if that works best for you, go ahead. I think figuring out halfway between 3 and 4 on a clock face is pretty simple. I prefer simple.

[rainer]

Hello.

Only want to tell you the real reason for this horrible kickbacks...

The timer adjustment rod touched the screw contact of cylinder 4.
Funny that this electrically "coupled" cyl 3+4. Both where off when cyl 1 or 2 was buzzing, while both were on then...

So no wonder for this kickbacks. I bent and rearranged the connection of cyl 4 and the problem was solved.

Tomorrow I will test the engine. Had to buy a new battery, the old one was dead after 4 years. Could not turn the starter.
Now I have a OPTIMA RTS 6V battery, 50Ah. Hope it will last longer.

[Sarikatime]

Rainer, I will be in Vienna first of December, maybe we can meet again and go through some problems as necessary. Frank

[RajoRacer]

Rainer - verify that the pan bolt directly under the timer has the head up top & the nut down below - when reversed, it can cause #4 to ground !

[Rich P. Bingham]

Rainer - verify that the pan bolt directly under the timer has the head up top & the nut down below - when reversed, it can cause #4 to ground !

Good call, Steve ! Easy to miss, easier to forget when re-assembling a motor. So easy to ground a timer terminal !

[AndreFordT]

Had the same problem yesterday on a fresh rebuild engine.
Timer is a roller timer.
One of the wires (blue, 3rd cilinder) was connected with the terminal backwards and was touching the distribution cover.
How did I found it?
Set the contact on battery.
Turn the engine slowly by hand.
Than I found there were always two coils bussing, the one that was connected by the timer and coil 3.
Took the timer out and correct the connections.(all to the front away from the cover)
Engine is running great now and give me a free start at the end.

Just my story.
Andre
Belgium

[Dan Hatch]

Or find one of these. Early timing light.

[rainer]

Rainer - verify that the pan bolt directly under the timer has the head up top & the nut down below - when reversed, it can cause #4 to ground !

Sorry, I am not sure on what you say.
Looking onto the front of the timer (looking on timer "through the radior"), the connection bolts are arranged in "X".
Upper-Left = Cyl 1
Lower-Left = Cyl 2
Lower-Right = Cyl 4
Upper-Right = Cyl 3
And the Commutator/Timer rotates CCW.

Absolutely nothing can get in touch with contact bolts for Cyl 1/2/4.

You possibly simply count the connection bolts CCW in a circle and do not mean Cylinder numbers. That will explain why you write #4. But fireing order is 1-2-4-3.
The only bolt that can touch ground somewere (and can easily touch it) is Cyl #3, because it is located underneath the spark advance rod.

Anyway, problem is solved by correcting the connection for Cyl #4.

[rainer]

Had the same problem yesterday on a fresh rebuild engine.
Timer is a roller timer.
One of the wires (blue, 3rd cilinder) was connected with the terminal backwards and was touching the distribution cover.
How did I found it?
Set the contact on battery.
Turn the engine slowly by hand.
Than I found there were always two coils bussing, the one that was connected by the timer and coil 3.
Took the timer out and correct the connections.(all to the front away from the cover)
Engine is running great now and give me a free start at the end.

Just my story.
Andre
Belgium

This is exactly what I finally did.
I removed the coilbox-cover and slowly turned the engine. Whenever I heard a coil buzzing, I had a close look on the coil's contacts. The buzzing coil showed there little sparks. This way I found out that Cyl 1+2 buzzed "alone", then cyl 3+4 at same time, finally cyl 4 alone, ...
So I checked the wires on timer and solved the issue.

I don't know what Henry smoked when designing the timer-advance-rod, but that stuff was not good.
It hits the engine block, rubs on water hose, is too close to the timer, ... There would be lots easier ways to link the timer. At least the rod would benefit by being bent downwards 45~90 degrees 1" from the timer's eye (where it is hooked into the timer). This would rise the almost horizontal part 1/2" above the contact bolts and solve any issues with electric shorts.

Anyway, I keep it as-is to stay original. If I will get a short again, I will add a little bend and have to re-adjust the overall length of rod then.

[Moxie26]

Looks like a need to order a new timing rod from one of our suppliers. It will have the curves and angles that is necessary in that rod for proper clearances. Adjustments can be made to the new timing rod, either to lenghten/or shorten, to establish/retain initial proper commutator spark setting.

[DanTreace]

don't know what Henry smoked when designing the timer-advance-rod, but that stuff was not good.
It hits the engine block, rubs on water hose, is too close to the timer, ... There would be lots easier ways to link the timer.

If parts are stock, the Ford timer rod for the year of your T will work fine for doing timer adjustments.