Could it be the Oil ?!
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Could it be the Oil ?!
For those of you who have followed and contributed to my previous post regarding brake chattering I have a very interesting development. I was poised to pull the brake band to inspect the Kevlar lining I installed three years ago to see if it might be glazed and causing chattering at the last few feet of breaking.
Well, last night I decided to drain the 5w 20 oil and install some straight 30w. The engine was still hot from previous driving and I started it up and gave it a test drive up my favorite test hills and 40 mph straightaways here in the city. And ... no chatter when breaking.
In fact the car ran smoother and was generally more responsive. It reminded me of the vintage anti-chatter ads I’ve seen. Could it be as easy as that. It’s been years since I used 30w oil.
This morning I decided to give it another test since it was cold and different conditions than last night. Same thing. I drove around the neighborhood for about 1/2 hour and no chatter when breaking .. better driving.
Could it be that simple? Not anxious to start the car this winter with 30w but will definitely park it facing the door.
Well, last night I decided to drain the 5w 20 oil and install some straight 30w. The engine was still hot from previous driving and I started it up and gave it a test drive up my favorite test hills and 40 mph straightaways here in the city. And ... no chatter when breaking.
In fact the car ran smoother and was generally more responsive. It reminded me of the vintage anti-chatter ads I’ve seen. Could it be as easy as that. It’s been years since I used 30w oil.
This morning I decided to give it another test since it was cold and different conditions than last night. Same thing. I drove around the neighborhood for about 1/2 hour and no chatter when breaking .. better driving.
Could it be that simple? Not anxious to start the car this winter with 30w but will definitely park it facing the door.
-
- Posts: 3907
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Kuehn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
- Location: Texas
- MTFCA Number: 28924
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
All I can say this post will cause some interesting replies! My thought would be that thin viscosity oils may be ‘to thin’ for T engines. Overall T engines are not held to really close tolerances as today’s engines are. Maybe some builders build them closer than factory tolerances. But the average T isn’t I wouldn’t think. MHO of course!
‘
‘
-
- Posts: 1411
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
- First Name: Adam
- Last Name: Doleshal
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘13 Touring, ‘24 Touring, ‘25 TT dump truck, ‘26 Tudor, ‘20 Theiman harvester T powerplant, ‘20 T Staude tractor
- Location: Wisconsin
- MTFCA Number: 23809
- MTFCI Number: 1
- Board Member Since: 2000
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
5w20 is too thin for the T unless it’s below 30 degrees outside.
You’re lucky you didn’t do any engine damage!
You’re lucky you didn’t do any engine damage!
-
- Posts: 2385
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Strange
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Cut Off Touring (now a pickup)
- Location: Hillsboro, MO
- MTFCA Number: 30944
- MTFCI Number: 23667
- Board Member Since: 2013
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I follow Royce's recommendation and run 5W-30 year round with no ill effects.
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
-
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 pm
- First Name: Val
- Last Name: Soupios
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '10 touring, '12 touring, '13 hack, '14 runabout, '14 touring, '14 speedster, '22 centerdoor, '27 touring
- Location: Jupiter Florida
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I run straight 30wt oil in all my T's. One chatters, the others don't. They all have Kevlar bands. It might be that heavier oil helps but there has to be more to it than that!
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I switched to 5w 20 because of the suggestions on the forum suggesting that it may have been more like the oil recommended in the model T era by Ford.
For years I ran straight 30w in my previous T. Was a little hard to hand crank in a Pennsylvania winter. In this T I had been using 10w 30 since the rebuild three years ago. Nevertheless ... the 30w oil made a big difference all around. Lets see how long I can feel the difference. I drive about 100 miles a week.
For years I ran straight 30w in my previous T. Was a little hard to hand crank in a Pennsylvania winter. In this T I had been using 10w 30 since the rebuild three years ago. Nevertheless ... the 30w oil made a big difference all around. Lets see how long I can feel the difference. I drive about 100 miles a week.
-
- Posts: 4071
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
- First Name: Norman
- Last Name: Kling
- Location: Alpine California
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I use 10w30 in mine with Kevlar bands and have not had a problem. I would think 5w20 would be to thin because at both cold and hot temperatures the oil is thinner than 10w30. Straight 30 would be fine also but need to warm up a bit more before driving because the thickness could slow the oil in passing through the gravity flow oil line.
Norm
Norm
-
- Posts: 3389
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:53 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Wrenn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13 Touring, '26 "Overlap" Fordor
- Location: Ohio
- MTFCA Number: 30701
- MTFCI Number: 24033
- Board Member Since: 2019
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
My former '20 chartered a lot..until I tightened the band just a wee bit. Didnt tighten much..I think just one revolution to the next dimple in the washer is all. Settled 80% of it out. I always use 10/30 oil.
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I posted this new development on the model T Forum and had a couple people say that oil choice couldn’t fix the chatter (I guess other than masking it) and that it had to be either rear end or U-joint related.
So, now I have some people who have seen a difference between different types of bands or different types of oil removing the chatter. And I have others who say it must be something much more serious like the rivets on short shaft plate in the transmission, a bad U-joint, the rear axle or drive shaft bearings.
I’m very confused. What would I look for and test for in the rear or U-joint. I rebuilt all that stuff when I originally worked on the car three years ago. Or is it oil / band related and do I just drive it and keep a watchful eye?
So, now I have some people who have seen a difference between different types of bands or different types of oil removing the chatter. And I have others who say it must be something much more serious like the rivets on short shaft plate in the transmission, a bad U-joint, the rear axle or drive shaft bearings.
I’m very confused. What would I look for and test for in the rear or U-joint. I rebuilt all that stuff when I originally worked on the car three years ago. Or is it oil / band related and do I just drive it and keep a watchful eye?
-
- Posts: 4071
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
- First Name: Norman
- Last Name: Kling
- Location: Alpine California
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Mark. Try the easiest least expensive thing first such as adjusting the band and or changing the oil. If this doesn't fix your problem, then look for other fixes which might be more expensive, or just live with the problem.
Norm
Norm
-
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Noonan
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Runabout
- Location: Norton,Ma.
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Mark, if all that violent shaking and shuddering in your video was fixed by just using a thicker oil, I'll be the first to admit i was wrong. Drive it and see if the problem returns, if it doesn't, don't worry about it.
Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:17 pm
- First Name: Marty
- Last Name: Bufalini
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring
- Location: Michigan
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
At the recommendation of a long time and extremely knowledgable Model T collector, I use 20w50 with added transmission fluid. I've got kevlar bands. Haven't had any sort of issue in eight years.
-
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:06 pm
- First Name: Clyde
- Last Name: Gibson
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Fordor Sedan, 1926 Roadster
- Location: Springfield, MO
- MTFCA Number: 32266
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I run 15-40 year round. No problems with the bands or engine.
-
- Posts: 638
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:40 am
- First Name: CHARLIE
- Last Name: BRANCA
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: "27 Tudor / "23 Touring
- Location: Brick N.J.
- MTFCA Number: 28967
- Board Member Since: 2010
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I know a guy that runs a bit of ATF in the oil because it stopped the wood bands from chattering. So to answer your question : yep.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
JP,
I went out again today and tried to make the brakes chatter and they just wouldn’t. I’m amazed. But also a little paranoid if there is something more important being masked by the higher viscosity oil. Like I said I was prepared to remove the bands to inspect them and then pull the back axle / driveshaft out to inspect that too. But everything sounds and works fine.
I went out again today and tried to make the brakes chatter and they just wouldn’t. I’m amazed. But also a little paranoid if there is something more important being masked by the higher viscosity oil. Like I said I was prepared to remove the bands to inspect them and then pull the back axle / driveshaft out to inspect that too. But everything sounds and works fine.
-
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:15 pm
- First Name: George P
- Last Name: Clipner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '26 Touring
- Location: LakeOzark,Missourah
- MTFCI Number: 18665
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
!0/30 is great for running around town. If doing any long distance runs I'd use 15/40 or 20/50. I used 1/2qt ATF when I was using standard 10/30 and it did help with chattering. I've since switched over to full synthetic 20/50 Z-Rod by Amsoil or Walmart 20/50 4stroke motorcycle full syntec and no chattering issues. my car loves it for the last 4 years. Car is running turbo400 clutch and levies.
-
- Posts: 2345
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
- First Name: Dave
- Last Name: Hanlon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Touring car
- Location: NE Ohio
- MTFCA Number: 50191
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I hope that's all it was Mark.
I also think you may have mistaken what some were saying about original oil. Being close to a straight 20 weight, which is nothing like 5W-20.
The later being much thinner. 5W-20 is a fairly recent requirement for newer engines with hydraulic chain tensioners, variable valve timing, etc. New stuff has zero tolerance to sludge.
My car has been running on 10W-30 here in NE Ohio for as long as I can remember. No starting problem when cold out (30s ?).
I also think you may have mistaken what some were saying about original oil. Being close to a straight 20 weight, which is nothing like 5W-20.
The later being much thinner. 5W-20 is a fairly recent requirement for newer engines with hydraulic chain tensioners, variable valve timing, etc. New stuff has zero tolerance to sludge.
My car has been running on 10W-30 here in NE Ohio for as long as I can remember. No starting problem when cold out (30s ?).
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Here is one post that suggests 5w20 oil for climates under 95 degrees ... which is Rochester except for mid August. There were also other posts. I only used it for about a month here this late spring / early summer.
-
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:13 pm
- First Name: Hal
- Last Name: Schedler
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Speedster, 23 RA, 25 Fordor
- Location: Sacramento
- MTFCA Number: 16688
- MTFCI Number: 19356
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
FWIW, my Fordor has an "A" crank with inserted main bearings and a drilled block with an engine driven oil pump. I can't maintain oil pressure with 10-30 oil. I have to run 30 to keep the pressure up. I also have an electric oil pump to get the pressure up to 40psi before I start the engine. I run 30 in all my Ts. (3)
-
- Posts: 5411
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Brandi
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Hal Just curious - how old was the 5W20. Oil loses its viscosity over time (heat, contamination for other lubricants, fuel etc), another reason to change it. So the arguments about 5W20 being to thin may be further substantiated if you hadn't changed it for some time.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
-
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:13 pm
- First Name: Hal
- Last Name: Schedler
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Speedster, 23 RA, 25 Fordor
- Location: Sacramento
- MTFCA Number: 16688
- MTFCI Number: 19356
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Hi Frank, The pump pushes the oil through a filter but I still change oil often. I own an auto repair business and pump oil from 55 drums . I special order 30 weight in quarts for the T's.
-
- Posts: 1518
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
- First Name: Duane
- Last Name: Cooley
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 18 Runabout, 24 Runabout for 20yrs, 25 TT, late Center Door project, open express pickup
- Location: central MN
- MTFCA Number: 32488
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Very interesting thread and I know you'll keep us up to date with your daily driver which is really cool. I like that.
I happen to have 15-30 in my 18 and he never bucks me but the 24 (5-30 or whatever tops him off) chatters the last couple feet but he's shot (worn out).
When you are first stopped with your foot on the pedal, your Runabout doesn't roll back and forth a small amount like the shot 24 does it?
Probly not. That tells all is well behind the transmission.
These tough little buggers are the same but all a bit different from each other.
I happen to have 15-30 in my 18 and he never bucks me but the 24 (5-30 or whatever tops him off) chatters the last couple feet but he's shot (worn out).
When you are first stopped with your foot on the pedal, your Runabout doesn't roll back and forth a small amount like the shot 24 does it?
Probly not. That tells all is well behind the transmission.
These tough little buggers are the same but all a bit different from each other.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
-
- Posts: 5411
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Brandi
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Oops, sorry Hal I meant Mark O. Mark, Just curious - how old was the 5W20. Oil loses its viscosity over time (heat, contamination for other lubricants, fuel etc), another reason to change it. So the arguments about 5W20 being to thin may be further substantiated if you hadn't changed it for some time.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
-
- Posts: 6463
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
- Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
- MTFCA Number: 16175
- MTFCI Number: 14758
- Board Member Since: 2007
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
I switched to 5w 20 because of the suggestions on the forum suggesting that it may have been more like the oil recommended in the model T era by Ford.
I made the same mistake. That, combined with a prodigious leak, may have contributed to my rod failure. As Adam says, 5W-20 is NOT the same as the old 20 weight recommended by Ford. I see by Royce's website that he is now using 5W-30, not the 5W-20 he posted about in 2010. I'm currently using 10W-30, but I'm considering a switch to 10W-40 because that's what some very knowledgeable Model T folks are using.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Steve, Well, thank goodness my engine is fine. No knocks or other strange sounds as far as I can tell. I only had the 5w 20 in there for a short time as a trial. What a mistake that was in hindsight. Right now I’m going to keep running with the SAE 30 since it evidently cured the chattering from what I see so far and is clearly better for the engine. But I’ll have to change as winter approaches and starting becomes harder with the higher viscosity.
-
Topic author - Posts: 1011
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Osterman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 runabout
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
Duey, no, my drive train is in very good condition, very little slop and no roll back after breaking. This is why I was so resistant to the concept that the chatter was being caused by mechanical problems in the rear axle or the short shaft. I went through everything when I rebuilt the car because I knew how much regular driving / service it was going to get.
Frank, That 5w 20 oil was only in there a few weeks in late fall early summer as a test in my quest for stopping the chatter I was experiencing. I had not taken any long trips during that time .. just driving to work and around town. Learned my lesson though ....
Frank, That 5w 20 oil was only in there a few weeks in late fall early summer as a test in my quest for stopping the chatter I was experiencing. I had not taken any long trips during that time .. just driving to work and around town. Learned my lesson though ....
-
- Posts: 6463
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
- Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
- MTFCA Number: 16175
- MTFCI Number: 14758
- Board Member Since: 2007
- Contact:
Re: Could it be the Oil ?!
For those who haven't seen it, here's a chart from the MTFCA engine book.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring