REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

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WillH
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REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by WillH » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm

I would like to hear from anyone with hands on experience building/running a reverse flow engine. This engine will run backwards to normal and have four intake ports and two exhaust ports. I'm not concerned with the transmission band and I know the ring gear goes on the other side. This is a push start or hand cranked so no starter or generator to sort out. I know about needing the straight cut timing gears and am currently looking for a good set of these; if you have a set? I am mainly concerned about cam lift, duration and timing. Keep in mind this is a fairground racer/hill climb car; bare bones; under 1000 lbs.; think Noel Bullock"s #24. I am currently building the chassis and gathering parts and information for the engine. My plans; Z head, EE crank and stock rods with splash (outside)oiling ; I have a T cam reground to 280 lift; I am sure that is not enough; Undecided on distributor or high tension mag. Thanks ..................

WillH


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Plankhill » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:26 pm

I have T power unit that runs counter clockwise . The fan, crank ratchet , etc looks factory. The governor is in the transmission.


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Allan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Anyone, if the aim is to get 4 intakes and two exhausts, would it not be easier to make a custom camshaft allow the motor to work the same way as standard? I thought valve timing, firing order etc were all part of the work of the cam. Or am I mistaken?

Allan from down under.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:43 pm

Allan,

The camshaft might be able to be built by Specialty Cams, it is just a reversed engineered cam with the lopes being opposite in angle to the cylinder they were representing. Keep your firing order the same. Use non demountable bands, don’t forget oiling from the flywheel and the cam bearing are in opposite of throw too. Just tying help. I have a reverse fan if you require it from a Model T power unit, you just pay the shipping. I have some odd reverse or can be made into reverse counter clockwise rotation distributors easy enough with centrifugal advance.

Allan, just let me know if I can assist.

Hank from Up Yonder! Dixieland area.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:48 pm

Also on a side note, using straight gears are not necessary. But it is adviseable to use some sort of thrust washer behind the timing gear on the crankshaft and some sort on the front of the cam gear.
Now the gear lash will stay in check with applied torque!

All the Best from Up Yonder!


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Bill Dizer » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:08 pm

Is there a reason to reverse the direction of rotation? Otherwise grinding a cam so that the valve in the exhaust port opens as the piston is going down to suck gas and air in, then the valves close for compression stroke, and the power stroke, then the valve in the old intake port opens on the exhaust stroke. The pistons don't care which valve port is which, just that they open at the right time. You might want to do some porting and polishing if there is material to remove. You would want to avoid having the two cylinders on the same exhaust port avoid firing one after another. 1342 would do it, I think. This way, all your bands,starter, oiling systems etc could still work.

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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by John Warren » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:29 pm

I was also wanting to do this. I have a reverse ground cam. Before I got this, I was going to run a chain on the cam to reverse it. There was a Guy in our club Frank, that did this once. The story that I get was it run well but would blow the head gasket for some reason. I have a modified head where he had put a couple of extra head bolts in it to solve this problem. He passed away before I could meet him. They say that the problem with rpm is the siamese intake ports. People have been putting over head valve heads on their engines and they still have siamese ports, so Im not convinced that's the problem. Ron Kelly,an engine builder in Texas, runs a flat head model A that makes over a hundred hp. So like I said I am not convinced that's the problem. I still think it would be fun to play with it.
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:19 pm

I guess I got a little excited about this, someone thinking odd ball like me!

Will H. this is your baby so of course I extend the same to you!

All the Best,

Hank in Tin-A-See


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:50 pm

Is there a reason for doing this?
Norm


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Les Schubert » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:31 pm

My experience with the concept is very satisfactory, but I achieved it differently. I opened up intake port to about double the area and then inserted a divider and built a 4 runner intake manifold. The benefit is that it makes use of a much longer duration camshaft and the corresponding power increase.
I have considered the reverse flow idea and worked out a design for a chain driven camshaft.
Running the transmission backwards is very likely to be unsatisfactory because the bands will no longer be “self energizing “. Ford obviously considered this to be a important issue, as the design of the RHD cars retains this feature.
All the best


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Allan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 am

Les, I'm a bit like Bill. Can the engine be made to rotate in the same way as standard, but with the cylinders sucking in through the existing exhaust valves and out through the intakes? Isn't this controlled by the camshaft design? That way there would be no need for any transmission alterations.

I was interested in your comments about the transmission bands being self energising. I hadn't made that observation. And then you put in the LHD/RHD difference and I am even more confused. Can you explain it for me?

Allan from down under.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:57 am

I don't think the bands would be any more self energizing then stock. I thought about this at one time, would be fun to have a T that ran the other way. LOL Don't forget to swap your rear end around. :mrgreen:
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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WillH
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Re: REVERSE FLOW/ REVERSE ROTATION ENGINE

Post by WillH » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:38 am

Hey guys; thanks for all the replies. Keep the ideas, thoughts and experiences coming. I have no on-hands experience with this concept, however I have read what I could find and thought the process through. I should have included "reverse rotation" in the title since a reverse flow engine can be configured to turn either direction; turning the engine backwards eliminates the custom built camshaft and/or the custom built chain drive. The early straight cut timing gears eliminate the cam forward thrust problem; these gears should be very available since most everyone opts for the angle cut gears because of noise. I NEED A GOOD SET OF STRAIGHT CUT GEARS, if you have a set. Other than the intake/exhaust manifolding, one only need change the ignition firing order on the reverse rotation engine. I see no indication that the transmission bands energize either way. Using the stock timing camshaft opens the door to all sorts of cam grinds at reasonable cost. ................WillH

howardman42@yahoo.com


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Tiger Tim » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:44 am

Obviously the reason to build a reverse-flow T engine is more power and to do that you'll need a fancy cam anyways, so just get an extra-fancy valve-swapping cam so you only need to do that and your manifolds. At the end of the day that would have to be by far the easiest way to do it, no?

I had thought a bunch about this a couple years ago and had started to worry about exhaust heat being concentrated through the former intake ports maybe causing issues. I'm not an engine builder or any sort of engineer so I couldn't tell you, but I think that would be the weakest link to watch in operation.


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:21 pm

I perhaps used the wrong wording about the bands. If you look at the band installation, the torque load is against the cover and the clamping is applied against the unloaded side. On the RHD cars this concept is maintained by conceptually reversing the internals of the pedal systems.
In reverse rotation, the torque loads will be applied against the pedal clamping ramps.
I suspect this will be unsatisfying, but certainly I may be wrong.
I have done a preliminary design for a chain cam drive (which essentially reverses the cam rotation). With this a stock cam will function. The extra port area should achieve a modest performance improvement, and considering that you are just running a stock splash bottom end, then that should be satisfying with out blowing up your engine. For a chain tensioner ,if it is necessary, I would run the chain around the generator as well and then stack shims under the generator bracket as required. Might require a little slotting of the applicable front cover holes
Again all the best


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Larry25T » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:27 pm

This is sounding close to the 2 up 2 down engine of Ed Winfield, except for the more conventional crankshaft and the reverse running, and I think some manifold modifications..
Interested in seeing how your ideas workout.


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:42 pm

I have a 2 up 2 down crank and camshaft that was started by another person. I have had a SERIOUSLY aggressive grind put on the cam. I have used this grind before using the divided intake ports. The cam works best if it also has high compression. The crank, of course has BIG counterweights and is drilled for pressure oil. It is stock T stroke. Hopefully I will live long enough to get to it!!

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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by steve plowman » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:05 am

I keep coming back to the idea of reversing the cam drive using Windsor 302 cam chain and sprockets to change the flow, WillH or Les have you taken this project any further? I have a spare short block and plan to mock the reverse drive up to plot the timing changes.
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by John Warren » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:01 am

It should help rpms. I have a reverse ground cam and would like to try it some day.
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by steve plowman » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:27 am

John Warren wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:01 am
It should help rpms. I have a reverse ground cam and would like to try it some day.
That is my hope, what lift etc. is your cam? Did you get it ground from a stock one?
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Dan McEachern » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:01 pm

I have a new set of straight cut cam gears on the shelf. Bronze cam gear and 4140 steel crank gear. Send me an e-mail at dmcgears@yahoo.com if you are interested. Dan


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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by lesvonnordheim » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:47 pm

A good friend of mine in the San Diego area did this several years ago. It was an experiment brought on by wanting to see if fuel injection could be incorporated in a T engine. He quickly found out sharing ports did not work in less you added a plate to separate the ports. He cut up/welded a stock cam configured to use the exhaust ports as intake and the old intake as exhaust. He made up tube manifolds and got it to run fairly good. He also built a Dino in order to measure HP readings. If interested, send me a private message and I will try and get you in contact with him.

We also put a no name aftermarket aluminum manifold using a Tillotson model A carb. and gained 3 HP vice a NH carb. That was at 2100 RPM which is much higher RPM that one would normally spin a T engine. This only proves the standard intake/carb. on a model T is restrictive and can be improved upon for greater HP.

Les

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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by steve plowman » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:52 am

Thanks Les, PM sent 8-)
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by ShirkWood » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:32 am

The late Felix Graves in Broken Arrow, OK, had a T speedster that the engine ran backwards. I am pretty sure it was just a flathead engine but he won the Tulsa Hill Climb with it...beating out some overhead setups. Maybe back in the 1970s. Don't know what happened to the car.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:04 am

Nice to know that I am not the only one that has thought about a reverse running engine. :lol: I had given some thought to this. My list of concerns at the time were; starter/generator, bands, cranking. Never thought about the teeth on the cam/crank gear, turning the intake port into exhaust, firing order and was unsure about the cam. Interesting information, thanks.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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steve plowman
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by steve plowman » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:18 am

Shirkwood wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:32 am
The late Felix Graves in Broken Arrow, OK, had a T speedster that the engine ran backwards. I am pretty sure it was just a flathead engine but he won the Tulsa Hill Climb with it...beating out some overhead setups. Maybe back in the 1970s. Don't know what happened to the car.
https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/MTFCA/A ... eRacer.pdf
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Mark Gregush
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:47 am

I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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1948 Ford F2 pickup

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steve plowman
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Re: REVERSE FLOW ENGINE

Post by steve plowman » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Mark Gregush wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:47 am
How about this ;) ;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-T-Ford-A ... SwJStcWJho

Ive been watching that, just a little above my budgat 🤣🤣
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