MTFCA Forum

Hey guys,

Can anyone offer any suggestions on what would cause this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

Thanks,

Jeff in Florida

wheel nuts hitting the nut for the leaf spring bracket, you might want to check the Babbitt washers out inside the rear axle before you go through a stop sign.

With total destruction of all the good hard to find parts!

I agree with Joe, if you remove the wheel I'll bet you'll see witness marks where the hub nuts are rubbing on a the rear perch nut on the backing plate.

If you know that your rear axle has been rebuilt with bronze thrust washers and you don't have any axle side play, install an axle shim to space the wheel out further.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2505SH.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2505SHB.aspx

Thanks, Joe. But, could you explain? I'm very new to the craft.

I had the wheel off this morning. There were 2 paper thin shims in there and they were pretty beat up and worn through in some spots.
I ordered more from Lang's.

Will the whole axle need to be rebuilt?

You can make your own shims from a tin can or piece of sheet metal, etc.

Do not use aluminum pop or beer cans or brass.

Rear axle Babbitt failure is explained here:

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html

There's no sure way to know if the thrust washers have been replaced without disassembling the axle and looking. You can't see the washers through the fill hole.

I want to be sure of what Mark is saying here.

CudaMan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:22 pm

...and you don't have any axle side play

Would that 'play' be a sloppiness along this axis?

loose wheel hub bolts will make a clicking noise if you have wood wheels. Check the 6 bolts and make sure they are not loose.

Here is discussion showing what the effect of the hub nuts rubbing on the perch nut looks like
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1487778886

Yes, the green arrows show the direction of side play I was talking about.

If it turns out that you have no side play and you decide to use shims on the axle taper, be sure to keep the inner edge of the shim away from the axle seal so that the seal doesn't get cut or otherwise damaged by the shim.

This problem may well have developed because of the use of two shims. Adding one shim introduces two different interfaces within the hub, one between the hub and the outside of the shim, another between the inside of the shim and the axle. By adding a second shim, the problem is worsened. There is every chance the hub was not tight on the axle taper and it was 'working' on the shims and the axle. This will cause wear in the components. If a shim is needed, it should be thick enough so that only one shim is required. If the new shims ordered require the fitting of two of them to space the wheel further from the backing plate, they should be discarded in favour of a thicker single shim.
If there is no endplay in the axles to be concerned about, I would carefully inspect the axle keyway, the key and the hub taper. This is one situation where, once the correct thickness shim is ascertained, the wheel can be fitted with new axle key and a liberal application of Loktite 'quickmetal' to take up any slop/irregularities in the keyway and the hub.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

Loose spokes???

Jeff5015 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:16 pm

I want to be sure of what Mark is saying here.

CudaMan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:22 pm

...and you don't have any axle side play

Would that 'play' be a sloppiness along this axis?
AxlePlay.jpg

Jeff,

The axle key, as it's shown in your photo, is upside down. The curved side of the key is meant to fit into the curved bottom of the axle keyway, so that the key doesn't sit too high, causing the hub bind on it instead of allowing the hub to seat properly on the taper. I really believe that your clicking noise is a result of this issue. Since the hub can't seat properly on the axle shaft, there is movement between the two, causing the sound you're hearing.

Try to put it together with the key properly placed and without using shims. If that fixes it, then great. If you absolutely need the shim, then go ahead, but recognize that it's a band-aid approach and that your hub, axle or thrust washers most likely will need attention soon.

In 2011, the right front wheel of my 1926 coupe made this sound when rolling just before I found loose spokes with a brown powder coating the rim surrounding the spokes. When the spokes are loose, a small gap appears between the rim and the spokes end. As the wheel turns, the spoke at the bottom drops, closing the gap, which makes a clicking sound as the spoke makes contact with the rim. The multiple clicks occur due to the multiple spokes hitting against the rim as the vertical downward pressure of the car seats the bottom spoke as the gap on the upper spoke opens up. When spokes get loose it is a very dangerous situation requiring immediate attention, especially if the loose spokes are accompanied by the dry brown powder, indicating dry rot and complete spoke breakdown from the inside. It also erodes, loosens, and rounds off the spoke end dowels, which is the only thing that keeps the spoke secured to the rim. Jim Patrick

Thanks Allen,

Very good advice. Like I said the restoration was done 30 years ago and there were 2 shims. They had worn through is spots and the castle nut was loose after removing the cotter pin.

The photo with the green arrows was from an earlier post that I used as an illustration.

All 4 wheels have really solid spokage. No gaps or loosness, so at this point I'm convinced it is a matter of getting the correct thickness of shim in place.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will post again when repaired.

Jeff

Note in the links in my earlier post that Lang's sells two thicknesses of shims, maybe one of the thick ones will do the trick instead of stacking up thin ones.

Or, you can cut your own out of whatever thickness of steel sheet you deem appropriate:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1293283657

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1394720602

Shims are needed to take up wear in the axle or hub or both. Alan is correct that one shim is the correct number. You can buy stainless steel shim stock in any thickness from McMaster Carr and cut your own shims. You can make a template out of paper to cut the shims. New axles are made slightly longer than the original ones to compensate for wear in most hubs.

The nut on the rear wheels comes loose after a few hundred to a few thousand miles. It is a regular maintenance task to tighten the nuts, once every 6 months or so, depending on how much you drive your car. Never loosen the nut to line up the cotter key hole. The nut should be tightened to 200 foot-pounds, or if you do not have a torque wrench, very tight using a breaker bar.

Still sounds like creaking spokes. Can you swap the rear wheels and tires? Please post the fix when you solve the problem.

Jeff5015 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:21 pm

Thanks Allen,

Very good advice. Like I said the restoration was done 30 years ago and there were 2 shims. They had worn through is spots and the castle nut was loose after removing the cotter pin.

The photo with the green arrows was from an earlier post that I used as an illustration.

All 4 wheels have really solid spokage. No gaps or loosness, so at this point I'm convinced it is a matter of getting the correct thickness of shim in place.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will post again when repaired.

Jeff

Jeff,

The noise was caused by the hub being loose on the axle due to worn away shims. This what shims do after a while. If you use them, periodically check the tightness of the axle nut.