MTFCA Forum

Does he prefer that you give him the entire wheel? Not counting the rim of course for a demountable wheel.

Would he prefer just the felloe(metal) and the hub along with one spoke so he knows the size spoke needed?

Will he clean and paint the felloe and hub for you?

Obviously I would clean and degrease it as much as possible before I give it to him.

Payment up front? Cash, Check, or CC?

Thank you.

Dave, they would take them about any way you send, but don’t expect a primed rim back . Unless your spoke is something unique ( teardrop, etc) they don’t need it. In my many visits there, I’ve seen new wood in whatever people send them.
Here is what I’ve done. Rims and hubs sandblasted. You will want to at least prime the rim. ( epoxy prime, or etching primer) Better yet to powder coat the rim, if it’s a metal felloe. I also powder coat the hubs. I open the hub plate up just a tad so it will slide over the hub without scarring the new powder coat. If paint is where you are heading, then prime these parts but throw some paint on where it will be covered . That will protect from rusting. I always put a scrap of bicycle inner tube over the threads, to protect in handling and shipping.
For wood felloes , same thing. At very least, good primer with some scrap paint where the felloe will cover it up. If not, eventually you will have some nice rust stains showing.
The more prep you do, the quicker the turnaround. I always supply hub bolts, and powder coat the heads, for just regular late wheels.
I can’t speak for Noah, but I don’t believe they are set up to do your metal work, and I wouldn’t want them too. No money up front. Regardless of the service you hire, that’s a really bad idea.

Tim covered it all accurately. The one thing I do (if needed) is if there is any pitting to address on things like the rims or flange plates, I do the initial filler work and give it a light priming before I send it to them. It is much easier to do the sanding with the wheel disassembled so that you don't have spokes and bolt heads to sand around. I also tell them not to peen the hub bolts in the event that I want to pop something apart, and I have a certain way that I like them done and just plain prefer to do it myself. On rear wheels it comes out better to spray the color on the wheel and drum separate and then assemble after it is dry.

Great points, Walt. I generally find hub bolts need to be shortened from how they come back from Stutzman. I don’t think he peened the last set, but I may have asked him not to.

So you are recommending bare metal to new wood?

Steve, When you mention "Valve Tubes", are you referring to the Ferrul for wood fellow wheels like Chaffins part # 2830? Just wondering, but I checked with Chaffins and that part is no longer available from them.
Keith

You can take 1/2 “ inch copper plumbing pipe, flare one end to where you like it, fit Into the stem hole to see where it needs to be cut, cut and put back into the stem hole and flare the inside by placing the flaring tool across the fellow. In other words the flaring tool is touching both ends of the copper tube, that way it can be held in place. Take your time flaring so you don’t split the tube, but you can always start over since it only takes about ten minutes per wheel. I didn’t say it was easy but I have done it several times. Frank

I had a set of wheels done for my 1912. I was most disappointed in the quality. When I set the wheels up and spun them they were wobbly and the rims were not true to the hub. I sent him cleaned and primed rims and hubs that were as near perfect as possible.

After further investigation he assembled the fellows in the rim fixing them with short Philips head screws and countersunk my rims to allow the screw head to be flush., instead of the original type fasteners that Ford used. I had to weld up the countersunk holes grind down and redrill the correct size holes. I called him and his answer was oh that must have been the new guy sorry. I corrected the poor workmanship and replaced the 1/2" long cheesy Philips screws and no compensation was ever offered.

I now send my wheels to Whitmers in New Holland Pa far better quality and a bit less expensive. I know of another person that sent his wood wheels to Stutzmans these were for a very early brass car. 3 wheels were correct and the 4th wheel did not have the correct amount of spokes. He called and they said to send it back for corrections, same excuse used oh the new guy must have done that wheel. My friend had to pay the freight both ways to fix their screw up. Stutzman offered no compensation for the freight both ways from California to Ohio. I much prefer Whitmers for the above reasons, just a personal preference.

I suggest to be very specific and get it in writing!!!! if you are sending an original wheel take pictures. specify the fellow rim fasteners.

frontyboy

So you are recommending bare metal to new wood?

As original. You don't have to do it if you don't like it.

frontyboy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:14 pm

I had a set of wheels done for my 1912. I was most disappointed in the quality.

Harold Musolf -- why do you post under this false name of "Dick Dock"? When last we visited this issue:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1434157037

.... it was established that you farmed out this job through a middle-man and that you had no contact with the actual wheelwright prior to your having received them. Furthermore, you're still complaining about the countersunk flathead screws in your 1912 wheels -- which are correct for 1912 wheels (that change having taken place after about 150,000 were built):

OCT 17 Ford Archives
T291B front wheel assembly. Specifed 3/16" rivets to be used to hold the rim to the felloe, replacing the #10 x 3/4" flat-head wood screws being used. Also specified that the hole for the inner tube valve stem be lined with 9/16" 25 ga. steel tubing to prevent chafing.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc12.htm

I have now done at least seven wheel jobs with Stutzman, each time supplying him (not a middle-man) with complete sets of properly prepared hardware and have no complaints. Please don't leave out of the narrative the fact that you weren't managing the job yourself, but rather paying someone else to shuffle your parts around and handle the communication for you.

One thing I would do prior to shipping my parts is true up the flanges on the wheel hubs, particularly the front wheels. It seems like a lot of wheels have suffered from curb checks and are bent, sometimes quite a bit.

I sure don’t understand why I get into these threads. I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. I believe Henry lowered them in a vat of black something and then spun the excess off. He also hosed the black paint on the bodies with garden hoses. And dipped most the rest in vats. He sure didn’t use rattle can refrigerator epoxy. I would also guess owners back then didn’t care if rust stains started oozing out between the felloe and rim. They were so dusty,dirty and or muddy, nobody gave a whit. What a couple of us intended by offering advice was to get a very long lasting set of wheels done. I’m doing a show quality set next spring and I’m taking Walters advice to do so.
YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CANT MAKE HIM DRINK
I have to add that’s really poor to badmouth Noah Stutzman here. You got my BUCKEYE up a bit. I’ve had a half dozen sets done by him over the years and can only say my experience was spectacular. He has a huge multi building complex. Walking in the room where finished wheels are stored is like entering heaven. Until now , I’ve never heard otherwise. I sent a set of wheels for a 1912 Metz to a place in Pa , and they ruined them beyond belief. You had me wondering until you said they left a spoke out. Then we hear “the rest of the story” from Walter.
I know Mel, the middleman. There are small wheel shops all over his area that Mel could have used, but only one Stutzman wheel shop. Stutzman is a long way from where Mel lives, and dozens of small wheel shops are much closer to him.

Tim

Anyone that calls himself Brass Car Guy and Dick Dock certainly seems to have a problem with anyone knowing who he really is. Makes you question the integrity of that particular person. Enuf said.

I was feeling the same way, David... Why would someone deliberately use a "Bravo Sierra" name to REGISTER for the forum unless they were trying to hide something... I'm surprised that it passed muster when he registered for the account to post here...

Regardless of the wheel issue (and BTW our family had cars done by Stutzman, never an issue, and still on 12 pins per wheel) that's kind of flakey... "Dick Dock"... Man, I'd be embarassed to do something like that. We're family, not a bunch of sneaks...

If you have issues with your wheels, then contact the guy who built them and get them fixed.

That's all I got to say.

I am on virgin run of having wheels rebuilt. I called Noah several times over the two years
I was on the verge of pulling the trigger, but something would come up and I'd backburner the
teardown until the next time I got the urge. Noah was patient and accommodating each time.

In the end, I rounded up a good extra set of wheels from many sets, broke them down, had
the metal powdercoated, and boxed/sent off the parts, per Noah's directives. He informed
me he was working with a 6-8 week turnaround. He also called me, upon receiving the wheels,
to discuss some special details I had asked about. We ironed out all the details, and 4 weeks
later he called to say they were done, but the front hub flanges were not present. I rounded
up a pair and sent them. I expect the wheels to be here any day, ready to paint, which will
allow me to get the Old Dog out a bit before the weather turns. Coms are a big deal in my
business, and I appreciate others that I do business with that also communicate well. So far,
the experience with Stutzman has been excellent. AND he has a funny accent ! Gotta love a
little character !

Burger in Spokane wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:21 am

... AND he has a funny accent ! Gotta love a little character !

Don't know first-hand, but I have understood that most Amish know three languages... the German dialect they speak at home and among themselves (often referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch"), proper high German which they use in church services and liturgy, and English which they use to speak to the rest of us. If he has an accent, he's probably entitled!

Tim, As I understood Steve, he wouldn't use primer under the paint, instead use a one coat process. I was also wanting to get Noah to do a set of wheels for me. I had planned to clean up a set of good hubs and metal fellows, paint and send them to him, It sounded like he would supply the hardware. I have never heard of any problems with quality of any-kind, just raves that make you wonder why you haven't started the process.

John, if that is a question directed at me, I don’t understand it. Now these are just my opinions. How I would do it. As I mentioned, sending powder coated stuff off to him would be ONLY for demountable rim wheels on a T driver. What you get back is a nice wheel ready for stain/varnish. I would not send finish powder coated stuff off to him.
I know some people think Henry only made black wheels. I believe they started offering varnished spokes in May1925. That’s millions of cars that could have had varnish from new.
If I were going to paint a set when done, I would do things differently. At the very least, good primer and paint where the wood is going to attach. I don’t think I’d send finish painted parts off to him, nor complete powder coated stuff unless demountable rim wheels for a driver quality car.. That’s just me. Powder coat is so much more durable than paint, but still leaves lots of chance at damage. Seems like wasted work as you would just need to paint the spokes , why not paint all at once when respoked. At least you would have some corrosion protection between the new wood and metal.
This picture shows how I got a set back that is getting a real nice paint job. There is good epoxy primer under all the wood to metal parts. I’ll do a nice prep job like Walter described above, get some finish primer and paint paint inside the clincher rim, install the tubes, tires, inflate the tires, deflate the tires and then prep for final paint. Mask the tires , paint. Shown is the set of wheels, all ready for that show quality process to start.

IF you send him powder coated parts, as I described above, this is what you will get back.as you can see, the metal isn’t perfect, but is powder coated for a good driver quality wheel, that will last many lifetimes now. Henry’s wheels weren’t meant to last many lifetimes. If you send him rustygreasycruddybare metal parts, that is what you I’ll get back. I guess it’s up to you how nice a job you want. As we know, people can be penny wise and pound foolish. They do baby buggies to 12’ wagon wheels, they really don’t care. ( also penny farthing humongous bicycle rims, finger jointed steering wheels, etc)

I've been to his place a couple of times and in Noah's office is an impressive assortment of stuff. His exact words to me, "If it is round and made of wood, we will make it". For the early bicycle crowd he has even made wooden bicycle rims with an aluminum extrusion hidden inside such that when it is assembled you cannot see it. I'm not a bicycle person but it looked pretty slick to me.

How much is he charging a piece ? Shipping is a problem....$$$.

marctee wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:51 am

How much is he charging a piece ? Shipping is a problem....$$$.

You should call and ask him as it depends on a number of factors. All-in-all, very reasonable.

Im justt rying to get the conversation going here Walter.

So many variables when you talk of wheels. I’ve always considered their work a bargain, but hesitate to throw prices out here. This is what I need to do, and hope this set comes out as nice as Rob Heyen’s wheel shown.

Since the thread is reference to Stutzman wheel shop in Baltic, Ohio , thought I’d share these pics. I’d guess any good wheel shop would be similar, but I don’t know. Need to mention, I’m not a shill for them, don’t intend to speak for them in any way. Just a happy customer after at least a half dozen jobs over 15-20 years, with many friends with the same result. Good craftsman in any field are getting harder and harder to find, and I celebrate the good ones I come across, and just mumble to myself of the clinkers I too often get. PLEASE NOTE the sets of T wheels, in sets as they were sent in to them, in process. They are Amish, so I respected that and had permission to take these pictures while they were having their lunch break. Many use phones and computers, but powered by a generator, or solar panels. For religious reasons, some Amish do not allow their pictures taken , and I respect that. I’m the same way , but it’s because of the FBI most wanted list.

Their relations own and operate huge sawmills in the area, but they have capabilities right on site, also. The area is fascinating, small family owned factories all over the farmland area. Cheese, chocolate, meat, wood wheels, what could be better?

Tim

Did you notice the FBI caught one on their list? You have now moved up a notch!

Thanks for the heads up, Dave. I’m way down on the list but at least I’m on it.

I’ve had several private messages with people amazed at the pictures of the operation. What makes it impressive , to me at least, they are not in the grid. There are no power lines coming in. Many of the tools have hydraulic motors on them. The ones that are electrically operated , are done so by power generated right on site.
I am pretty certain they never sent a finished wheel out missing a spoke !

I am pretty certain they never sent a finished wheel out missing a spoke!

Agreed. That seems pretty far fetched.

I believe the Amish proscription of modern power applies to locomotion, not stationary uses. I've seen Amish farmers driving a team to pull gasoline powered machinery.

Are those the polish Amish ?

Marc, there is a square wheel shop down that way, but when I go by, they don’t ever look very busy. Perhaps that is who actually did brass car guy dickery dock’s wheels and left the spoke out.

Copy that Tim ! I really dont understand whats going on here and wish someone could clarify and really get to the bottom of this..Maybe the guy had a bad experience . i just dont know and probebly will use Stutzman in the future.
I was talking about the team pulling the gas powered machine. thats funny.

If you're in the business of building wooden spoked wheels and have been for decades, what are the odds that you would leave a spoke out of the hub and felloe? I'd say... Not. There is something funny about this whole dick dock nonsense... it's not my concern, except that a company who has come to the rescue of more than a few thousands of vehicle owners is getting smeared...

I don't know the guy and only know that the complaint has been raised multiple times now by the same person, as Walter has pointed out. Reread what dick/brass guy said:

...and the 4th wheel did not have the correct amount of spokes.

Nowhere did it say any were missing. I do have more faith in the vendor's reputation vs an obviously disgruntled customer with some sort of axe to grind, but those harping about "missing spokes" need to get off that soapbox. That complaint was never raised. The complaint was that a wheel, with a different number than "12" was included, which did not match the other 3 in the shipment, all of which in my opinion, find hard to believe. Debating a statement which was never made is kind of pointless.

Every wheel from Stutzman's that I have seen was absolutely beautiful and ran perfectly true. I have also personally bought about 8 wheels worth of spokes from them and am a very satisfied customer. I seriously doubt any of their work was anything but top notch.

Stephen

Debating a statement which was never made is kind of pointless.

But it is the soul of politics. Whole elections are won and lost on it.

I must have missed the answer to spokes to bare metal part. I have heard two thoughts on this. One if you powder coat the fellow the coating will wear and leave the spokes loose, the other if left bare metal they will rust and get loose? Is there a diffinative answer if you want to leave the spokes unpainted? Thanks.

Craig, I would never presume to know the correct answer. Some are happy sending bare metal into a wheel shop for wood install. I wrote what worked for me. I’m happy to get them back with that tough powder coat between the spoke and bare metal. Unless the spokes are loose, that powder coat isn’t going anywhere, and gives great protection, and because of the thickness of powder coat, a tighter wheel.
Scott, you are certainly correct. Dickdock could have gotten one of those rare 13 spoke wheels back, or one of those equally rare 11 or 10 spoke wheels. Perhaps 6 spokes? We should never presume. Perhaps he kept a picture to share as I certainly would have kept one.

I am just curious as to the cost of having a set of 21" wheels respoked?

I *believe* Noah just charged me $225 ? I can confirmed when the wheels arrive
any day now. I believe there will be an invoice with them (?). The total for a 4-
wheel set (this includes the 20" TT rear wheels), including shipping from Baltic, Ohio
to Spokane, Washington was $1200 and change.

I have had a set of wheels respoked with teardrop configuration many years ago and they are still beautiful today. After looking at all the pictures of the shop I would hesitate to think that after so many decades of making wheels and spokes they would make such a foolish mistake as to leave out a spoke or add a spoke to a wheel on one of four wheels. Even from the pictures you can see the jobs are kept together on the shopping carts and to make one wheel different it would require a totally different setup on the machines and the jig. We are talking extra time and money to make such a mistake, impossible. After looking at the amount and number of complicated specialized machinery, if they did not know what they were doing, they wouldn’t have the proper amount of fingers and limbs to do the jobs. The complainer is full of bling bling that he received bad wheels from Noah. Just my opinion based on my experience. Just a happy customer. Frank

Other than DICKDOCK throwing stones without any supporting substantiation this thread has turned into a glowing endorsement of the quality coming from Stutzman. Besides the quality and fair prices one also needs to consider the turnaround, with promises kept.
Keith

Steve, most primers are not a lot of protection from rust. If the primer you use is like that, I’d suggest to use some scrap paint also over the primer, and just where the new wood is going to touch. I keep black lacquer for that purpose. That will not cause any problems with about any final paint topcoat you use. JMHO

This will be my first set of freshly rebuilt wheels. I am all too familiar
with old wheels, particularly LOOSE wheels. The gang at the Antique Auto
Ranch descended upon me pretty quickly to pour over my T when I first got
it, looking for issues that might prove costly or fatal. They offered lots of
directives on what are key points to keep an eye on, and one was wheels.
We tightened mine in place and repeened the bolts. And I was directed to
stay aware of their status and take further steps as needed. They served
me 5+ years, but my heavy hauling finally did in the rears, and it was time
for a total rebuild. I don't think I will ever not regularly check my wheels,
even if they are new. Just too much potential for disaster. A quick walk
around and side tug, listening for odd creaks and clicks, ... too easy. 30
seconds every few drives, and just staying aware will save me from a lot of
crinkled sheetmetal and probably getting hurt myself. Don't need that.

How you paint them or otherwise, it was impressed upon me that checking
one's wheels is one of those T things you just can't ignore.

What is their usual turn around time for a set?

My wheels showed up this week. Someone above had asked what Noah charges.
I double checked the invoice, .... For the front wheels, $175 each. The 20" TT
rears were $275 each.

A big thanks from my side .

As delivered:

A photo of the stained and installed wheels. I will give them more color from time
to time to get them good and black. Hickory is slow to take color and will take many
applications. No peeling paint for me.

Oh good! I expect we can see the TT back to work soon? Looks like a very nice job.

I got the other side done tonight. Since it has sat for almost a year, I will
spend a little time fussing little details and get it fired up. Maybe go for a
good long run this weekend ?

I have lots of firewood to haul in, so yeah, ... we'll be back to work soon
enough !

As far as turnaround it’s best to call. Work level changes. I believe it normally runs 6 to 8 weeks, not counting shipping.
Keith