MTFCA Forum

After 50 some years I think I have some knowledge of the Model T. I know some who have learned everything there is to know. However there are always surprises along the way. In this case, the steering on the Coupe has gotten harder. I thought it might be just old age. After jacking both sides of the front axle and putting penetrating oil in the oil cups I expected to find some relief in the effort to steer. Not so! I thought removing the king pins and cleaning and oiling them might be the solution. After removing the nut I found the king pin would not turn. Even with brute force it was locked to the bushings. It had been turning in the upper part of the axle and the threads. With the lower nut tight it was causing resistance.
I had chosen to use a 1/2" drill bit to ream the bushings. Some reamers I have seemed to give way more clearance than needed (I thought). It seemed way too sloppy. Now I see the wisdom in the extra clearance. This car lives outdoors. My indoor cars have not sufferer this problem yet.
I have old axles with the threads for the king pins stripped and the upper hole enlarged. I can see how this could happen now. I backed the lower nut off and will hope the penetrating oil will loosen the king pins in time.
The fact that we don't know everything still keeps me humble.
Rich

Rich:
humble is good ...NOT BRAGGING BUT , i can write an encyclopedia on what i don't know ! always an optimist ...Gene French

I should add that the steering worked fine for 8 years. Oiling more frequently might have averted this problem.
Gene, writing about what we don't know would undoubtedly require some research wouldn't it?

I find the Problem is that king pins are all different sizes depending on what you bought. Economy bolts are .495. The ground ones are .500. A .500 reamer wont give the necessary clearence on a .500 bolt. One must choose the appropriate reamer for the king pin one is using.

I have found that the problem is, when I go to the very edge of my knowledge,
peering off to the horizon with even the strongest binoculars, knowing everything
is still far beyond me ever seeing it.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:44 pm

I find the Problem is that king pins are all different sizes depending on what you bought. Economy bolts are .495. The ground ones are .500. A .500 reamer wont give the necessary clearence on a .500 bolt. One must choose the appropriate reamer for the king pin one is using.

And THAT my friend, is exactly why I always preach taking the spindles with the new bushings already PRESSED in, and of course the bolt, to a good machine shop. I tell my machine shop expert I don't want "any play". He always produces a spindle with a nice firm fit, yet easy to turn the wheel. You don't always get that with reaming.

Whoops...my typing is faster than my lame brain...I neglected to also say "by honing", at my machine shop! It's too early to think!

Part of my surprise was that this happened many years later. I would have thought wear would have made everything looser. Perhaps moisture has gotten in their and rust is part of the culprit.
Rich

Good thread(s) pun intended.

Just when I thought I knew everything, I realized I've forgotten more than I know.......

I guess you'll find out when you tear it down ? Please keep us posted. I'm mighty curious now !!

Gene_French wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:02 pm

Rich:
humble is good ...NOT BRAGGING BUT , i can write an encyclopedia on what i don't know ! always an optimist ...Gene French

How can you say what you don't know if you don't know it?!

Cause' if you knew what ya didn't no yould not not know anything.

Jonah

many men have wives who will keep a list to remind them...

The more you learn the more you know
The more you know the more you forget
The more you forget the less you know.
On the other hand
The less learn the less you know
The less you know the less you forget
The less you forget the more you know.
This is just one of the rules that guides me.

FWIW. On my "touring" cars, i put a 1/4" zerk in the outer centering hole of spindles to lube king pins. First, recountersink spindle to 5/16" od to maintain countersink location (just in case). Drill & tap for 1/4" zerk thread. Grease fills all the voids & would keep out moisture.

John, great idea!

Rich, what were we talking about?

For a time the spindle bolts came with a threaded end and a zerk. I have some spindle bolts drilled for grease fittings half way down the body. This suggests the problem occurred back in the day. Mine have the flip top oiler that was prevalent in the 20s. After coaxing many spindle bolts out of axles I had thought the problem was rust. This experience tells me different.

Original reamers may give too much clearance for modern king pins as most modern king pins are made undersize. The Ford drawing calls out the king pin thickness somewhat greater than a half inch, and most vendor king pins are made a half inch and in some cases less than half inch. Not a problem for the bushings as they can be reamed to any size, but the axles are machined for a larger king pin thickness.
In my king pin drawing research I never ran across a Ford king pin made to take a zerk grease fitting.

Jonah D'Avella wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:55 am

Gene_French wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:02 pm

Rich:
humble is good ...NOT BRAGGING BUT , i can write an encyclopedia on what i don't know ! always an optimist ...Gene French

How can you say what you don't know if you don't know it?!

The circle of knowledge. Pie shape size varies by individual.

There is a reason that guys on the forum can tell you things, it is called experience! hahahahaha

I taught him everything I know and he still doesn't know anything.

Rich Eagle wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:59 pm

For a time the spindle bolts came with a threaded end and a zerk. I have some spindle bolts drilled for grease fittings half way down the body. This suggests the problem occurred back in the day. Mine have the flip top oiler that was prevalent in the 20s. After coaxing many spindle bolts out of axles I had thought the problem was rust. This experience tells me different.

Not sure what "time" you are referring to (production or repro's)- but early spindle bolts where threaded for brass oilers. https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4474
by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:56 pm
They are in fact different
'09-'14 screw-in oiler spindle bolts are offered by suppliers for '09-'17. Note: early spindle bolts were a couple thousandths larger than later ones and if you purchase one of the repros that is CORRECTLY made, you will need a slightly larger reamer than the line-reamer the suppliers offer. Mine is .504"
'15-17 man-hole oiler spindle bolts are not available
'18-'27 spindle bolts come with flip top oilers
Zerks/Alemites will fit in those too In looking for info on the Spindle Bolts also found pictures of different designs http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1451597403
By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 01:08 pm:
Comparison of original Ford (left) and modern avail. repro king pins (spindle bolts). The picture I inserted with the threads was removed from a front axle that was laying in a field a few years ago- (how long was it theer? 50 year old repro?). It has no groove around the oil outlet but one near the top.

How quick we forget. I have purchased several of the ones you show with the brass twist oilers. My mind went back to what I bought back in the '60s. I still have grease cups in them. They may have been from J. C. Whitney. It seemed the bushings wore quickly in them.
By the way, the spindle bolts now turn about an eighth of a turn after adding the penetrating oil. I'm not sure how long it will take to soak to the bottom bushing. It sure steers easily with the bolts turning in the axle and up on stands.
Thanks for the input.
Rich

Rich Eagle wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:26 pm

How quick we forget. I have purchased several of the ones you show with the brass twist oilers. My mind went back to what I bought back in the '60s. I still have grease cups in them. They may have been from J. C. Whitney. It seemed the bushings wore quickly in them.
By the way, the spindle bolts now turn about an eighth of a turn after adding the penetrating oil. I'm not sure how long it will take to soak to the bottom bushing. It sure steers easily with the bolts turning in the axle and up on stands.
Thanks for the input.
Rich

Don't turn the top to loosen it a bit until the bottom nut is partially removed. In case you forgot the end of the bolt is threaded to the bottom part of the axle.

Yes, you can see from the top picture the nut is completely off.
Thanks
Rich

As I recall, the early spindle bolts are .503"

I have been patient and working on some other frustrating projects while the oil does it's job. However I notice a few minutes ago that the lower bushing is turning with the spindle bolt. The alternative may be to cut the bolts at the bushing flange to save the axle and the spindles. Patience lost for today.
Rich

Heat to about 250 F and baste with ATF. Let cool, repeat.

What color is the steel at 250 F?
I found two of those cutesy little oil cans that we just have to pick up and the swap meet and put lacquer thinner in one and ATF in the other. I have been filling the oilers each day as they will take it. Today I can turn one spindle bolt a full turn and the other about a half turn. This gives me hope that eventually oil will get to the bottom bushing. Maybe I can lock it in place with the vice grips. They say that Patience is a virtue but distraction is working better for me.
Rich

Today with the help of vice grips (one side) locking the lower bushing I was able to turn and remove both spindle bolts. Soaking for 12 days did the trick. Good threads at the bottom let the bolts move up as they were turned. I see that the bolts were old originals when I installed them 8 years ago. One is Ford script. They measure .499 and .498 half way down and .497 to .491 where the bushings ride. Pretty good for used bolts. They are shown here before and after cleaning. There was a dark brown tar on them. I suspect old oil and rust from water soaking in and condensing inside the spindle body. More frequent oiling should have eliminated this problem. Being kept outdoors also contributed. The spindle bodies didn't want to come out of the axle. The bushing flanges were tight. I scrubbed them with solvent in place. They didn't seem to wear much during regular in town driving.
They have plenty of oil now and I will try to remember to oil them more frequently.
Like many tasks, this was another learning experience.
Thanks for the interest.
Rich

Thank you for sharing your experience.
Your posts are always enjoyable.

Rich, how often do you oil them? I think the book sez something like every week or two hundred miles. I basically have been doing that using oil can oil and hoping for the best. Are you doing it less often?

Yes, I am very neglectful. The indoor cars get oiled a couple times a year with transmission oil. I've never had a problem with them but they probably wear more. This is a wake up call to me and perhaps others.
I don't think you can oil them too often. It does make a bit of a mess on the paint and the floor but easily cleaned.
Maintenance is a wonderful thing.
Thanks
Rich

With the freed up spindles and lots of oil I now have a slight shimmy at low speed. No good deed goes unpunished. It is easily controlled by keeping pressure to one side or the other. I have heard all the causes and have corrected many shimmies before but can live with this one for now. Perhaps the wear and the extraction enlarge the bushings a bit.
Add the lack of oil to your shimmy cure list
Rich

Check your toe in for giggles.