MTFCA Forum

I'm pretty sure pin 3342 is the reason my 1919 tourer won't shift into high gear. Can someone please take a look at the picture and tell me if there's an easy way to fix that without tearing the engine apart?

Pix not clear enough to me. Looks like the pin has come part way out the hole. That pin goes into the cup, the cup gets rotated about 1/4 turn & the pin drops into some notches to lock it. You should not see the pin. If the pin is lined up with the hole, you should be able to knock it back down & rotate the cup to properly lock it. Very doable.Rotate the output shaft 180 & look at pin hole. make sure driving it back in would stop @ the spring & not possibly fall thru.

On our Canadian sourced cars, the hole in the cup and the grooves in the base are in line, so rotating the cup does nothing to help. On second thoughts, that must be the way they all are. Otherwise, driving the pin out when disassembling the driven plate would mean the spring/cup would have to be rotated some to be able to access the pin, not something I have ever had to do.

Allan from down under.

The common american unit is as i described. Press down & turn to remove or lock pin. There are a few early variations, l believe pre 17ish. that differ. Even the early versions, when in place, the pin cant come out the insertion hole.

Checked several in the shop, a mix, some are a rotate of about an inch to lock and some as Allan describes. The photo looks to be correct in being able to see half the circle of the end of the pin.

...........

Scotts pix is a bit earlier style than i normally see, but same principle. Compress spring, rotate to lock tabs, uncompress spring. It is locked. Cant see the pin thru the hole.

And this would be the type of cup Jason's T has.

At first glance the pin has moved out just a little and sitting on one of the spring coils. You might can take a taper punch and tap it enough to get it back in center. I’d try that first before anything else.
The spring has to move freely in and out so the transmission will function properly.
Don’t know how that happened but I do have a few of the spring cups that have the holes wallowed out more than others. I wondered why some were more than others. I do try to use the best used parts such as the cup that doesn’t have oval shaped or worn holes when I rebuild a transmission. That’s another part that’s not being reproduced and that’s why I have a bucket or two of good used transmission parts.

Okay, so the consensus seems to be for me to try to tap it back in, if I'm understanding correctly.

I'm sorry for the ignorance, but after I tap it in, do I rotate something or not? It's a 1920 engine if that matters. I'm not much of a mechanic.

Yes you rotate the cup. The one thing I did not suggest on the Facebook post, turn 180 degrees and see what the other side looks like. If it too is sticking thru, tapping it in will not help. At this point, the end looks larger then the hole it has to pass thru.

It might help to determine the type of cup yours has. The one in Scotts pix turns 90 degrees. the later style is around 45 degrees. Look @ the bottom of the cup with a mirror. If there are 2 slots from the bent tabs - 90 degree. Ihave seen an earlier version that uses a large solid collar with no lock. But either way, the pin has to be inside the cup & clear the spring.

This is why I like to preface any comments with "I believe..." Stating something as an absolute fact on model T's is sure to come back to bite you. I'd only just finished assembling a transmission with the cup reliefs in line with the pin. Now I need to do as Frank did, check my bits and pieces.
Sorry if I gave anyone a bum steer.

Allan from down under.

How's this looking?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Mb2aHoWBZT7hboC9

It doesn't appear that's a lose pin, I think its a defect in the metal with light glinting off of it.

Hello Jason,

OK, to solve your problem you need to understand how the clutch works and understand you may not be able to see the broken component(s).
If you want my guidance here goes:

The spring retaining cup and pin supports one end of the clutch spring.
The other end of the clutch spring presses against the clutch release collar.
The clutch release collar presses against the three fingers on the driven plate.
The three fingers on the driven plate press against a push ring inside the brake drum.
The push ring presses against the clutches compressing the (25 clutch discs in a stock clutch) together.
The power is transferred to the clutches by the clutch drum inside the brake drum and attached to the transmission main shaft.

If you want me to continue:

What baffles me in your video (which was very helpful) is the sound of the clutch collar or something else sounding like it was hitting something solid.

Now some of the things that can cause your failure based on my past experience and observations:

Clutch finger screws out of adjustment (unlikely in this case) give all three a half turn in and see what happens.

You have turbo 400 clutches and the linings are worn out.

The holes for the clutch finger screws are worn out and the clutch fingers no longer contact the push ring.

Key between main shaft and clutch drum failed and clutch drum spinning on main shaft.

I will restate the sound of the clutch collar hitting something solid still baffles me.

I hope this helps.

Terry

Try this with the rear end jacked up and wheels chocked;
Take the link off between the clutch arm and low pedal. With the parking brake lever forward, adjust the distance between the clutch collar and back plate to 13/16 for starting base.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1405692926
With the link still off, pull back on the parking brake handle. Do the pins sticking thru the back plate move out when you do that? When you release the parking brake, do the pins now move in?
Pull back on the parking brake to set the parking brakes and into neutral, are all three fingers loose? If so, put the inspection cover back on and start the car, it will be in neutral.
Try the low, reverse and brakes for function. With your foot off the low pedal, RPM just above idle, release the parking brake. If everything inside the transmission is working it should shift into high.
If all seems good set the link ;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1275682565
This may require a couple of adjustments more if the clutch slips when in high, but can cross that bridge late.
If none of the above works, then besides a collapsed spring, it may be as suggested above, internal in the transmission and will require it to come apart. Most cases of issues with high gear are it will not come out of high.

My guess. You have turbo 400 clutch discs and they're toast... I see zero movement of your clutch fingers when you shift to high. True, they don't necessarily move a lot anyway, but you can usually see some action out of them as the clutch disc stack compresses and relaxes. Try adjusting the 3 clutch fingers by turning the adjuster screws 1 turn. If that helps, that's great, but if you have Turbo 400 discs, it will be a very temporary fix.

I see an unusual amount of gap between the fingers with low pedal. Check the linkage to book specs. T1 service manual! doest appear to be any spring tension on those fingers in high. That clunk may be the pedal cam stop. The pin is not an issue. The spring is moving as it should.