MTFCA Forum

Hello all,
I am in the middle of installing the Sure Stop brakes on my 26 Touring with wire wheels. When I pulled the left hub I found what seems to be shim material jammed between hub and axle taper. Hub appears to be welded on. Also looks like the incorrect non-tapered key. The brakes appear to be a more modern bonded as well. Can you guys/gals tell me what I have? I'm thinking I should buy a new hub at this point. I'm new to T's but a long time shade tree mechanic. I have stock hubs, right? Not floating?

Thanks,
Mike

Yes hub and axle could be worn. New axles alone may solve your issue as they are a bit longer than the original to compensate for worn parts. You do not have safety or floating hubs. Close up pictures of the axle and emergency brake linings would help as if worn this would be a good time to re-line the brake bands.

Brake lining looks good, I think. I'm concerned with the welding on the hub....is that normal? I believe that since someone used a non tapered key, it rode up in the slot and caused the hub to wobble so in went the shims. Thoughts?

Here's the other side. Hope it's not too tight...how am I going to get my puller on it?

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:35 pm

Brake lining looks good, I think. I'm concerned with the welding on the hub....is that normal? I believe that since someone used a non tapered key, it rode up in the slot and caused the hub to wobble so in went the shims. Thoughts?

Here's the other side. Hope it's not too tight...how am I going to get my puller on it?

This one's a problem. Its a wood wheel hub adapted. If the threads are in tact, use a wood wheel puller. You may need to get her back drivable & run with the nut backed off a thread to loosen it. The end can be machined more like the other side for future pulls. I would get a correct WW hub.

I dont see welding. There is something in the hub hole that couldnt have been there as assembled.?? The outer seal looks like an aftermarket aluminum body. They are thicker. Maybe why they added shims. Remove it & put the wheel on with out the key. Check for fit relationship to backing plate & rubbing internals.

OK, the end of the other hub has threads......may need to buy a wood wheel hub puller? Strongly leaning to buy two new hubs. Anyone have a couple in good shape laying around?

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:35 pm

Brake lining looks good, I think. I'm concerned with the welding on the hub....is that normal? I believe that since someone used a non tapered key, it rode up in the slot and caused the hub to wobble so in went the shims. Thoughts?

Here's the other side. Hope it's not too tight...how am I going to get my puller on it?

If you are referring to the outer hub adjacent to the stud flange, that looks like normal forging marks, not welding.
The key looks like a later V8? short version. Shouldn't be an issue. It does need to fit snuggly into the keyway.

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:02 pm

OK, the end of the other hub has threads......may need to buy a wood wheel hub puller? Strongly leaning to buy two new hubs. Anyone have a couple in good shape laying around?

Not so sure the other hub has a problem.

Hey John,
I looked at pics of other 26 27 wire wheel hubs and they are smooth as I would expect..... just like the adapted wire wheel hub. You sure this hub isn't welded up?

Look again.

It isn't just like the other one...the other one has a 5 hole later drum grafted onto a 6 hole wood wheel hub...which still retains its hubcap threads.

The one you think is welded up may very well be, I'm not going to argue based on a photo on the internet, but John's conclusion is likely, like mine is, that this wheel is a 6 hole wire wheel hub which has the correct "puller" boss, assembled to a 6 hole improved car drum. Maybe it IS welded together, but the parts are not an illicit marriage, they are OEM.

Somewhere in the old forums there are discussion about wood hubs made into wire wheel hubs DO NOT support wire wheels correctly. You need to look for at least one hub. Dan.

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:44 pm

Hey John,
I looked at pics of other 26 27 wire wheel hubs and they are smooth as I would expect..... just like the adapted wire wheel hub. You sure this hub isn't welded up?

Clean the area with a wire wheel on a die grinder or bead blaster if you have one. If its welded, it will be obvious.
Doesnt look welded from here. Some hubs are rougher than others in my experience.

So the second picture of the rough but correct hub is what you've seen before and is normal? Not welded? If I get a new key and try fitting it without a key first to ensure it's not wallowed out, you'd use it?

Need to replace the wood wheel conversion hub.

Everyone agree?

Dan Hatch wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:32 pm

Somewhere in the old forums there are discussion about wood hubs made into wire wheel hubs DO NOT support wire wheels correctly. You need to look for at least one hub. Dan.

You are correct Dan.

you would be looking for this: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1202520615

The way that shim has been chewed up indicates that the wheel has been 'working' on the axle. That 'working' will have accelerated the wear between the axle and hub. I would be carefully inspecting both before considering either for re-use.

Allan from down under.

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:42 pm

So the second picture of the rough but correct hub is what you've seen before and is normal? Not welded? If I get a new key and try fitting it without a key first to ensure it's not wallowed out, you'd use it?

Need to replace the wood wheel conversion hub.

Everyone agree?

Yes. Thats what I see from the pix. Confirm yourself by cleaning/stripping.
Checking it without the key is looking for wear in the tapers.(hub & axle) & clearance issues from that wear. As I mentioned before, that outer grease seal may be out too far. Thats where you may see rubbing evidence. Note the relationship between the drum & backing plate. How much does the drum overhang the plate. A pix would help for this end. The steel cup & felt washer type is preferred. IMO.

I recall the drum was flush with the backing plate on the wire wheel one and the converted wood wheel one has more overhang.

Since I'm doing the disk brake conversion, I must be certain of the hubs I press on the new drums/discs, hence my push to just purchase two new hubs....but it's an expensive proposition. In for a penny, in for a pound. The wood wheel hub will not be reused so the other hub is the one in question. The axle looks OK but will do some more checks. Maybe someone has a set of hubs for a good price. Hubs are $300 each at Lang's.

I really think the lack of taper in the key caused the hub to ride out and wobble on the outer end of the axle prompting someone to shim the hub. A proper key may be all that will be needed....don't know yet.

Thanks for all the help.....

Took off the wood wheel hub. Nut was finger tight and hub, key, drum all slipped off with little effort. No hub puller needed.

Both axles look OK to me. I will need new seals. Wood wheel side was a greasy mess. What do you recommend for seals?

Wire wheel hub is fairly scored. Don't think I should reuse it.

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:28 pm

Took off the wood wheel hub. Nut was finger tight and hub, key, drum all slipped off with little effort. No hub puller needed.

Both axles look OK to me. I will need new seals. Wood wheel side was a greasy mess. What do you recommend for seals?

Wire wheel hub is fairly scored. Don't think I should reuse it.

The wood wheel side was a greasy mess because the hub and/or axle is terribly worn, allowing the hub to go on too far, such that it wore away the face of your axle seal cap. Notice also, that someone cut back the small end of the taper so the axle nut would go on farther and also added a washer. Not good. I'm assuming this was the side with the worn out shim? Contrary to popular opinion, a shim is NOT a fix for a worn hub or axle shaft, or both. When the taper wears, (on the axle or in the hub), it does not do so consistantly or evenly. Therefore, the contact area between axle & hub is greatly reduced, causing only points of contact. Read that as "pressure points". When the shim is introduced, it appears to have a positive effect. But, it is only being pinched between those pressure points. Many miles down the road, those pressure points will wear thin spots in the shim. The thinning of the shim will result in a loose hub. The looser it gets, the more the shim wears. That's why you found only fragments of the shim remaining. Many times, those fragments migrate up the taper and cut into the axle seal. If the axle and/or hub are worn the the point where a shim would be needed, then they're too worn to use. You need real wire wheel hubs, (either new or excellent used), and new or excellent used axles. (Maybe the other axle is okay...)

I apologize, I should have labeled the axles.

First pic with shiny seal cap is the wood wheel side....messy leak, no shim. Second with darker cap is the wire wheel hub...no leak, hub was shimmed.

The shinny cup seal has a felt donut. It must be fully installed. This one isnt in far enough. It takes a lot of force to get those seal cups on &compress the felt. I use a 3# sledge & a trans brake drum shaft. The other side may not be on all the way. Not sure. But, the hub has been cutting into it. For seals I like the felt & steel cap as you have. Inner seal, I like a neoprene seal.(if seal surface is good). When you get the outer seal cups off.
(you just opened Pandora's box)
You can assess the axle, sleeves & bearing wear. The likely result will be a complete axle overhaul. (Karnak says!)

Yikes, I hope not! What am I looking for?

I just ordered a bearing splitter puller kit I've wanted for a while as these cups are not coming off willingly. A little overkill but I can use the kit on other projects.

I read an old post where Chaffin recommended the less expensive felt seals. Think I'll order the inexpensive cap and seal kit. Kinda wondering where the washer goes...under the cap or over?

With the disk brake kit and now needing to order a couple of hubs, seals and keys...this project is getting pricey. I have 9 cars I have to keep going...ugh! Most are toys! Won't even mention other non-automotive hobbies.

Mikey1968 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:30 pm

Yikes, I hope not! What am I looking for?

I just ordered a bearing splitter puller kit I've wanted for a while as these cups are not coming off willingly. A little overkill but I can use the kit on other projects.

I read an old post where Chaffin recommended the less expensive felt seals. Think I'll order the inexpensive cap and seal kit. Kinda wondering where the washer goes...under the cap or over?

With the disk brake kit and now needing to order a couple of hubs, seals and keys...this project is getting pricey. I have 9 cars I have to keep going...ugh! Most are toys! Won't even mention other non-automotive hobbies.

You are looking for a ridge of wear or splintering on the upper edge of the sleeve. Axles: step of wear & pitting. Will be obvious. Bearings: cages must be tight. Rollers measure .500 if perfect, .003 wear is still usable if no splintering.
Seal caps removed with 2 long pry bars on opposite sides. Fulcrum spacer under each.
Washer sets against bearing. Felt in between. Need a seal behind the sleeves(neoprene) Better get a sleeve remover tool.(Remember Pandora?)
If you dont have the T1 manual, get it. It will help you in your D/S & axle rebuild & any other work needed on your T. Yes, the drive shaft is all part of the job.

I agree Speedyt. My concern goes beyond the tip of the axle at the hub. If this was my car, I would disassemble the entire rear triangle and rebuild it to proper specs. This should include straightening the axle housings. Be safe.