MTFCA Forum

Does anyone have the Ford blueprint for the 1913-14 dash board ?
I tried to contact the Benson Ford archives, but it appears they closed down during the Covid pandemic, and remain "temporarily closed".

There were several posts on reproducing this part back in 2010, but I have been unsuccessful in attempts to contact those who posted back then.

My interest is to make a dashboard the way they were originally made, vertical hardwood laminated core with cross-plies of cherry. Using veneer is out, as available veneers are paper-thin, and the plies need to be approximately 5/64". I'm hoping cutting the plies is the hardest part of the project. It's slow going, so far I have enough cut for one side, and a LOT of sawdust !

Here is a diagram, but see link for discussion of errors in drawing and correct dimension corrections


https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1288113136

I am intrigued by your project. Keep us posted. You probably have seen these but here they are. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1401470673
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/369280.html
Rich

I received a set of drawings from Bensons in July this year for my 1915 they were open then. I am engaging in the same project trying to duplicate the original. The drawings refer to the dash as three ply, core with a veneer skin on both sides. They give you the overall thickness of the dash .688 but they don't give the core thickness and the veneer skin thickness detail. At the local veneer store the Cherry veneer is .020. Therefore, my core will have to be .648 +.020 + .020 = .688. I think the original veneer was about 1/16 but it isn't available. I don't anticipate any issues with the .020 veneer when it is glued in place and fitted into the steel frame. 5/8" plywood is slightly thinner and will fit into the frame space comfortably, but not as original. 3/4 plywood will require a rabbit on the outer edge to make it fit. There was a multitude of revisions for the wood dash drawings. The 1915 dash drawings I have there is about 20 revisions, some had 7/8" holes and some had 1", some had electric head lights and there was a hole drilled for the switch, some early models still had gas lites, some had a bulb horn and some had an electric horn, some had a heat shield and some didn't. These are just some of the variables.

Rich, is that your bandsaw in the photo? Do you have a thickness planer?

I have made thick veneer by resawing as shown in your photo. It takes a coarse blade to keep the cut straight but I still got a little transverse curvature. You cannot safely thickness-plane thin wood. I cut my strips about 6" longer than needed. I attached them to 1/2" plywood using double sided carpet tape at the ends. The planed veneer was thinner at ends due to snipe and the thickness of the tape. The planer's rollers kept good pressure to make the rest of the veneer's thickness consistent. I think this is the only way to thickness-plane thin material. I don't have a thickness sander, which may not require a thick substrate.

I would also resaw without using a flat fence like your photo. I place a shallow bump on my fence with its apex aligned with the blade's teeth. That lets me make small angular adjustments to guide the board through the blade. Without it, I would need to be very precise with my blade and fence alignment.

More photos, please.

This is one I have & would assume they were made the same way.

John Regan use to make correct early firewalls. He had veneer he used. He may still have some or can send you to right place. You should try contact him after Hershey. Dan

FWIW, Jon Anderson makes firewalls to the Ford specs. Give him a call.

So far so good, making sawdust and shavings out of pretty cherry planks.
Yes, that's my bandsaw, I'm sure there are many approaches that would yield favorable results. So far, I'm pleased with the plies I'm cutting from 6" planks. The particle board fence and careful setup of the saw make it fairly easy. I was careful to prepare the boards for cutting making sure they're planed accurately and squared up. I'm using a fine-tooth blade which makes for slow going, but the resulting cut is quite smooth. It takes about ten minutes to saw through a three foot length.

I have a surface planer, which is performing well to take the plies down to approximately 0.80" taking very fine cuts.

Thanks all for the links to previous discussions. The information is invaluable ! And 'puter searches are not my forte. It's especially valuable to note problems with available patterns, both for accuracy's sake and to avoid copyright infringements. Who knew ?

Interesting to note the differences between specific production years. I will certainly want to be sure of pattern accuracy before cutting the panel blank. Right now, I believe what I've found to be correct dimensions for the panel makeup - the core is laminated in vertical strips 5/8" thick, with cherry cross plies front and back of 1/16" thickness, yielding a completed panel 3/4" thick.

I believe the sum 1/4" of cross plies is very important for a solid laminated core. Prepared veneers are too thin to accomplish this, I fear, hence the pile of sawdust in my shop !

Bandsaw setup

So far so good

Please use this stain color choice after all the work you are putting in to make it correct.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categori ... MF-STAIN-C

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 69280.html

Attention to details and the right tools shows that you are on the right track to success, Rich. Keep us posted of your progress.

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:56 pm

Please use this stain color choice after all the work you are putting in to make it correct.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categori ... MF-STAIN-C

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 69280.html

Yep! That's the closest to original "we" can find!

I am pleased to see the progress as well as the information on stain. It reminds me of the recipe for REO Firewall Stain included in the HCCA Restoration Tips Book printed many years ago. I thought you might enjoy reading it.

What a great article ! Rich, any idea when that appeared in the Gazette ? The humor is wonderful, and the suggestion a very good one that I intend to use, although it's going to be a long journey getting to the point of staining the dash ! Hope I make it.

Still looking for a source for a correct pattern ! Help ?!?

I used that recipe on a couple of pieces, and it worked out nicely.
Restoration "Hints" was a regular feature in the HCCA Gazette. This book was a compilation of those from 1937 to 1992 when it was printed. Many of the hints were by Dave Rice whose wry sense of humour was most delightful. I believe if he were alive today, he would be enjoying if not participating in the KD thread. Although the REO stain was someone else's.
The 291 pages of pre 15 info is a gold mine but I haven't had it off the shelf in years. It would be hard to find one today.

I don't know if this 1911 dash would help any, but I found it on the www.thehenryford.org site.

Thanks for that, Rich. As I delve into specifics of the early dashboards, it becomes apparent there were changes almost yearly. The 1911 drawing is useful in that it specifies the panel thickness as 3/4", and appears to present the core lamination joints as overlying rebates. Photos of later original dashes appear to have a shallow tongue-in-groove joint.

More research is indicated. I'm terrible at internet searches, and would welcome any assistance or suggestions.

Be careful! That print is for a 1914, not a 1913. Another thought. Many people run the grain vertically not horizontally as it should be. Those are only two things to keep in mind.

Thanks for the reminder, Larry. Good points.

Meantime, I have cut wood for the core laminations. Next step is to mill a shallow tongue-in-groove profile on the pieces before gluing up the core.

Rather than being an economy measure, I believe the number of laminates shown in the old factory photos was less to use "scraps" than to high grade pieces, choosing to arrange them for grain direction which would minimize a panel's tendency to warp. I chose to do the same.

Here is my barnfresh 1914 dash for reference to boards underneath. It is original though the original cherry veneer has peeled off due to time. As you can see, the boards are different widths, not the same all the way across.

Thanks for the photo, Ed. Looks like I'm on the right track.

If it's possible at all to see the laminate joints on the underside of the doghouse, perhaps with a mirror, I'd be much obliged to know if an interlocking profile of some kind was used.

So far, I have seen two photos that show a tongue-in-groove joint, but they were 1915 or later dashes. The 1911 drawing Rich E. Posted shows lap joints.

Here is a not so good picture of the NOS 13/14 Firewall hanging in my shop. Got it out of a Ford dealer in North Tenn that closed in 1928. I could get some more if you want, but will take a few days. Dan

Dan, at your convenience, I would be much obliged for a good photo or two, especially showing the edge and the core laminated joints.

If you are inclined to humor me 'way past what I deserve, would you consider taking an accurate trace of it for a pattern I could use ? I know it's asking a lot. It's great that you have this item for an accurate reference. I'm finding that reproductions have been all over the map for decades !

Thank you much for your input !!

It is too fragile for getting measurements.
If you get ahold of John Regan he may be able to tell you the drawings number you need and you can get one from The Henry Ford. They have all of the drawings, but you need the right number. You should reach out to him. He made my new firewall for my 13 Roadster. He wanted to know which month it was made in so he could make it right.
Reach out to him, he has a lot of knowledge. Dan

PS: Not sure if you know, but they are made to fit right hand drive as well as left hand. Just flip them around.

Here is proof of finger joint off my original 1914.

Dan, thank you for your suggestions. Much appreciated.
Ed, thank you as well !! Taking that photo was above and beyond the call of duty ! Very helpful, and very instructive.

Ed and Frank's photos showing original joints show that the joints were made in a variety of ways. While Frank's shows a tongue and groove joint, it is a joint with a difference. Note the angle on groove side of the joint. I have no idea what this complication would do for the performance of the finished product. I doubt it is worth Rich considering an exact duplication of it. It would mean the successive boards across the firewall would have to be alternated to match the angles on the grooves. Why might such a complication be engineered?

Allan from down under

Allan, another photo also appeared to suggest angular cuts similar to dovetail joints. Without being able to examine the panels in person it's difficult to say if that's actually the case. I can't imagine it would be possible to fit up a glue panel with dovetailing members. Past a certain point it's rather a fool's errand to attempt to be 100% authentic. It begs the question as to who supplied Ford with the wooden dashes ? Likely there were a number of suppliers, each with their own methods of fabrication. I'm probably safe to use my own judgment, poor as it is.

Still, I find the research interesting, and I'm grateful for the helpful responses.
Meantime I'm finding it very difficult to find contact information for John Regan. If anyone is in contact with him, it would be good to know how one might communicate with him, if doing so would not be an unwelcome intrusion.

It's always fun to watch someone else's project. This one is particularly interesting. I chuckle at "100% authentic". The closer we get to perfect the more apparent it becomes how far we are from it. It is commendable that you are making the attempt to make the dash the way it was done originally. Doing the best we can with the tools, materials and information available is a great thing and the final product will be far greater than what is offered commercially. That makes it well worth the effort. I'm glad you are taking time to share it on the forum so we can all delight in the undertaking.
Keep up the good work.
Rich

Thanks for the encouragement Rich. It's becoming more obvious there were several joinery methods in use at the time. The latest two being the "finger jointed" panel Ed posted, and a three-ply core, photo sent to me by a new friend I made in this odyssey who is restoring a 1914 touring, very different from the solid core items we have seen so far.

My reason for "obsessing" over the original materials and methods is that the plywood reproduction dash in my Lizzie proved less than ideal, as the core plies were of a soft wood which became "mushy" with the stresses of leverage from the steering column; possibly there are voids in the interior plies, exacerbating the problem. I suppose I shouldn't quibble, as it's still giving adequate service with the aid of a sheet-brass patch. After all, it's survived over 20 years and a reported twenty thousand miles of touring under two previous owners. A dash I build would be fortunate to do as well !

Here's the photo sent to me of the 1914 dash. It certainly looks as if it may be original to the car.

And the interior side. Comments most welcome vis a vis original or older reproduction.

I don't know if these have any information you don't already have but they might be fun to read while the glue is drying.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1524159192
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/803315.html
I don't see them posted.
Rich
This one has several comments by John F. Regan on what is incorrect with drawing that Ed posted.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1288184242
Sorry if these had been posted before. I lost track.
Rich

Thanks for those links, Rich ! Great information.
(Now I'm starting to get scared !! )

Plugging along, I settled on a tongue-in-groove profile for joining the core laminations. Dry trial fit up looks reasonably good. Glue next !

Rich,
Looks like you have the tools and the know-how. As you probably know dry fit-up and wet fit-up do not always go the same. It may be the added variable of the glue hydraulics impacting the fit during clamping. I often have some degree of buckling occur gluing up large panels, so I glue up smaller sections of 3 or 4 boards at a time, run them though the thickness planner, then glue the sections together to make the final large panel. That method may still result in some buckling but is easier to control by clamping some thick guide timbers to sandwich the face of the panel. Good luck, it is nice to see someone actually copying the Ford methods and materials.

Jeff, thanks much for the tips, much appreciated !

Rich, I like to clamp boards top and bottom like Jeff described to keep the panel flat. I lay wax paper between the top and bottom boards and the workpiece. It makes glue cleanup easier and your top and bottom boards don't stick to the workpiece.

Thanks Mark ! Another excellent suggestion !

Update: The core laminations glued up nicely, and the panel is finish sanded ready for the cherry cross-plies. After discussion with competent wood-workers, the consensus is that the best way to complete the fabrication is to use a vacuum-clamping system, which is essentially a plastic bag plumbed into a vacuum pump. Atmospheric pressure does the clamping at around 14 pounds per square inch. Apparently a garbage bag and the shop vacuum won't cut it, so equipment is on order.

Thanks to Mr. Jon Anderson who was kind enough to return my phone call, and provide helpful answers. A little embarrassing, as he offered me a completed dash for a '13 which he has for sale. Tempting, but my interest is as much in the process as it is in the item.

Only one year later . . . Motto: "I may not do the best restoration work, but I'm slow !

Veneers ready for glue

Today I finally got around to gluing the veneer plies onto the core panel. I'm using a vacuum clamping bag.

That's great to see! Working wood is so satisfying.
You are to be commended.
Rich

Moving along slowly, the vacuum clamping was very successful. Blank cut to shape, I'm about ready to bore forty-leven holes in it !! (The scary part !)

Mighty fine!

And you are a lot faster than I am these days.

Excellent job Rich, bring it when you visit, I’ll use it on my 13 lol

Trial fit. I find the mounting position of the dash controls the fit of the door. As the hinges are tight, I find the door which was fitting poorly looks good now the body is "relaxed" and not in tension, bolted as it was to the old repro dash.

If anyone has drawn one of these up in cad I would love a copy of the file for my (woodworking) cnc machine.

Setting about making the panel look like Swiss cheese !
My gosh there are a lot of holes to bore !

Rich Eagle:
The "Cherry Firewall Stain" recipe you supplied is from a Tucsonan named Joe Whitney, "restorer extraordinaire" and I guarantee it is the best and closest match to the original Cherry Firewall Stain that I have ever seen. He used it on all of his wooden firewall cars, and I have used it for my 1914 Ford Runabout after he supplied me with a copy of the recipe back in the 1980's. I mixed a bunch of it up, and still have most of the ingredients on my shelf. I bought the stains and dyes at an art supply store, where they still supply leaded paints in metal tubes. His close friend Paul Eoff (past HCCA president) also used this formula for his 1910 EMF and his 1910 Jackson. It is a gorgeously true color. Joe did dozens of color tests in coming up with the formula, after discovering an original "base formula" for it in some library and making sure it looked as original as possible. Both Joe and Paul were "Smithsonian Class" restorers, and everything on their cars had to be "CORRECT".

Glad to hear that Jon Anderson is still active in the hobby.

The panel is fit to the body. Now I can bore the rest of the holes for frame and body brackets and the windshield and side lamp hardware before staining and varnishing.

Looking good!

I love your work Rich. The veneer finish finish looks like the firewall is made of wide planks. Is this because the veneer available to you is sliced veneer, rather than the rotary cut stuff used to make plywood? I was going to suggest one could use sheets of thin modellers ply as the veneer, but that was not the way it was done, and rotary cut veneer might look out of place.

I have just finished a marine ply firewall for a 22 model T. I cannot remember whether the original vertical ply was sliced or rotary cut, but because these firewalls are painted it really doesn't matter What was interesting was the joints in the random width boards that made up the core. Rather than plain tongue and groove which would allow them to simply stack one on top of the other, the tongue on these was narrower at he board edge, and so the boards had to be slid together. Nice joint that couldn't shake apart, but difficult to assemble and keep a consistent glue bead along the joints as they were assembled.

Allan from down under.

Thanks for the kind words Allan. This thread is getting pretty long. If you go back to the top you'll see that I cut 1/16" cherry plies from planks, rough cutting planks on a band saw, then planing to thickness, so this accounts for the "wide plank" look. Commercially available veneers are generally far too thin for this purpose, although I did eventually find a supplier who offered 1/16" thick cherry veneer. Partly, I opted to cut my own because I had the wood !

Members kindly posted pictures of original dashes which showed a few different joint profiles in joining the vertical core laminations. A couple of them appeared to be a sort of dovetail profile. I can imagine how difficult that would be to glue up ! I opted for a shallow tongue-in-groove as it's something I could manage to do.

It looks wonderful. I would think this is all more difficult than it looks. Planing wood that thin would be hard for me.
Good work!!!
Rich

Great project! Thanks for posting.

Trial fit with hardware. Bolts finger tight, no bind on the steering column. It went together smoothly, I'm very pleased.

Rich, I cheated by using a power surface planer. I'm not that great a hand with a "Bailey".

Saving the best for last, I made a jig to guide boring the angled hole for the carburetor mixture adjustment rod. Starting with a twist drill gave a "dimple" to center the brace and bit.

Now for the finish. "Laurel Mountain Forge" here we come !

Beautiful Rich! You da man!

One coat of stain . . .

Nice looking work.
We're both sides drilled for the carburetor adjustment rod?

Thanks, Kieth. We're told the originals were drilled to be reversible, but the print I used didn't show that. Drilling the angle hole made me a bit nervous, so I opted not to drill two ! I just hope I did the one I need right !

I am always impressed by the lengths you go to in your projects over the 60 years I have known you. Researching what is correct and carrying out the necessary steps to the end is commendable. I have been happy with half a dozen dashes I have made but none have been as wonderful as this one you have put together. You always set a new standard.
Thanks for showing the steps and describing them for the forum.
Rich

Yes, most impressive!

Thank you.

Rich, Wayne, thank you ! From you fellows, high praise indeed ! I'm humbled, 'cuz your help and example have always inspired me ! I hope others may find my puttering useful in some way or another.

End of the trail - installed the brass trim today, many thanks to Steve Tomaso for providing me with trim that fit the original 13/16" thickness of the panel.

Fantastic Rich!

Absolutely Wonderful!!!
Thanks for taking us along on the journey.
Rich

Very nice!

Rich, firewall is beautiful, job well done, congratulations!

I certainly don't have the vast amount of knowledge that I have read on this subject. I don't even have half vast knowledge on this subject. I was told and have seen on 1913 T's there are offset flange bolts on the steering column. I understood that the offset was on 1913 only. Was I told incorrectly?

Dick, that is correct. 1913 and earlier, the lower right flange bolt (from the driver's POV) was set a bit lower. Somewhere in between the '13 - '14 production, the column flange was changed to a four-square pattern. The flange itself is a different stamping. This dash is drilled for the later type; I'm "cheating", replacing my worn out '13 column with a very solid and lightly used later "four-square" unit. there goes my membership in the "purist society"

It's a hybrid, Rich. I did the same on my '09.
Being wrong has its own rewards.
Rich

After you get that beautiful firewall installed, do you think that you'll actually take the T out to tend to fences and irrigation pipes? Just asking.

Mark, no doubt about it ! Lizzie is a "using horse" and I missed her sorely last summer. She'll definitely be back to work next season ! The new dash is actually a needed repair. The previous reproduction dash was mighty feeble after 20,000 miles of touring by former owners. Soft fir inner plies had given in to the stresses of the steering column.

Update:
Last week my friend Joe (aka havnfun) and his son-in-law Esteban came over from Kuna (260 mi) to help me get Lizzie started after the engine/trans rebuild. Lots of cranking, she’s mighty stiff ! A cold, rainy day didn’t help. Yesterday got her started again, clutch adjusted, and rolled her down the road and back about 1/4 mile. She’s running well !

I am so pleased with the remarkable difference the new dash and “gently used” transplant steering gear have made.
She feels so solid now, and handles so well on fresh tires, I believe it’s how a brand new T felt to its first owner.

Now to work ! We have fence to fix and water to run !

Looks fantastic Rich!

That looks so good. Glad it’s driving better. You should be running the wheels off it soon.

I notice your body to firewall bracket is the early one, which was most likely dropped by March 1.

Wonderful! So pleased to see you two on the road again!