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Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:45 pm
by Steve Jelf
We don't need to get into a big whooptedoo about whether to use engine pans. I aim to do it. But in researching the mounting hardware I find some disagreement about what's the right hardware. I'm sure about the bolts: ¼-20 carriage bolts with about an inch of thread. But what about the nuts? Hex or square? What kind of washers, if any?
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:27 pm
by Adam
Long skinny carriage bolts that go thru the hood shelf, frame rails, splash pan with a lock washer and square nut on the bottom.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:58 pm
by KWTownsend
Steve-
Take a look here:
http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/1915/default.htm
P/N 3088 is engine pan bolt 09-12 uses 7 of them. 1/4" x 9/16" I believe they were 28 tpi and have square heads bolts drilled for cotter pins.
Yet used square nuts. (!)
P/N 3088B is engine pan and hood board bolt and nut '09-'15 1/4" x 3-1/4" (short) (2 req)
P/N 3088C is engine pan and hood board bolt and nut '09-'15 1/4" x 3-5/8" (size) (? req)
I wish I could be more help. Maybe someone has some pics of original "engine dust shields," bolts, and nuts.
: ^ )
Keith
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:20 pm
by R.V.Anderson
The long bolts that Adam mentions were a combination hood board and engine pan bolt, in a carriage bolt configuration, that began to be used about July of 1913. They came in "short" (3-1/4", used in front) and "long" (3-5/8", used in the rear) lengths. Until then, the (separate) hood board bolts were a slotted carriage bolt 1-5/16" long, and the seven 1/4" x 28 engine pan bolts were as shown in Keith's photo, and were 25/32" long.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:05 am
by Allan
Our Canadian sourced cars had bolts as RV advised. The same bolts that hold the hood shelves on, hold the engine pans too. i don't know if this is universal or not, but the heads of these bolts are smaller than standard hardware store coach bolts, and the SQUARE nuts are somewhat larger.
Allan from down under.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:32 am
by Original Smith
Here again, how are we supposed to supply and answer, when the year of the car is not given? Those items were changed over the years considerably. We all should agree that the engine side of the engine pans use the engine bolts. In many cases the engine pans have gotten the holes enlarged due to being replaced several times, and require a flat washer to hold them on. In 1913 alone the hood board bolts were changed twice! The first design is like a 1912, with a slotted head that is fastened under the top side of the frame. The second design is still slotted, but goes through to the bottom edge of the frame, and is held on by 1/4-20 square nuts, 1/2" across the flats. There are two different lengths of these on all years from March of 1913 until the end. The later T's use carriage bolts, with very small heads, much smaller than the hardware store variety, but still use the same 1/4-20 square nuts, 1/2" across the flats.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:53 am
by R.V.Anderson
FWIW, the change in 1913 that Larry mentions took place right at the end of the model year, in late June/early July.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:01 am
by Steve Jelf
Yes, I should have specified 1915. Not telling the year is one of my pet peeves, so shame on me. 
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:42 pm
by Allan
Steve, some of us realised you had no T later than 1915, and the early stuff did not apply in your case. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Allan from down under.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:23 pm
by tmagill
Keith, what are the clamps in your picture for? Tim
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:15 am
by KWTownsend
The clamps are for acetylene headlamp gas lines.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm
by tmagill
Keith do you make them or have any for sale? I need one for a 1914. Thanks Tim
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:12 pm
by KWTownsend
No, I don't but they are not too difficult to make.
I don't remember the exact dimensions, but for my 1911 they are about 1/2" wide, and 1-3/4" long with a 1/4" loop in the end.
One link below has Rich Eagle's specifications. I recently learned that the photo I posted is his.
There is some more information here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/540853.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1371823897
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1436287370
: ^ )
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:08 pm
by tmagill
Thanks Keith for the info. Tim
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:47 pm
by Tbird
I'm resurrecting this post because I have a question as to the length of the earlier style engine pan hardware with the square heads. I'm making my own bolts and ned to know the actual length from under the head to the end of the bolt. I saw two dimensions posted 9/16 and 25/32. Can anyone with the hardware give a dimension from under the head to the end of the bolt?
Thanks
Mike
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:56 pm
by Steve Jelf
This list claims they're the same, 1909-1927.
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:23 am
by Scott Rosenthal
Hello Mike:
I too made my own square head bolts, and built to the lengths shown here. I put the cotter pin holes as close to the ends of the screws as I could get.. Parts are a tight fit, but they do fit. I can imagine that repro gas line clamps of incorrect heavier gauge, could be a watch out here.
Regards,
Scott
Re: Engine pan hardware?
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:37 am
by TRDxB2
Original Smith wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:32 am
Here again, how are we supposed to supply and answer, when the year of the car is not given? Those items were changed over the years considerably. We all should agree that the engine side of the engine pans use the engine bolts. In many cases the engine pans have gotten the holes enlarged due to being replaced several times, and require a flat washer to hold them on. In 1913 alone the hood board bolts were changed twice! The first design is like a 1912, with a slotted head that is fastened under the top side of the frame. The second design is still slotted, but goes through to the bottom edge of the frame, and is held on by 1/4-20 square nuts, 1/2" across the flats. There are two different lengths of these on all years from March of 1913 until the end. The later T's use carriage bolts, with very small heads, much smaller than the hardware store variety, but still use the same 1/4-20 square nuts, 1/2" across the flats.
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I am with Larry on this. The FORUM is the classroom for all current and future members. It needs to be the place that "documents" authentic and non-authentic parts and solutions. Not everybody knows what everybody owns and if they own more than one which one is up for discussion, or if they are just helping out a friend. Good descriptions and solutions, with pictures should be provided whenever possible.