MTFCA Forum

Not wanting to steal BobT's Dexcool thread, I'm posting this new thread.

Thank you BobT for getting me to do some research. I believe I have found an ideal antifreeze/coolant for Model T engines. The biggest drawback is the price. This is totally offset by the lifetime of the product: Expected lifetime is the lifetime of the engine. This product is WATERLESS. It protects down to -40 degrees F and has a boiling point of 375 degrees F. It is best used is non pressurized systems but works very well in pressurized systems. There is NO corrosion with this product. NO galvanic action between aluminum and anything else.

I AM NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THIS PRODUCT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

Evans Waterless Coolant https://www.evanscoolant.com/

Considering a T cooling system is about 3 gallons, the total cost of a new/rebuilt engine coolant charge would be about $150 @ $50/gal. Ideally, a person would start with this coolant when the engine and radiator were clean and dry. This product can NOT be used with ANY water or water based antifreeze. I see this as both a benefit and a problem. Benefit due to the corrosion, boiling point, and freeze point properties. Potential problem with expense and the need to carry coolant with you in case of a loss of coolant. The FAQ page says it is OK to use water added in an emergency but the whole program will have to be redone/reinstalled as soon as possible.

They have a procedure for installing this product in an engine that currently has water based coolant. It will be a little more expensive but much easier on a T than on modern vehicles.

Please visit the web site and research this for yourselves. I am looking forward to your input on this as I think I must be missing something due to this sounding like a holy grail. But, I especially like the total prevention of galvanic corrosion as I am planning on using aluminum heads on my engines. This sounds almost too good to be true. They have a YouTube channel with a ton of videos. I was drawn to Jay Leno's Garage featuring this product. Jay is using this in his Duesenberg so I believe it will be good enough for my model Ts.

Thank You,
Terry

A couple of things to consider: (1) Traditional ethylene glycol based products work very well in Model Ts. (2) A very high boiling point product might work against you in a Model T, since it could allow the engine to get very hot without showing overt symptoms, such as "bubbling", spitting steam or outright boilover. (3) A quality tradional antifreeze, mixed properly, will provide excellent protection in a Model T at reasonable cost, and such products are known to be fully compatible with the standard Model T iron/copper/brass,non-pressurized, thermo-syphon system as well as systems with aluminum, copper, iron, brass, plastic, and steel parts. I would make every effort to install an aluminum head with all possible care to insure against even the slightest head gasket leak. Even tiny combustion gas leaks will foul the coolant with nasty stuff.

Water with 1 cup of soluable cutting oil.....

I'll stick with the green ethyline glycol antifreeze. It is reasonably priced. It is available at most gas stations, auto parts stores or Walmart. and you can carry some with you or even use water with it. With the number of things which could cause a T to leak or the need to pull the radiator or engine the lower price product suits me just fine and I've had no problems caused by antifreeze. I have, however lost freeze plugs, had a hidden leak when I went on a tour in the desert. Fortunately where I overheated, there was a source of water. With our mild climate in southern California, I just use it for the seldom times it dips below freezing and it works very well for preventing corrosion. I use the cast iron heads on all my cars. Some who use aluminum heads might have different experience.
Norm

I'm with Norm on this. I use a premix anti-freeze that protects the cooling system even with an AL Z-head. The car never overheats even following slower Ts up a steep grade in the hot summer months.

I have two Model Ts and have found over the years that they need to come apart occasionally. When that happens it is nice to have a reasonable cost coolant to replace what you loose or can't recover in the drain pan. As attractive as Evans Waterless Coolant sounds, I think it is more practical to have something that can be mixed with water on some lonely country road and replaced completely at a reasonable price.

Evans Waterless Coolant may be lifetime but our cars are not. They need maintenance & repair both at prescribed intervals and when the unexpected happens.

Putting many of the past threads of one of he more popular forum discussions in one place. I should have included the year of each since Antifreeze technology improves, even coolant oil.
Antifreeze or not http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1463096065
Coolant viewtopic.php?t=20129
Model T Coolant http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1322356482
Use 50% green coolant, or just water? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1466825169
Antifreeze http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1483028221
Evans Coolant https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=14478
Coolant/Antifreeze http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1436801291
Coolant Recommendation https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=16879
Antifreeze for Your Model T http://tinlizziesofabq.com/Antifreeze-f ... del-T.html
Antifreeze Warning http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1336871099
Antifreeze? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1374090468
Running Straight Water vs. Antifreeze (in the summer) http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1337747557
Maximum anti-freeze mix http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1400334201
How much antifreeze? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1252792999
How many gallons of antifreeze does the 1912 ford radiator take.? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1383325829

I'm with Adrian. I have no need for antifreeze here in South Australia. Green coolant in any car with an alloy head. Water and soluble oil if the car has an iron head.

Allan from down under.

Terry, with all due respect, you need to do some more research on Evans coolant.

Even Evans discourages the use of their coolant in a Model T: "Ford Model T's without a pump rely on the boiling of the water to circulate the hot coolant. This type of cooling system is known as a thermosyphon system (gravity circulation) Evans Waterless Coolant will run hotter than the water system due to the higher boiling point and the lack of vapor that moves the coolant when it boils. We normally do not suggest using Evans Waterless Coolant in this application, although we have had success in the past. This success depends A LOT on the condition of the radiator and the actual temperature range."

When a manufacturer of anything claims it is the best there is, I view the claim with skepticism until I find evidence supporting their claim. On the other hand, when a manufacturer of anything claims it would be well to avoid in in my case and provides the reasons why, I'm inclined to believe them.

Lang's (and I'm sure others) carries this product and they state: "This waterless coolant allows engines to tolerate running hotter without boiling." Note - it will NOT boil; it WILL run hotter. Kudos to them for their forthright honesty (which I consider to be one of their trademark qualities). Considering that Evans' specific heat is around .65, or 65% as efficient as water, there is no conclusion to come to other than it is not suitable for a system DESIGNED for water (or as we typically use them, water-equivalent coolants).

OK, OK, I relent...at a 375F boiling point, perhaps there is someone on the planet that could drive a T to the point of complete melt-down. That would make for an interesting post and would not garner much sympathy from me...that would be an excellent example of getting what one deserved.

If someone is looking to cook their oil and deal with associated issues, this is the product for them.

Just in case https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/forum/ And from the last lengthy discussion about Evans (includes water pump discussions) was included in the links above
Evans Coolant https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=14478

I used to have a 1937 John Deere B unstyled tractor on cut-down rubber tired wheels. It had no water pump and I used green anti-frreeze in it, 50-50 mix with water. It had a large radiator cap, like 4" or so. The system was atmospheric. You could start the engine and let it idle, and in a few minutes, you could see the coolant circulating, almost as if it had a pump. I never plowed with it, but it never showed the slightest inclination to overheat, even in 100 F + weather. It had a shaft-driven 4-blade fan with a lot of pitch.

50/50 green.

On one of the FB Model T pages, one guy said he uses pre-mix because he didn't want to make a mistake in mixing. Mister Thrifty is happy to take that risk to save a few bucks.

Some other product may indeed cool a Model T more than 50/50 does. But does it need to? Does a T need to run cooler than 50/50 allows? No.
Some other product may raise the boiling point. But does it need to? If a T runs on 50/50 without boiling, as mine do, no.

I have no trouble dumping a gallon of straight antifreeze and a gallon of distilled water into a pail. It ain't rocket surgery. Both are available everywhere and are inexpensive. The resulting 50/50 cools my engine adequately and contains anti-rust ingredients. What's not to like?

Ford Model T's without a pump rely on the boiling of the water to circulate the hot coolant.

No, they don't. The water begins circulating soon after the engine starts, and in a Model T that is up to specs it keeps circulating without ever boiling.

I'm with Steve on the Model T not needing to boil. Its been many years since I took physics in school but I seem to remember that warm water rises on its own, it doesn't need boiling bubbles to propel it. Indeed, the Model T cools even when the engine is shut off. It cools any time there is a temperature differential. Often I have driven my T in the winter with a motor that is far short of boiling. It could have used blind on the radiator to get the temps up.

I still like premix. While it is easy to mix anti freeze in a pail as Steve suggests, the occasional top-ups are less easy to judge. Are you going to mix a batch each time? How much will you need? What do you do with the extra? Far more practical to use the premix. I keep a gallon in the trunk "just in case" but have yet to need it.

Paul

Been running regular green antifreeze and distilled water (50/50) since I put my T back on the road a few years ago.

With a new radiator and a flushed out engine, I've driven in 105 degree temps, with the T sitting still at stoplights, and the thing won't overheat.

When Texas recently saw 7 degrees F sustained for 12 hours and sub-freezing sustained for two weeks, I was glad to have the antifreeze in place.

(and....for what it's worth....I'm draining and replacing the antifreeze yearly)

For what it's worth, I'm always amused at the temperature difference at the top of a Model T radiator and the bottom.

When I first shut off my car, the top of the radiator is too hot to keep sustained skin contact, whereas the bottom is uncomfortable, but you can leave your hand on it. That's quite the delta. I'm not sure what it is....I need to put a temperature gun on it and find out.

I know this exists with modern cars too, but it seems to be more pronounced with my T.

When I bought my Berg's radiator, I was intruiged by his website saying that this radiator "will cool" your car. I thought, "wow...that's bold". But his confidence is justified.

While it is easy to mix anti freeze in a pail as Steve suggests, the occasional top-ups are less easy to judge. Are you going to mix a batch each time? How much will you need? What do you do with the extra?

The extra.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:42 pm

While it is easy to mix anti freeze in a pail as Steve suggests, the occasional top-ups are less easy to judge. Are you going to mix a batch each time? How much will you need? What do you do with the extra?

IMG_6082 copy.JPG
The extra.

That's what I do as well

My Model T has sucessfully completed several Montana 500 competions prior to my acquiring it. It always finished, and placed well. It has a Berg radiator and competed with no fan and green antifreeze.

Answers to two questions.
1. The top tank is hotter than the lower tank. That is normal. As the thermosyphon is caused by the hot coolant rising inside the engine to the top of the tank. As it cools it moves down to the bottom tank and goes back into the engine to repeat the circuit. With a newer car, you have pressurized cooling system and a water pump which circulates the coolant as long as the engine is running. That is why the newer cars have a thermostat which opens when the coolant reaches a certain temperature.
With a water pump on a good functionating Model T, the coolant will rise too fast and cool too much. The thermosyphon system is self circulating. It won;t begin to rise until the coolant starts to heat up. And after you stop the engine, it will still rise a bit right at first. That is why it tends to gurgle for a few seconds after being turned off on a hot day.
2. This is what you do with the "extra"? Save it to add as needed. Good to take some along on a tour just in case you need it.
Norm

You'd best hope that your vehicle with a downflow radiator shows a temperature drop from the top to the bottom tank any time it is running. A thermosyphon system will continue to circulate until the entire system is the same temperature. Modern vehicles with crossflow radiators will not necessarily show a top to bottom temperature spread, but the return side tank ought to be considerably cooler than the inlet side tank. Most modern systems have essentially no thermosyphon effect. Older vehicles with downflow radiators with the upper tank well above the engine head, like most old sixes, Flathead V8 Fords, etc , will show some thermosyphon effect after shut down, especially in cold breezy weather, until the thermostat closes.

I have a 26 with a water pump and when You shut the engine down its like Mount Vesuvius gurgling and spewing steam for a few seconds. engine temp drops very slowly. the water pump does not seem to have any by pass water flow that would allow thermosiphon action with the motor off.

Most water pumps used on the Model T will still allow some natural circulation of water when not running. Some maybe more then others. Even the Model A was not fully water pump driven circulation, it also relied on thermosyphon with the pump being a helper.

Novice wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:23 pm

I have a 26 with a water pump and when You shut the engine down its like Mount Vesuvius gurgling and spewing steam for a few seconds. engine temp drops very slowly. the water pump does not seem to have any by pass water flow that would allow thermosiphon action with the motor off.

Water pumps are band aids for cooling system issues. You may have some clogged or restricted tubes. Drain a little fluid out to reveal the tops of the tubes. Look in with a bright light. You should be able to see a few tubes. Are they clean & unobstructed? Some of the tubes on opposite sides can be clogged also. You can feel for cold spots.

Water pumps are band aids for cooling system issues. You may have some clogged or restricted tubes. Drain a little fluid out to reveal the tops of the tubes. Look in with a bright light. You should be able to see a few tubes. Are they clean & unobstructed? Some of the tubes on opposite sides can be clogged also. You can feel for cold spots.
[/quote]

If the baffle is in place and if you can see around it or if it has large enough holes to see thru.

Bob

that is an interesting and informative report. Is it safe to assume that the radiator was new or nearly new 20 years ago when the Evans was first introduced into the system? round tube or flat tube radiator?

With such a low thermal efficiency as Evans has, I'd think your cooling system was/is top notch. That would be a very important factor to know, for those contemplating making such a switch.

Thank you Bob

From the Evans Data Sheet
Safety Data Sheet Issue Date: 29 September 2014 Revision Date: 4 January 2017 Version 3

3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
Ethylene glycol 107-21-1 74-90%
Potassium 2-Ethylhexanoate 3164-85-0 <4%
Potassium Neodecanoate 26761-42-2 <2%
Sodium Nitrate 7631-99-4 <1%
**If Chemical Name/CAS No is "proprietary" and/or Weight-% is listed as a range, the specific chemical identity and/or percentage of composition has been withheld as a trade secret.**

See the safety Data Sheet or the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDSs) for more information.

And this:

Safety Data Sheet for Prestone ® Antifreeze/Coolant

SDS501
PRESTONE ® ANTIFREEZE/COOLANT
Date Prepared: 09/24/2015
Page 1 of 8
SAFETY DATA SHEET
1. Product And Company Identification

Page 2 of 8
3. Composition/Information On Ingredients
Component CAS No. Amount
Ethylene Glycol 107-21-1 75-95%
2-Ethyl Hexanoic Acid,
Sodium Salt 19766-89-3 1-5%
Neodecanoic Acid,
Sodium Salt 31548-27-3 1-5%
Diethylene Glycol 111-46-6 0-5%
The exact concentrations are a trade secret.

See the safety Data Sheet or the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDSs) for more information.

So the Evans ingredients add up to 97% and the Prestone ingredients add up to 110%. Does this mean you get more for your money with Prestone?

I prevent cooling system problems by using nothing but a 50/50 blend of Perrier water, pure Catalonian olive oil, poached and pureed quail eggs, and Gilbey's London Extra-dry Gin fortified with a sparkling drop of Retsyn! My radiator never boils as I enjoy faster accelleration, higher top speeds, and super fuel economy using the cheapest gas in town!

I prevent cooling system problems by using nothing but a 50/50 blend of Perrier water, pure Catalonian olive oil, poached and pureed quail eggs, and Gilbey's London Extra-dry Gin fortified with a sparkling drop of Retsyn!

Isn't that a 50/50/50/50 blend?

I don't know. I had to proof-test the gin, just to be safe, and.... got any Alka-Seltzer?

Pat .... Good idea about testing coolant for the GIN content, especially after a hot run.... Darn alcohol could escape from the hot temperature.

Step back to 1993, Car Talk and the discussion was about Vodka as a winter antifreeze. Apparently the use in the winter will work to keep the cooling system from freezing. But come summer, the vodka will just boil away.

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you for all of your responses. I had expectations regarding potential replies. With the exception of about a half dozen posts, you did NOT disappoint me.

Thank you Bob Jablonski for your story. You have confirmed my expectations.

As was stated, Evans is up to 90% ethylene glycol. From the Evans web site, it is stated there will be a 6-8psi pressure increase when the coolant warms up to operating temperatures. This means the coolant expands to increase pressure. Expansion directly correlates to density. The hotter the fluid, the less dense it becomes. Thus, a thermosiphon flow has a great potential for occurring. Being as Evans is up to 90% ethylene glycol, it would appear it would work very much the same as a standard mix of ethylene glycol coolant. With the added corrosion package and the total lack of water, the corrosion resistance should be outstanding as compared to any water diluted products.

My plans are to completely rebuild the engine, add an aluminum head, add a new, quality, radiator, and am considering whether or not to add a water pump (most likely will since water pumps were a period appropriate aftermarket option). In understanding period appropriate water pumps, I find the clearances and impeller construction designs leave a whole lot of room for thermosiphon flow when not operating. Much different than modern pumps. My most important concern is galvanic corrosion between the block and aluminum head. I have experience with this type of corrosion and common prevention methods. Using an anode is problematic. The anode requires replacement on a regular basis and will leave corrosion products in the coolant that will foul the radiator and coolant passages.

It appears most of Model T owners have accepted technology newer than Henry used and are happy with it. I appreciate your comments.

It may be years before I will comment on how well my plans have worked out. This thread will be long forgotten by then. I expect to be able to write the same as Bob J. posted when that time comes. BUT, you can be sure I will post results whether the results are good or less than desirable for all to benefit from my experience.

Good Luck to You ALL,
Terry

FWIW, I have a 2004 GMC diesel with an iron block and aluminum heads. It has exhibited absolutely no cooling system issues using DexCool for the last 17 years. I sold a 2005 Toyota V-8 Tundra with an iron block and aluminum heads a few weeks ago. Absolutley no cooling system issues using factory fill coolant. The fact is, Name brand "green" antifreeze-coolant, used as directed, will give excellent service in an iron/aluminum system. If you want to go deep into the overkill zone, better to direct your energy toward obtaining the best possible head gasket installation and the best radiator available. More highly-engineered head bolts, or a stud and nut arrangement, would be desireable. If you feel compelled to go beyond that, modifying the system to hold about 7 psi would be a good move. If you go that way, be sure the radiator you select is designed to be used in a pressure/vacuum system. Be aware that period-type water pumps with period-style packing that is not in perfect condition can draw air into the system at higher engine speeds, which is very detrimental. One sure way to avoid aluminum head issues on an engine designed in 1907 with an iron block and head and hardware store head bolts ..... is to use an iron head. If you want to save weight, leave your spare at home and do without a starter, generator, and battery.

Maybe a cast iron/aluminum system, but what happens when you put lead solder/brass in the mix? I am pretty sure I have seen that as the reason NOT to use some anti-freeze brands.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threa ... on.301243/
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1973_10_s460.pdf

The green stuff works great in iron/copper/brass/soldered systems. I've seen some "solder bloom" in very old cars (decades old) that have not had enough maintenence. That may be (neglected) coolant related, or not. I'm not a chemist. Solder bloom is a white crusty material that forms around solder joints, usually where the tubes are attached to the header plate. I would expect to find, and have found, much worse worse issues in very old vehicles that have been subjected to routine neglect and those that have been run with whatever water is readily available and no antifreeze. Neglect will take a toll on any cooling system. Neglect includes running with expired coolant, leaks, including leaky water pumps, especially on flathead Fords and any Ford with a water pump in the head, using hard water, with or without antifreeze, and running with even tiny head gasket leaks or cracks into the water jacket.

You may find Lucky Tiger pomade efficacious. Apply with a butter knife at 78 F and let soak overnight.

Pat, do you soak it in Evans coolant, antifreeze or just plain water? I want the best results.

Allan from down under.