MTFCA Forum

Rob

Happy belated birthday Darel.

Rob

Pics please.

Rob

Kim, Thank you for sharing this journey with us. A few facts and figures to add. 500 Model B were produced, selling for $2,000. A few things to consider about the Model B. In 1904 and 05 when the B was designed and primarily sold, if a carmaker produced and sold over 100 cars per year, they were usu...

Rob

Kim sent this video of his successful test drive of this early production (#51) Model B. Click on the link below to view his drive:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffohhcozh9v64 ... B.MOV?dl=0

Rob

Trent Boggess, college professor and early Ford historian, presented a discussion about his early Ford database. Trent located, and painstakingly tabulated the remaining Ford Motor Company production/shipping ledgers for early Ford cars, 1903 - 1909. Click on the link below to hear his explanation o...

Rob

Gil, nice try.......... 8-) Susanne, the dual spark was with the motor/project. It’s similar to the one on the 410 cubic inch Ford Special racer at THF. I don’t know if it was with the motor originally, or found and added to the project at some point in time. Bud, the motor was balanced by Fawcett r...

Rob

Stopped in today to check on a few things. Pics include the 09 style waterpump, magneto drive with dual spark Bosch mag and deflector shield over auxiliary exhaust ports:

Rob

Thanks guys. Yes, Dave, amazing shop. I think I overheated the motor last summer, and there was scoring on the pistons and cylinder walls. Fortunately we were able to hone the cylinders, but needed new pistons. When Tony got into the motor, the crankshaft also didn’t turn well (videos below) and was...

Rob

Rob

Our 300 cu in motor is almost finished. Tony Schafers, lead instructor at our local college took on the motor after some damage last summer. This is how it looks now. Awaiting the headgasket, then back together and into the car. We’ve had tremendous support with this project, from Fawcett Restoratio...

Rob

Rob

Rob

Natalie Weaver, editor and photographer for the Model T Times, helped me put the following article together, and it ran in last months T Times issue. This article is part one of two covering Henry Ford’s last, and arguably best pre world one racing efforts. In a nutshell, Henry Ford approached his l...

Rob

Bob,
I think he put that in to see if you were paying attention. You get a gold star.

Trent had this slideshow prepared, and it is obviously a typo. I suspect he’ll read this and see it.

Rob

Last Thursday Trent Boggess presented his research into the first Model T, or T prototype, including the two lever, three pedal car. That’s right, two lever, three pedal. Trent has graciously allowed us to post his presentation. While the entire recording lasts two hours, the first hour consists pri...

Rob

George, Darel and Bud, Trent Boggess put together a presentation on the first Model T, including prototypes. He delivered to a small group of us over Zoom a few days ago, and has given permission to post it, so this is a timely thread. I’ll start a new thread with his presentation. Better get some p...

Rob

One last thing: 18844AA2-43B5-4812-8A28-686C547D2918.jpeg Landaulet, Ford, Model NRS style waterpump, with Model T style shoulders and tank on the radiator. Right hand drive, and it doesn’t look like it has the large T style transmission. I think it also has NRS style high low lever on the right of ...

Rob

Things I know and think I know. This October 1907 Motor World article describes the early Model T prototype in some detail. One interesting sentence in the article (bottom of second paragraph, first page) reads “an advance view of them was afforded a Motor World man by Mr. Ford himself.” In other wo...

Rob

You go! Literally and figuratively. Enjoy.

Rob

Greg,
I’m referring to Ford’s first magneto and dual ignition system, standard to the Ford six (Model K).

Rob

Lots of good comments and information in this thread. Thank you all for posting. A few points (take them for what they are worth..... 8-) ) Ed Huff collaborated with Henry Ford to design one of the most unique ignition/magneto systems ever invented. In fact, the likes of it wouldn’t be seen again on...

Rob

John, we hope to make it down under in the next few years.

Rob

John, so good to hear from you. I hope to see you again in your homeland or here. It was a good gathering, and Steve is a great ambassador for Piquette. Take care old friend.

Rob

It’s pre-T, but a beautiful 1908 Model S Roadster appears in the opening scene of “Meet Me In St. Louis,” staring Judy Garland in the early 40’s. Never mind the movie was set in 1903 and 1904 leading up to the 1904 Worlds Fair: https://youtu.be/70T47mC-jxY 62CC9772-ED68-447D-9129-F4BB7640604D.jpeg

Rob

Many thanks to Steve Shotwell, President of the Piquette BOD, along with several other Piquette friends and board members for this virtual description of future developments at FMC Piquette Avenue Plant. Steve enthusiastically agreed to give a virtual talk to our early Ford and Friends Thursday afte...

Rob

Thanks John. Hope the “other” pics don’t detract. With that said, I think the first pic in your last post may include a Model K roadster: 1903B2CB-9BDF-43AA-833A-E14916B0015E.jpeg I flipped a pic of our K because it was the closest angle compared with the car to the left in the photo you posted: B4A...

Rob

Dan, Cecil Church (RIP) cloned an S/T touring years ago (about 1976). I believe it was on the cover of the Ford Times (could be wrong). I saw the car a few years ago, and it is a beautiful recreation. Ford Motor Company audit records indicate Ford produced three Model T and two Laund (laundelet/town...

Rob

Wayne, that’s not the half of it......... 8-) In early 1904 Ford shows a Ford coupe, along with his first four cylinder production car, air cooled (that didn’t make it to regular production): D8198FBB-2E0B-47F0-8CEF-D54607460BC0.jpeg And in August 1904, the “Physicians Ford;” 5C57903A-7158-40F0-94B1...

Rob

Wayne, not to hijack this Weeber thread, but some of the Ford coupe pics from previous articles. First, a 1907 Coupe version, appearing on a Model N chassis (step plate, not Model R running board), with both bodies included for $850: 4FB1FD3C-3908-4D4D-A7F3-B9D442DFF4CF.jpeg Early 1908 Coupe ad, on ...

Rob

Thanks Wayne. Gil, to further put the costs into context, a dollar in 1907 was about the equivalent of about $25 today. That makes the average cost to own the Ford N would equal about $13,700 per year. Not bad, but still significant.

The times were changing.................

Rob

I find it interesting how many miles early automobile owners drove. This Ford advertisement appeared in a Scranton newspaper in early 1907, and makes the argument that a Ford Model N will save both time and money for distance traveled. One of the many points include using an average of 8,000 miles i...

Rob

Thanks guys. Wayne, I agree, cars must have been a game changer. The world was changing rapidly, with phones, well run railroads, an infant road system and conveniences like electricity and gas available in many cities. However, it’s good to remember, more than half the population lived in rural are...

Rob

Thanks Mark, looks like quite an impressive car. Too bad it appears to be in a permanent mausoleum, but good it’s able to be “viewed.” The Jones returned from their early 1911 five month tour of the Holy Land and Europe. They took an automobile and chauffeur with them, motoring through Europe. Unfor...

Rob

Mark, if you’d like, please post a photo of the Lozier at your office building. They must be an incredibly rare car. Thanks for posting. 1910 comes and goes. First with a “trip around the world:” 39B86F11-3E76-4331-ADB1-48D72CAB3DDB.jpeg And we learn of two more Jones auto acquisitions: F45934CB-A07...

Rob

Welcome back from knee replacement. I’m on year 10 of both. I’ve never regretted having it done (ok, maybe since about week four or five).

Rob

TIM, that’s great! Outstanding car!

Rob

Wayne, thank you for the good info on Mobile and early steam cars. And I agree, early motorists often took on long journeys, sometimes covering one up to two hundred miles in a day. The Jones continue to enjoy their automobiles through 1908, touring eastern states and attending the Vanderbilt Cup Ra...

Rob

Perry, I have to try to interject a little suspense....... :roll: As it turns out, the Franklin doesn’t last long. In fact, less than two months: F200D87C-E715-4FB6-BFDD-D7447F436EEF.jpeg Time to own a “real six cylinder car:” BC087DA0-84E4-48DD-8EB7-C0F147E849E4.jpeg Almost from the start, our Ford...

Rob

Before 1906 ends, and into 1907, one more automobile for the Jones, an imported C.G.V: E3E29662-5505-40F9-9305-5B2D962DB24E.jpeg E4C7F81A-6E38-473C-BF0A-A8BB6624A17B.jpeg Meanwhile, the Scranton Ford dealer Conrad Bros. places one of the largest orders for Fords for 1907, 50 Model N and 10 Model K: ...

Rob

The Jones son, Harry and his wife visit the summer home, driving his “big Pierce touring car,” of course: 465BE7F6-99A7-4373-AAE8-25370AE7323E.jpeg During the fall of 1906, the Jones embark on a tour to Maine and the New England, driving their Pierce Arrow: DC7F1523-4B99-4F39-A990-3187C6106F0C.jpeg ...

Rob

1906 is another big year of motoring for the Jones. We learn Cyrus has purchased a Pierce, and is in the market for a limousine: BC7EC06A-0232-4BA5-ABD5-E3D36683DD34.jpeg Within a week, the paper reports the Jones have found their limo, a 45 hp Pierce Arrow: F25ADEE5-C570-42BA-BB89-46DCFFA5F6E6.jpeg...

Rob

In 1902, the Jones have purchased a Winton: 71B33A8E-C60B-4BFA-9086-24226A5B9EC8.jpeg And by early 1903, they add another Winton: 234D6E1C-AAB8-46A7-B997-3C21F68F3653.jpeg D71AAAD9-7494-4405-BAA1-AD72609E08EC.jpeg In 1905, C. D. Jones has added a $6,000 Mercedes to his stable. In todays dollars, thi...

Rob

Cyrus D. Jones was one of the wealthiest citizens of Scranton PA at the turn of the last century. 06A1A7B2-C9E8-4F5B-A854-ABF5534E21A6.jpeg Jones along with his brother started the Grand Union Tea Company, that would expand with stores and sales throughout the country: 028630A6-7F5F-48B7-85F1-468B87...

Rob

This is my candidate for “first Ford speedster.” Heyward Shannon, a young Princeton graduate, bought one of the first Model K Fords in 1906. This photo shows he and his wife and friends driving one of the first Model K. The “humpback” radiator give it away as one of the first dozen or so Model K sol...

Rob

Tim, good photo, and choice. One might call Sweepstakes, 999/Arrow and this racer the first Ford speedsters. If the “first” designation goes to a production Ford converted to sport/racing configuration, I have another to offer. It’ll take a bit to find the file (that’s on another ipad charging as we...

Rob

Thanks to contributions from Mark Herdman, Bob Trevan and Andrew Brand, John Williams and others from “down under,” we keep piecing together more information about this New Zealand Ford Six (Model K) converted to a speedster. First, Andrew just sent this photo of the New Zealand speedster: ED794A33-...

Rob

The conditions were dreadful, and the two largest and most powerful cars headed back to Dearborn from Lansing early. We had to stop to light the lamps. The late Tim Kelly, wife Joan along with Kim and Dave Shadduck made the trip in our Ford Ks. https://www.dropbox.com/s/mosxiowgsgz9uqu/Video%20Sep%2...

Rob

More old videos during social distancing. happy Easter.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/glqtwt6on5cu1 ... M.mov?dl=0

Rob

Before the Model T, Henry Ford built, and drove the fastest racer in the world. Let that sink in a little. By 1910, he was building more autos than any manufacturer in the world. And he wanted one more shot. He wanted his Model T to beat the fastest car the world had ever known. And this racer would...

Rob

A sight not often seen. Four Ford Model K break into pass in review at Old Car Festival.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hm1rct3cdzulk ... M.mov?dl=0

Rob

Richard, the prototype tractor HF is operating used a 1905 Ford Model B motor, Model K radiator and front axle. I believe the photo was taken at Ford’s farm, and two Model K can be seen partially tucked into the open front shed in the background.

Rob

Thanks Kim. It’s amazing that Henry Ford kept one of his prototype tractors. Hard to believe he was experimenting with tractor/farm implements at the same time he was ramping up to become the largest auto maker in the world with introduction of the K/N/R/S and designing the Model T. He certainly did...

Rob

From Ford News clips. This is one of many FMC production films at the National Archives. Ford began filming news shorts that were distributed to theaters around the country, beginning in 1915. Henry Ford cutting down a tree, playing with grandchild(?), plowing with tractor, and arriving at a steam e...

Rob

Nice to hear from all of you. I first met Tim at the Early Ford Tour at Paynesville MN, preceding the New London to New Brighton tour years ago. He had his Model K and offered me a ride. Within seconds we were effortlessly cruising down the highway at 55 mph, and I said “I thought these cars weren’t...

Rob

Wayne, Thank you. Tim was passionate about the cars, their history, and the many friends he had in the hobby. He was especially kind with youngsters, and a great ambassador for our cars with young people. I posted this video in the summer of 2018. I’m slowly rolling through old video and posting the...

Rob

To my good friend the late Tim Kelly. Three Model K, an 09 T, 08 Silver Ghost, lot’s of great cars and incredible tour: Click on the link to see the dropbox video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rdm9z8gegemc81v/Video%20May%2028%2C%209%2013%2023%20PM.mov?dl=0 8CAE0D60-D27C-4D5D-88FD-238115B3D5A4.jpeg B0E7...

Rob

Another.......... 1908 Ford Model S Roadster stripped of fenders and hood: 34AC7927-30B9-4DBB-BCEA-9F8801984C0C.jpeg 63575830-B7AC-4297-8994-E8ECE78F7F93.jpeg Full article: 30BB7663-9544-4225-B4EF-08F2D02C48C8.jpeg On the same page, the Ford dealer was quick to advertise: C24F0C4B-CFC6-42FD-AF83-DE6...

Rob

I’ve played this before, but we’re home “sheltering in place” with two octogenarians and one teenager, so time for distractions.... The 300 cubic inch racer to Chebby music last summer. Click on the link to see the video on Dropbox. If you watch it, just imagine a motor almost the size of a Chebby s...

Rob

Thank you for posting, great pic. The photo says 1906, and the N looks to me like an earlier (06) model, with higher “shoulders” radiator and bale (bail?) handled sidelamps. If it is an 06, it’s one of only 1200 made, as Ford wasn’t able to get their N’s to market until July, with the model and fisc...

Rob

Tim, yes, I believe that’s the 228 motor mentioned. I hope someday someone finds more drawings, to better differentiate the racers. Scott, I had not thought of the the “pipe” idea from the drawing. I believed all along that it’s either the faceplate, as tim point to above (red arrow), or the facepla...

Rob

Jerry, “ In other words, it's a trim piece and nothing "structural".” Obviously it’s not structural. Also, it’s not sealing or containing liquid. I think it’s a faceplate/flange for either the exhaust pipe, which must exit the “dashtank””,” or part of the top of the dashtank. What I know is this is ...

Rob

Leo, Abraham Lincoln would have been 98 years old at the time these Ford’s ran in the 24-hour race. I’m often surprised to find civil war veterans of both sides driving our early Fords and other pre-war cars. It puts things in perspective and demonstrates the ties our cars and we have with events th...

Rob

Thanks again for all the educated guesses and ideas. The few things I know, and think I know........... It appears only the M-III had the “dashtank.” I’m still suspicious as to why this opening used wood screws, and only 4 at that, to attach it to whatever material the structure was made of. There a...

Rob

I don’t know. I wish there was more information, but there isn’t. As a result, we are speculating. I’m only able to go with what little I know. This doesn’t appear to be a viable “nozzle” point. It is listed as M-III, a specific application. That’s why I posted it. Thanks for all your ideas, Rob

Rob

Thanks guys. On these drawing, no signature, date or title blocks. The only identifier is the “M” and Roman numeral identifier. Having the advantage of seeing all that exist in a box at Benson Library, I know the “M-III” is the 300 cubic engine racer. You all have have great information and ideas. I...

Rob

I’ve looked at this and looked at it for a few years. I believe this is either the top or side opening into the false tank used on one of the Ford Special racers. This “tank” is used to hide the back cylinder of a racer motor that extends through the firewall. I don’t have a photo of the other side,...

Rob

Thanks Jason. My “theory” why Malcomson didn’t buy into Ford Manufacturing Company. Below are excerpts from Malcomson’s appeal due to a suit by Reeves Pulley Co. against he and his failed company, Aerocar. The suit was brought in 1909, and reveals much about their business arrangement. Malcomson con...

Rob

Jason, I have a few others, but these two probably received the most attention nationally as racers, in part because their six cylinder brother set a world record in this race. Ford reported they are Model R, and the one on our left looks like it may have a flat top McCord oiler: 4A29230D-C4D5-470C-...

Rob

Thanks guys. Books written about this period of Ford history tell us that A. Y. Malcomson “forced” Henry Ford to build the Model K, and some the Model B. Most writers also tell us that Henry Ford created Ford Manufacturing Co. for the purpose of circumventing Malcomson and depriving him of profits. ...

Rob

Alexander Malcomson responded to the Board or Directors demand that he resign from the board: AE76DE0F-5B18-4832-9F94-2FF052FAC8F2.jpeg D72652D8-10D0-4683-B176-E2E8EF20F830.jpeg I typed alongside due to the poor copy, and highlighted what i think are interesting portions of his reply. On a related n...

Rob

Expanding on Leo’s comments on this thread: https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11556 FMC was humming right along in the late fall of 1905. Models A, B, C and F had been financial successes. Investors had made back several times over their initial 1903 investment in dividends, and Ford ...

Rob

Leo, I’d have to check, but I believe John Dodge was on the board from the 1903 start. Gray died and his son came on the board in the summer of 1906, near the same time Malcomson sold his shares, mostly to Henry Ford and I believe a few went to Couzens. I believe Bennet and one or two other investor...

Rob

: E4344BC1-E6FC-479F-9083-C0880C14296D.jpeg (65.57 KiB) Viewed 451 times

Rob

Thanks Dan, I’ve often wondered where the three T sold prior to Oct 1, 1908 (two T and one “Landaulet”) went, and what they looked like? We may have a photo of the “Laundaulet,” as there’s a photo of a town car with an NRS style radiator out there. Ford was showing a few reporters and dealers their ...

Rob

Working on an article, and cleaning up a few odds and ends from THF, i thought these copies were interesting. Many historical accounts I read seem to suggest discord between the Dodges, Henry Ford and longtime équivalant of a modern Chief Financial Officer, James Couzens. I suspect at the height of ...

Rob

Below is an article about the finish of the relay in the Elmira Gazette: 1D83FBBA-ACAB-4516-8A02-4AF5C3B2DA43.jpeg The caption below reads in part “Ford Six-cylinder...........” “Pope -Toledo and Thomas Six-cylinder Flyer, which accompanied it to the Governors Island Landing.” We now see what the ba...

Rob

Dan, Thanks. Yes, I thought it was an Aerocar because I knew one made the Kingston to Newburgh leg of the relay. The curved front axle and kingpins worked, and radiator shape somewhat looked like the later 40 hp Aerocar. Add to that, Aerocar came out with a 1907 model year roadster that showed up in...

Rob

Scott and all, I’ll be darned! Sometimes a person (me) is so confident they try to make a square peg fit in a round hole, even when they can see it won’t fit. I smugly was confident I knew what the other car was, and who was driving. I think Scott nailed it. I’ll explain my thinking, and then my “co...

Rob

Russ, I suspect the “big” racers were started by pushing. I have a photo of the 1100 cu in Ford six racer, with Henry Ford driving, being started by push start. I know from starting it that a 400 plus cu in motor is a load to ignite. The Blitzen Benz and big motors of the period had compression rele...

Rob

Thanks guys. According to an article on “The Old Motor,” the Thomas Flyer Six had a 750 cubic inch motor. I just don’t think it’s profile would have been so low and small in comparison to a 405 cubic inch Ford Six. From the “The Old Motor:” 1F26B696-8DEB-4893-9117-2D7B33855EFD.jpeg “The E.R. Thomas ...

Rob

Thanks Scott. The radiators do look the same. However, I don’t believe the car is nearly as long, although it’s hard to tell. I believe I know who one of the men is, and that makes me think it may be a prototype of an automaker Henry Ford knew well in 1906. I’m off to run some errands, and will get ...

Rob

While at the Detroit Public Library last week, I came across this unlabeled photo. The car on the left is a 1906 Ford Model K. The first 06 K’s had an upright crank holder, and this one is stripped of fenders. I couldn’t tell what the car on the right was, nor what the banner on the Ford reads. Last...

Rob

The “Automobile Cab Company” raised capital for the purchase and operation of 200 Model B Fords. Had this happened, I suspect our opinion of the model, both here and in England, would have changed dramatically: C4D20AAD-6826-42CD-8BC9-5CBBD45E4B8D.jpeg However, the calandre was working against Centr...

Rob

Dan, i don’t know regarding B similarities with the copper jacketed Cadillac motor. Maybe Kim will weigh in if he’d reading along, since he’s been “in the guts” of the B motor. An interesting side note regarding Model B are the chassis sent to London and fitted for taxi work. Below, 12 Model B taxim...

Rob

A few period pics of Model B. Production at Piquette: B9078248-4495-4A3B-9E29-77DE5F7471A7.jpeg Henry Ford riding. I believe Clara and James Cousins are in the back: 2EDFC901-3D32-4D25-90C4-26CAB0268CB4.jpeg 60712CCA-8C91-4975-8D3B-436B17D6BED9.jpeg 215007AE-D36F-43C4-A289-48AE839BA97C.jpeg

Rob

Thanks Tim. That’s a great story of recovering #1. I saw it at the AACA museum once. Great car.

Rob

Almost labeled this, “Model B - things I know, things I think I know, and things I don’t know. As Kim brings one of the earliest and most complete Model B left back to life, we’ve had a chance to see his work, and enjoy bringing this significant Ford out in the light. Since there’s no Chickasha comi...

Rob

Jason, I believe this is one of the first Ford “Special” racers. Below is one of the stories about the race that appeared in newspapers and magazines around the country. It was one of Ford’s first speed contests since 1908 (not 1907, as most historians write, because Frank Kulick did track race a Mo...

Rob

Leo, good picks showing the progression of Ford’s racers. Thank you for posting them. Below the progression between the first, and second (of three) six cylinder racers is shown. The first shows Henry Ford at the wheel of the first Ford Six racer on the sand at Ormond Beach, FL , early 1905. Longtim...

Rob

Back home from Detroit. Motor Age had an article about the Cape May races that included the following photos, allowing identification of the photos above (they’ll be posted to the Detroit Public Library digital collection for online viewing): 83A0BC6D-BCF9-451D-A53C-D5CAD438ACEC.jpeg 3B73B828-0F37-4...

Rob

I’m sorry to hear that. I was there yesterday and no one said anything. Hope the pandemic is brought under control sooner rather than later.

Rob

Before getting on the road this morning: A. L. Campbell with his 80 hp Darracq and Louis Chevrolet driving his 120 hp Fiat were faster than Ford at this meet. The fastest official speed was Campbell with 94.74 mph. Ford’s best came in at 90.45 mph. If one looks at the stock cars speeds, these speeds...

Rob

Finished three days at The Henry Ford and Detroit Public Library’s today. It was kind of a grab bag as it always is when looking for archival “treasures.” I came across photos from Ford’s Cape May competition in August, 1905. This was Ford’s second of three iterations of the six cylinder racer. The ...

Rob

Thanks guys. Walter, great find. These and three other will be scanned into the digital Detroit Library collection and available online. I’ll post a link when they are online.

I wonder why right hand drive?

Rob

That’s great!

Rob

I came across these in un cataloged photos at the Detroit Library. They will be digitalized along with a few other pics of the same cars. Initially I thought the negative was reversed, but both front and rear view show right hand drive and the store advertising print isn't’ reversed? Notice the cust...

Rob

Great thread! Thank you Kim and FJ for the updates.

Rob

Winton will return to Grosse Point track and set more records in November of 1901. Henry Ford is present as an official timer, but for an unknown reason doesn’t run “Sweepstakes.” In mid November, Ford issues the world speed record holder Henri Fournier this challenge: 16760BF6-A057-43CA-8718-975179...

Rob

Thanks Kieth, continuing on. About a third of the way down this page is the headline “Cooper’s Last Appearance,” referring to Tom Cooper. As we know now, it wouldn’t be Cooper’s last appearance on a track. He would consign Henry Ford to build two great racers that would beat the world, one with Barn...

Rob

Most of us have read or heard of Henry Ford’s first racer, “Sweepstakes,” and how beating Alexander Winton’s racer put the “Ford” name on the map. As with much of early Ford history, I was skeptical, and while preparing for a few future articles (to appear in a magazine near you 8-) ) decided to loo...

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