1912 Authenticity Questions?

[1913Runabout]

Hi Everyone. I'm trying to do a reasonably authentic restoration on my new 1912 touring. Serial is around 130000. It's a June car and a better than average original. It came from Colorado and I am the third owner.
1) The car came with a "Dodge Brothers Mfg" steering spider in steel. The acorn nut is also steel. All very nicely polished and painted black. I assume this is correct?
2) The original firewall under the coilbox is so red it looks like dull paint. One can almost see no grain in the wood?
What is the correct finish? It kind of looks gawd awful.
3) Were the knobs to hold the top on black steel? Solid or pressed sheet metal?
4). Were the hood shelves painted black?
5) The radiator appears to be a recored original. There is no Made In USA on the front. Likely correct?
6). There were no original hubcaps as the wheels were changed. Were the hubcaps a tall F with no MADE IN USA? I have a nice set of original Tall F MADE IN USA caps that I collected for my 13. When did they change? Anyone got an all original car around that month?
7) The horn is a high quality reproduction1911 style. I think double twist Rubes. Correct within reason?

Really appreciate the help. I know that many different parts were used simultaneously at different assembly plants. Brian in Santa Cruz CA

[TWrenn]

As I recall the spider should be brass. Both my former 12s were.

Hood shelves are black.

Hubcaps are tall F.

Radiator started having "Made in USA" early on for 12s, so yours certainly should being a June car, that is considered a late '12.

Firewalls were cherry stain. Various people use various brands to achieve what they like.

[TWrenn]

Laurel Mountain Velley Forge seems to.l have what most consider to be as close to original as it gets. I used it on my 12 and 13 and it looks great.

[1913Runabout]

Wow. Thanks. That's a great look. I will buy it. Thanks guys

[1913Runabout]

Behind my coil box in the original firewall.

[TWrenn]

So lucky to have what surely is original firewall. Hope you can keep it alive. And the stain behind the coil box sure looks like the Laurel Mountain cherry to me! Close enough for who it's for as they say!

[1913Runabout]

Do you think I should try to salvage the original firewall? I do have the original brass trim and screws. I'm not so good with wood but I will give it a shot

[Fire_chief]

I just had a new '12 dash made by Jon Anderson.
Excellent job. He uses the original drawings so you get an exact repop. I plan on finishing it with the Laurel Forge cherry stain, as I did for my '14s.

[Loftfield]

I had all the wood in my 1912 "saved" by judicious use of a water-thin, penetrating epoxy (epoxy, not polyester). You might be able to adequately solidify the firewall from the edges, keeping the faces free to accept whatever stain you put to use, if you even bother to add stain. Try a good cleaning with TSP then rubbing with turpentine mixed with linseed oil on a small, obscure area. You may be able to bring back enough original finish to keep things original. If the above works, you can dissolve some shaved bees wax into the turpentine/linseed oil mix to make a French polish, bring out more good looks.

As for the rest, it doesn't matter. 1912 was a year of absolutely massive changes, you can put amost anything on the car and find an acceptable picture or sales brochure showing that part to be correct. There were three different coil boxes and coils used, the earliest cars have no front doors, later ones have seriously interesting fillers for the drivers side door, an opening front door on the passenger side, some cars had leather straps running from the front top bow to the base of the radiator to hold the top, later had short straps from front top irons to the windshield hinges, etc etc etc. Some cars had leather upholstery, some leatherette. There seems to have been little rhyme or reason to the changes, and definitely no standardisation. Whatever came out of the stock room got put on the car. My take on the situations is that in 1911 Mr. Ford decided to start building automobiles rather than horseless carriages, began in the 1912 model year, but ever thrifty, used up all the existing stock in the process. Beginning in 1913 things became much more standardised.

Some folks remove the front door and filler to make the cars look "older", I see these often. Very sad, really, because the after-thought fillers are much more interesting, found primarily only on 1912's with a very very few on late 11's or early 13's, and if you want an open front car then just buy a 1909-1911. Your "June" car should definitely have the filler and front door.

As you get into your 1912 you will find it to be one of the most fascinating years for Model T. Don't panic, and take all expert advice with a big grain of salt, including from me. Given the history of your car, I would go to great lengths to keep things as original as is humanly possible, and consistent with your plans for the car: will you be a driver, or a show-er?

[Original Smith]

Get Bruce McCalley's Car That Changed The World, and the latest MTFCI judging guidelines. That should answer most of your questions.

[John Heaman]

Top 'O the mornin' to ya!

Perhaps a few of us can post pictures of our '12's to give you some ideas as to how you may want to finish your car.

Mine is done up as a good driver and not a show car. The color on my '12 is probably wrong for a touring, the tires should be smooth white ones and I put brass step plates on the running boards! Other than that it's pretty original. Leprechaun optional.

I believe my Canadian T is an April? build. The stamping isn't great on my dash plate but it matches my engine stamping. It reads 110338. Please note: my door handle should be vertical when locked. I had an August 1912 T touring and it didn't have outside door handles on the back.

[Russ T Fender]

Mine is original except for the prestolite bottle. Wrong color of course and whitewall tires but I like the look!

[1913Runabout]

I see door handles on one car and none on the next. If you guys could let me know the approximate engine numbers or dates of build that would be helpful.
I definitely plant to keep the front doors on my car. It will be dark blue as original.
My sincere st thanks to all who have replied.

[Russ T Fender]

Mine is a later style with inside door handles. They made lots of body style changes during 1912 and mine is the last one. Slab side with inside door handles. I will get the motor number and approximate build date for you tomorrow when I can get over to the car.

[John Heaman]

This is the man himself behind the wheel of a 1912. It may give you some restoration clues. I added to my original post to you my serial number details.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Hey there Brian H!
As Thomas Loftfield said, 1912 was a year of massive changes. Unlike the common perception of Ford doing everything "in house", they actually did use outside suppliers a lot, especially during the brass era. They used at least five body manufacturing companies, and details as well as specific dimensions varied not only from one manufacturer to the next, but also from one purchase order to the next even within a single manufacturer!
This forum has had many discussions over the past twenty years on the subject of details and changes in the bodies during the brass years especially. My 1915 runabout has several things not usually seen as early as 1915, but are found on several of the earliest 1915s (mine is a February 1915 body!). Manufacturing issues at the time caused many changes to be implemented, then changed back again, and later implemented yet again. Most significant changes involved a month or two of crossover time when both older and newer variations were being installed and sent out from the factory at the same time. Likely, there were times when three significant variations could be leaving together. From that, there are generally no actual simple date that changes were made. Ford archives do have records of date of changes, however, they were only "official" dates, when someone dated and initialed the change cards. They were NOT actual dates when automobiles stopped one variation and moved on to another variation. That is a point many historians sadly cannot accept.

The 1912 touring car body is often broken up into five significant variations that can be seen and identified in many common era photographs. These five are easy to see in many photographs. There are in fact quite a number of lesser variations (including door latch mechanisms!) that usually cannot be seen in photographs.

My apologies, I haven't quite sorted out the timelines on a couple of these myself.

The first two don't actually apply to your June of 1912 car, but for clarity, and putting things in their place? The earliest "1912" models, manufactured in the closing months of 1911 used the old carriage style body with offsets between the seats and the body base. They also had a shorter firewall, with a filler board under the windshield. That was a carryover from 1909 and 1910 when the windshield was optional, and cars without windshields did not get the filler board. 1911 and earliest 1912s still used the filler board in spite of the fact the windshield was now standard equipment. Because of the filler board, the removeable fore-doors and driver's side dummy had a step down at the front to meet the lower firewall.
In December of 1911, Ford began producing model Ts with a simpler and cheaper higher firewall, eliminating the filler board. This firewall change eliminated the need for the stepdown at the front of the fore-door and dummy door, hence it can be seen in many photos to identify earliest 1912s or 1911s with after-market fore-doors. It is often difficult to tell after-market fore-doors from Ford factory fore-doors in photos, but they are slightly different. This is the second significant variation, and both earlier and later styles were being built for much of December and part of January of 1912.
Soon thereafter, the next variation began to be produced. The newer updated smoother sided and again cheaper to manufacture style bodies began about (not sure exactly?) the end of January. Again, both older and newer styles were being produced together for about a month.
The new, smoother, style are affectionately known as the "slab-side" 1912s, and came in three significant variations (with numerous minor variations!)
The first two "slab-side" 1912 models had outside door handles on the rear doors. I don't know the timelines for these, or whether they were more a "time" or a body supplier variation? However, the rear doors could open from the front, or the rear? This of course can be seen in photos by the location of the outside door handle.
Along about early July, 1912, the final general variant of 1912 model T touring car bodies began. These were the slab-side bodies with no outside door handles on the rear doors. Note, that the front or "fore-doors" generally did not have outside door handles even on touring cars that did have outside door handles on the rear doors. There were however a few exceptions to that.
The mechanisms and inside door levers varied a bit. Some had longer handles that can be sometimes seen in photos of the car, sticking up above the top of the door. Often, even the longer levers cannot be seen due to the angle of the photo, lighting, or focus of the camera. Some cars had shorter levers that could not be seen from outside the door.
The late 1912 models can be very interesting. The 1913/'14/early 1915 cast center housing twelve rivet rear end actually began showing up on late 1912 models beginning in July of the 1912. Some late 1912 cars got black and brass lamps, like the 1913 models got. Some of them had transitional windshields (not many!). And fenders had several variations. the strengthening ribs to reduce vibration were added across the back slope of the front fenders and to the inside skirt of the front fenders. I have seen original 1912 fenders with either one of those two beads, but not the other one! By the first few months of 1913 model production, both those beads were on all new fenders. But for late 1912 and early 1913 cars, they could have had either, neither, or both!
A June of 1912 touring car should be fairly straight forward. Except that I don't offhand know whether the rear door should open front or rear?

You must be pretty busy these days with restoration work? Still working on the Studebaker roadster?

[KWTownsend]

Well stated, Wayne (as usual).

Brian, the hub on the left would be correct for 1912.
1913-14 on the right.

: ^ )
Keith

[Allan]

Brian, until I turned my laptop side on so that black spring was on the right of the photo, I had a hard time working out what part of your firewall was photographed. I think I have it worked out now. It is the left side, with the steering column circle on the right of the photo, and the outline of the butterfly bracket used to bolt the firewall to the body runner low down on the left. What had me confused was the red area you show is not behind the coilbox! Is it just representative of the colour you found behind the coilbox?

Until I worked it out, I was confused by the direction of the grain in the veneer and the subsequent direction of the boards in the core.

Allan from down under.

[Alan Long]

Anymore details available on that photo with HF in the 1912? Who, what, where occasion etc etc
Alan in Western Australia

[Russ T Fender]

Brian, the engine number on my '12 makes it a May build, probably the end of the first week or the beginning of the second week. The engine number is on a boss behind the water inlet and not over the inlet where it eventually wound up. This is consistent with the change in location of the serial numbers. My car is identified as car # 127,831 by the plate on the dash and has inside door handles and doors opening from the rear. I looked for, but did not find, anything that would identify the body manufacturer. Hope this helps.

[1913Runabout]

People have asked to see photos of my 12. Here they are. They stopped restoring the car in 1978. There was some paint adhesion problems with the Dulux Paint. I will repaint it a darker blue. It will be a driver, but I also want to do a reasonably correct job when I am at it. Brian
PS: I should note that the body is a Monroe. The serial numbers are stamped on the tops of the doors under the "wood garnish moldings". Also, the back half of the body was rebuilt as it was cut off. They found original Monroe doors for the rear including latches, hinges and one original outside door handle. The serial number on the front half is higher than that on the back half. Rear doors hinge at the front, but have door handles on the outside.

[1913Runabout]

More photos

[Colin Mavins]

It looks like your original dash is drilled for right or left hand drive

[TRDxB2]

Pretty sure you have both an original AMERICAN BOSCH coil and distributor. American Bosch is not Today's Bosch (Robert Bosch), it was prior to WWI then the US Government seized it and never gave it back. Not sure what model distributor but some models had centrifugal advance. The tell is the color, the body was a burnt orange. VW Bosch, Texas T Bosch parts will not fit. The original can run on buzz coils as well. I have documentation on maintenance. Not sure when the various models were introduced but I think that yours while its period correct but not authentic to the year of the car. AND not authentic to the car. If you don't want it I'll buy it and the ignition coil or trade for some coils

[1913Runabout]

I have removed the distributor. The car came with a very nice Heinz coil box. They rebuilt the original engine with a flywheel from a different car. I will charge the magnets and install it and the newly rewound 1912 coils that came with the car. I have some Bosch plates that I am using on some speedsters I'm building.