1913 runabout body

Post by **Don ellis** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:11 pm

"Asking for a friend" If a fellow was to find an all original 13 runabout actual barn find what would you think the body would be worth? It has a little rust through in one corner but the wood and everything else seems solid. I'm trying to work a deal and It's taken apart. I will probably part it out. What do you guys think?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:22 pm

"All original barn find" . . . But it's taken apart ? That is, it's a pile of wood and tin with some rust-out. Pictures would help, as usual, it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Is the turtle deck with it ?

I'm intrigued, one source claims there were no more than 1400 or so runabout bodied Ts sold for 1913, but there seem to be a lot of survivors for that low production number. I own one.

Post by **Don ellis** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:58 pm

notice the shelf in the back ground and the frame behind it. It was the same story, Old man found it, wanted to restore it and died. It's all there.

Post by **Ed Fuller** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:12 pm

I’m no expert, but it looks earlier than a ‘13 to me.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:13 pm

That looks more like a '12 Torpedo body !

Post by **Don ellis** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:15 pm

Serial number comes back to June 13

Post by **Humblej** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:18 pm

That is not a 13 runabout, it is a torpedo with a later turtle deck added. Great find!

Post by **Don ellis** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:21 pm

What do you say Rich since you have one?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:42 pm

Good guesses from the previous posts. The body is definitely not a '13 runabout, the turtle deck is a '14-'21 style with rounded corners.

Looks like a good, restorable body, it would be a shame to part it out. I have a little nagging feeling it might not even be Ford - comparisons with a '12 torpedo are in order. Thanks for showing it to us !!

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:57 pm

Neither '11 or '12, nor Ford (with the exception of the turtle deck)

Rich is on the right path...

Regardless, SOMEONE is going to recognize it, and when the word gets out, SOMEONE is going to want it...

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:04 am

The dash and lower platform certainly look like a Ford. Could it be a prototype, '12-'13 transition or from some odd body maker? It definitely looks very old.
It looks a little like this illustration.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:30 am

Just some views to compare with the '11 and '12 Torpedo.

Lawrence · Post by **Lawrence** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:33 am

1912-13 torpedo roadster, we used them here in NZ as a commercial roadster in 1913 sold new. Photo of my T as restored from an original
Chris

Lawrence · Post by **Lawrence** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:53 am

It's definitely model T, as body chassis bracket bolts say it all, just slightly different with curve in bottom of door, bolts at top of quarter panels are possibly for windshield support like mine. Just a thought
Chris

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:49 am

A couple good looks at original photos of 1912 T torpedo roadsters. (one has a weird trunk?)
Not sure what the OP body is? Could be as simple as one of the odd body suppliers made a few with that odd curve at the bottom of the door? Or? Not an open roadster with after-market doors, the open roadster's seat has a rounded top corner whereas this body has a straight and square front edge as most 1912 torpedo roadsters had. I just looked at about twenty era photos. These three showed the side of the seat and door best.

Post by **TWrenn** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:05 am

First, the door on the original post looks to be too tall for any torpedo. Second, there is no such thing as a '13 Torpedo either. Just '11 and '12, biggest difference in the '12 is the longer runningboard, and that they moved the seat a bit so people could REACH the pedals!!

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:26 am

I'm going to find out, I just made the deal. I'll post more pictures when I get it home.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:30 am

That needs put together, not parted out.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:37 am

A few pictures I got while there.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:02 am

What fun !! This is really intriguing. Thanks for the pictures, everyone. More pix of the mystery body show it definitely mated with a Ford chassis. The irons laid back at the "A pillar" position speak of a 1913 type windshield. Any road, it's not in the pattern of the "standard issue" 1912 torpedo. Could another maker have produced a body that similar ? Any clues to its provenance ? Could the original owner have bought a bare chassis and commissioned a local coach maker to "build something like this, but with . . . etc." And showed him a Ford brochure ?

If it were mine, I'd restore it how it presents, but lose the later turtle deck. What about the gas tank ? Any indication of its position ?

By the bye, that rear axle is much earlier than '13 - those in the know can date it.

Good luck, I hope you restore this one, or turn it complete to someone who will, whether we ever learn the full story of the "strange" body or not !!

Thanks for posting, it's stuff like this that keeps the forum lively and interesting !

Post by **old_charley** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:07 am

Rich's color depiction of the blue "1911" Torpedo pretty much exactly copies the illustration of what Bruce McCalley refers to as the earliest catalog illustration of the 1912 Torpedo. Page 112 of his book. It would seem to me that this body is a very early '12.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:13 am

It appears to have original upholstery, and thus it most likely retains original hardware, fasteners, wood parts, etc. That's a lot more than just "parts". It looks to have very little rust for something so OLD.

Post by **TWrenn** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:22 am

FWIW the turtle deck lid handles are pre-1917. And as Rich B pointed out, looks to have '13 windshield braces. Looking a lot to be a "Frankenstein" car. Interesting nonetheless.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:25 am

What about that rear crossmember?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:33 am

Good eyes, Pat ! Definitely not an early '13 frame.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 am

The firewall appears to be decayed plywood. Was plywood used in the early bodies? I thought plywood came into use in the 1930s/WWII era.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:40 am

"...there is no such thing as a '13 Torpedo either. Just '11 and '12"
Sorry for my mis-information and thanks for the correction. The '13 I labeled was an '11. I have edited it.
Rich

rickd · Post by **rickd** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:23 am

Don, when you get it home get that seat cushion off of the front seat frame and get some pics of the frame and the heel panel. Looking for builder initials and body number...maybe.

Post by **TWrenn** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:27 am

No apology needed Rich! I've made far worse mistakes!

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:08 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 am
The firewall appears to be decayed plywood. Was plywood used in the early bodies? I thought plywood came into use in the 1930s/WWII era.

Pat, not plywood per se, but the dashes were laminated. As I understand it, the main cores were vertically laminated hard maple, then veneers of cherry were cross-laminated either side of the core. It's been rather problematic for restorers, as modern cabinet type plywoods are slightly different in thickness, and frankly, the modern plywoods with softwood core plies are not as robust as the originals. My '13 was an excellent restoration 20 years ago but after some 20,000 miles of touring by two former owners, the stresses from the steering column have compromised the dash. I have bolstered the column flange on the outside with a brass plate, but the dash should be replaced.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:09 pm

I stopped and got some more photos. I couldn't find a number under the seat or door, I had a limited amount of time and no sandpaper. The tag with a name was to the left of the steering column. It appeared to be at least dealer installed. look at the fasteners. there was also a" Torpedoish" tank on the shelf, DB front axle.

Post by **ModelT46** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:14 pm

Make a list of what you need in original parts for this wonderful find. There are parts still out there and I feel that we would part with the original parts to build this find back to what it was.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:23 pm

Thanks for the additional pix Don ! It's a treat to see this critter ! Interesting how they coped the later turtle deck to that body.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:28 pm

The frame rear crossmember is correct according to Bruce, this is a June build and that crossmember started in May.
quote " Longer rear cross-member, beginning about 271,425 (May 1913), eliminating the forged body brackets." This body number starts with 289

Tbird · Post by **Tbird** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:00 pm

I see a Clam shell rear end. Those rear ends were not used in 13.

rickd · Post by **rickd** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:20 pm

Don, the number you are referencing as a body number "289xxx" is that an engine number or some other plate or tag on the body? Sorry for all of our questions but I think we are all kind of excited about your find and want to help.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:27 pm

It is the serial number on the fire wall

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:49 pm

It is a wonderful body and very intriguing.
The photos are beautiful and fun to see.
Thanks so much for sharing it with us.
Rich

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:52 pm

from what I can tell this is a Ford body. everything matches up to the frame and has not been altered. The one detail I have not matched to a torpedo is the shape of the rolled bead at the bottom of the door. It seems the others are square in the photos and this one is curved. I also have a gas tank on the shelf that seems to resemble a torpedo tank. I can't wait to get it o the house to figure it out.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:54 pm

Yes - that's a Torpedo tank ! Nice score !!!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:03 pm

I'd want to check the area very carefully for any and all stray parts for that vehicle.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:09 pm

It's a very organized place, unlike mine. I even saw a head gasket hanging on a nail!!

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:12 pm

The 1912 Torpedo tank was similar to the 1911, but it was mounted on a stand on each end. There were some oblong vertical holes in them.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:13 pm

Well, I guess I need to turn in my opinion license. It does indeed appear to be Ford.

Lots of interesting things, foremost being the odd door, followed by the firewall cutout which if done by the factory, dates it to 1912 or later. The accessory windscreen adjusters on the top of the firewall are neat, too. Sill plates are '11-12...certainly not '13.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:29 pm

I have not even noticed the windscreen brackets, I'm starting to think 11 torpedo body put on a 13 chassis. The door matches this, even if it does look like a drawing.

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:30 pm

: illustrrr.jpg (52.43 KiB) Viewed 10649 times

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:53 pm

There is practically NO chance that the body and frame were original to each other. The body appears to be clearly PRE 1913, whereas the the frame is mid 1913 or later. The twelve rivet clamshell rear end is a 1912 item, so it for all practical purposes cannot be original to the frame either. The firewall could be original to either or neither the body or frame? An early 1912 would have had the lower firewall with a filler board under the windshield. However, the higher firewall showed up about New Year for 1912, and most 1912 model cars had the higher firewall. If the firewall number roughly fits June of 1913, it is very likely the firewall is not original to the body.
Remember, the number on the firewall is not the official serial number, which was at that time specified to be the engine's serial number. By 1912, engine and car numbers had drifted apart somewhat. Nearly all Fords in the early brass model T years had four serial numbers! The radiator had a serial number, the body had a body supplier's serial number, and the firewall had a serial number. Those all in addition to the engine's serial number. In the earliest production, the numbers started out close together (car-seat/firewall and the engine number often/usually matched). Then they began drifting apart. In calendar 1915, Ford stopped the firewall and radiator serial numbers, ending the confusion those numbers were causing.
The body is still odd, with the curved lower corner. A closer look might help figure it out? Maybe the door was changed? Altered? Replaced? Possible the entire body was custom made? Not likely if it has the Ford Motor Company door sill plates? Again, MAYBE it was supplied by one of the small companies Ford got bodies from for awhile when the regular suppliers were booked up to capacity. I am not an expert on who all the suppliers were, but I know there were at least five companies supplying Ford at that time. Plus several others that only did partial work such as painting and trimming.
One of the photos shared appears to be the body supplier's serial number. It appears to have a letter or two? But I can't make it it out in the photo, and don't recognize it myself.

I know people today like everything tied up nice and neat with a ribbon and a bow. But that is not how it was done originally! Henry Ford was a superman! What he did was impossible by any standards of the day before 1908! How he managed to pull it all together and pull it off boggles the mind! Every day brought problems nobody could have envisioned. Henry and the people he commanded were solving problems on the fly, every day!
The model T Ford is the ultimate icon of mass production! Fifteen million cars, all alike! No two exactly alike? Especially true in the brass era models. (Okay, it is a bit of "literary license" to say NO "two" exactly alike? But the point is?)
We may never find all the answers to this body's story. Maybe we should burn it so to not cause undue stress and confusion to people today? We really cannot restore it back to exactly how it left the factory. It has been too messed up by people over the past hundred plus years for us to ever know exactly how it was when it left the factory?
However, regardless of some oddities, it is an original era torpedo body. It appears to be in condition well worthy of restoration. I think (for whatever THAT is worth?) it should be restored. Place it on a proper 1912 frame, with a proper 1912 rear end (the one under it looks good for a start?), and use as many other 1912 parts as deemed appropriate. Definitely, replace with a proper torpedo gasoline tank! Sell off other later pieces (the mid 1913 and later frame, as well as the turtle deck/trunk).

That turtle deck/trunk isn't worth much. Funny thing to me. For my 1915 runabout, I bought a rough but solid turtle deck, figuring to spend some time to straighten it out and restore it (had to save dollars). I liked that the metal was solid, no serious rust , no thin spots. I got it to looking pretty good, and began to install it. That was when I discovered mine had been altered to fit something later. It wasn't so obvious on mine, that the lower front sides had been cut back a bit, leaving a significant gap between the front of the turtle deck and the back of the runabout seat. So I got to ruin some of my paint and extend the sides forward, then retrim to fit the back of the seat. Just a couple more hours of work. It looks great now. And at least I didn't have to reconstruct the front top edge on mine!

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:54 pm

1912 Torpedo

Post by **Don ellis** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:28 pm

That door matches, if that's an original 12 body I would say that's it.
Wayne I think we all agree the body didn't come with this chassis, The chassis is a mid 13. The rear axle is not and it seems the body is probably a 12 torpedo. But it is fun to try and figure out, not trying to wad up anybody's panties.

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:45 pm

Well, to add to the door shape mystery and by identifying the license plate, we see that this particular 1912 Torpedo is located in Gauteng, which is a province of South Africa. We look further and find the torpedo is owned by a member of the South African MTFC.
https://www.facebook.com/17731161662646 ... =3&theater

: 3B467417-B443-4F20-941B-0051B3506667.jpeg (68.29 KiB) Viewed 10570 times

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:23 pm

Could it be Canadian or overseas production?

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:29 pm

That’s what I’m leaning towards.

Tbird · Post by **Tbird** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:48 pm

This is probably the neatest find next to the original delivery car that sold on this Forum.

Post by **Mark Gregush** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:51 pm

Ford used the term Torpedo well past the actual production of the true torpedos, for the roadster. Page 4 of the 1923 body parts book says Torpedo, page 7 calls it a Roadster.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:10 pm

It's NOT an '11 - the front panel forward of the door is short - a true '11 panel was near as wide as the door. I have an '11 - '12 commercial runabout body under my wife's '14 Fire Chief's rig and the rear of the front seat is straight across not "dipped" which is a trademark sign for the Torpedo.

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:33 pm

I am really pleased to see that green South African torpedo! I hadn't mentioned it earlier, but something in my brain says there was a discussion a few years ago about an era photograph showing a 1912 torpedo with that curve (trim?) on the door. I spent a bit of time looking through the era photos I have harvested from past discussions, but could not find it. I really do need to organize all that stuff. A Canadian variant is a good probability.
Regardless, I would love to see someone restore that car!

And as Steve T says. Definitely not a 1911. Everything about the 1911 is different. The seat is different, shorter in height. The door appears longer, and may be (I never had some to check the measurements?). The door clearly is much shorter in height also. The 1911 sill and platform is very different, with offsets and a much higher appearing seat platform (hence the seat that is shorter in height?). And the longer appearing front piece with more pronounced offsets from the sills.

SteveBoothroyd · Post by **SteveBoothroyd** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:54 pm

I zoomed in on the photo and saw that the speedometer appears to be a Stewart Warner Model C which according to Russ Furstnow's Speedometer handbook, was used in 1913 production.
Interesting and potentially rare body.

Regards,

Steve Boohroyd

robert daniello · Post by **robert daniello** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:09 pm

Interesting to see the sediment bulb on the tank is the conventional, rather than the torpedo, type. My mid '12 production US torpedo has the same setup. I had thought mine may have been changed as a later repair, but perhaps not. I would be curious to see the door jambs and under seat compartment of this body.

Interesting project. Is the firewall drilled for a '12 or '13 style steering column? I assume the column is not present?

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 pm

Would not an '11 Torpedo roadster have butterfly rear fender iorns on it? The original photo appears to me to have a single rod for the fender support.
I vote 1912.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:58 pm

I believe that the sill plates are the style mostly associated with the 1911 model year. I willodify my vote to an early 12 or late 11.

1915ford · Post by **1915ford** » Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:56 am

A great find! Without question the body is a 1912 torpedo. Sill plates are correct and the dash is also likely original to this body.It looks like the patent plate is still in place above the steering column hole so the car number might be there for you. This will not match the engine number but the offset can be extrapolated from other surviving 1912 cars. During the cars active life an aftermarket windshield brace arrangement was added to delete the cumbersome forward mounted brace rods in favor of rear leaning type and universal fit dash brackets. The tank and tool box were cast off and replaced with a 1914 or later trunk. The tank with the car is correct for 1912 torpedo but could not have been used with the later turtle deck so a custom tank must have been fabricated to fit inside the turtle since a torpedo body has no room for a tank below the seat. What i dont see is the 1912 only tool box and tank brackets. They are out there but tough to find. The tool box uses two brass locks with grip handles built into them. I would not expect that speedometer on a car of this era. Worth a look beneath it to see if other holes for a model 24 are there. You have the 1912 rear axle which is also very hard to find. The frame shown is not a match for 1912 and the rear fender irons shown are also later style. 1912 torpedo used a unique rear fender iron and an unusual curved rear fender not seen on the other 1912 models. Well worth the effort to bring this car back if you can find the motor for it.

Post by **JTT3** » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:04 am

Herb I think you’re right though I keep looking at the space between the seat and the firewall which looks more like an 11 torpedo than a 12 plus look at the distance from the door jam to the curve in the back, it’s longer than a 12. Wasn’t the seat higher on the 12 too. From the pictures that seat is low. Wonder how long the column is? Does it have Bakelite knobs or flatten handles on spark & throttle. I’m not sure but a regular 12 column would be too short as it appears to me. I wonder how long the hood is. The 12 rivet clam shell was used in late 11 around July. Also if you zoom in on the fuel Tank you can make out another tank that has the 11 style strap, my eyes may be playing tricks on me though. What a great project. I’ve got a spare 12 engine if someone decides to tackle a light restoration.

Post by **Don ellis** » Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:42 am

The steering column has the cast base with the offset lower bolt hole it also has the flattened ends not knobs. I see it on the shelf but I have t pulled it down. I saw a hole in the deck for the fuel supply pipe too. I sure hope the tank stands are on the shelf, we’ll see Monday. The patent plate comes back to July 13 build date, the engine has a mid 13 casting date also, I couldn’t get the stamped number.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:40 pm

Here's a friend's original 1911 (not the color!) from Minnesota I did engine & chassis work on in 2015 - notice the wide front panel. At 5'4", I'm vertically challenged and could hardly reach the pedals to drive it !

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:50 pm

You're lucky to be the correct height Steve. Not everyone is.

I'm glad to see Ed's photos. That certainly is the same body type.
Rich

Post by **Don ellis** » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:57 pm

Picked it up tonight, haven’t had time to really inventory everything. Here’s a few pictures.

Post by **Don ellis** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:43 pm

The story I got from a friend of the man who last owned this is he got it from someone that had restored another and this was the left over pieces. The last owner basically bought it as seen in the photos. I sure would like to see what he built if he let these parts go. This is a Torpedo tank, the stands are missing. A very nice 12 to early 13 steering column, the engine has been professionally rebuilt, BD front end,11-12 rear axle, original sheet metal-rough shape, two windshields, original engine pans, and lots more. I'll show a frame repair in another post. Here's a few photos, this stuff is still out there!

Post by **Don ellis** » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:43 am

I found this in an older post, Pretty much nails this as a early 12 Torpedo body. also look at page 119 in Bruce's book, it shows and add for it.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25587&p=196008&hili ... do#p196008

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:47 am

It's a treat to see, Don ! Thanks for showing us.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:11 am

Yes, Thanks! There is something magical about the old leather and wood. I can almost smell it.
One of my pleasures in life.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:50 am

: 1912 ford from hcca classified.JPG (59.92 KiB) Viewed 9498 times

This one is on the HCCA site classified for sale section.

Tourabout · Post by **Tourabout** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:31 pm

Interesting....

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:45 pm

Here’s another torpedo for sale with Long Beach history.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224963559225?h ... Sw3X1iaAMS

Aussie16 · Post by **Aussie16** » Sun May 01, 2022 2:58 am

Congratulations Don on being the new lucky owner of this project. I have followed this thread closely and with interest. I concur with most thoughts, that you have a very nice 1912 early production Torpedo body, (very different form its earlier 1910/11 counterpart)and the correct mechanicals to make a nice authentic car from it. Of course, the rear deck top section is from a later model. Yours will have the a flat deck with the large round fuel tank and rectangular tool box behind. I am hopeful for you that the 1912 style Torpedo gas tank saddles and straps are still available from the parts vendors, as I was able to buy a new set many years ago??? Good luck with your project and be sure to post pictures as you work on it.

Lawrence · Post by **Lawrence** » Sun May 01, 2022 4:51 am

Yes all the best with your project, as i said earlier, my 1913! torpedo roadster was sold as a commercial here in New zealand, so options for what you put on the back.