Verifying Year of Manufacture: Touring Car

[Tom Dove Jr]

Picked up this little gem just a couple of days ago and can't wait to get back on the road. Engine has been overhauled and rebuilt 3 years ago but not put in as other work was not yet done. The owner then had to sell the car off which was my lucky day.

The engine serial number has been researched and shows a "production time frame" of May 1926 (s/n 13676708). I was told, as was the prior owner, the car was a 1925. Looks like it may be a "low cowl" but I need more practiced eyes to confirm.

Thanks!!

Tom
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[Art M]

The car is a high cowl. Others will have better knowledge of the year.

Art Mirtes

[Norman Kling]

You have a high radiator and the splash apron under the radiator, which were both typical of the 1925. The engine is a 1926. The body is NOT 26. Almost all Model T's on the road, unless restored by someone very particular to have everything date correct, have parts from various years since most can be interchanged with very little modification.
Norm

[Tom Dove Jr]

Thank you Norm and Art. I’ve got reference material on the way but needed that question answered for registration and parts buying.

Tom
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[kmatt2]

First of all the May 1926, 13.6 million engine number, is a replacement engine. Second the body is high radiator type and the front door hinge is the trapezoid type, ( door swings up a little when opened ), of 1924 and before. The 1925 hinge is more square. The radiator and the hood is for a low radiator car but shell is 24-25. The front fenders have the front lip of the high radiator cars and look to have the 1924 type exposed beed at the splash apron. The 21 inch straight side split rims were first offered by Ford in 1925 but were refitted to many a T in later years threw WW 2. Check your hand brake ratchet and look for the number of mounting rivet’s, four rivet’s were used in 1924 and two rivet’s were 1925. If your car uses the 1926 type brake drum and hogs head the pedal spacing will be a little different from 1924-25. If your car’s DMV paper work shows a year model of 1925 and matches the 1926 engine number then just go with the 1925 year model but when ordering body parts there will be some small difference’s with the 1924 bodies.
Have fun with your new Model T.

[Tom Dove Jr]

KMatt2, I’ll give that a look after returning home.

Thank you!

Tom
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[speedytinc]

First of all the May 1926, 13.6 million engine number, is a replacement engine. Second the body is high radiator type and the front door hinge is the trapezoid type, ( door swings up a little when opened ), of 1924 and before. The 1925 hinge is more square. The radiator and the hood is for a low radiator car but shell is 24-25. The front fenders have the front lip of the high radiator cars and look to have the 1924 type exposed need at the splash apron. The 21 inch straight side split rims were first offered by Ford in 1925 but were refitted to many a T in later years threw WW 2. Check your hand brake ratchet and look for the number of mounting rivet’s, four rivet’s were used in 1924 and two rivet’s were 1925.

Very good observations. So late 23 or 24 primarily. I do see a divot in the hood for the latches. That would make the hood a high one.

[TRDxB2]

Running Boards are 1925 and prior
Here are dimensions for the dash(firewall), hood and radiator shell

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[Tom Dove Jr]

So much GREAT information!!

Thank you, all!!

Tom
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[John kuehn]

Does your have the engine unit of a 26-27? You can tell if you take out the floorboards and if it is you can see by seeing if the transmission cover has two bolts on top that screw into the block. Also the pedals will be a little wider than the the 25 and back T’s.
Over time T’s can have different year parts on them because most but not all would fit.

[George House]

Another reason I believe its a ‘24 are both rear fenders. Altho’ they could’ve used up earlier parts on a ‘25, I’ve learned 1 year only 1925 rear fenders had a small ‘curve’ where they attached to the outboard of the running boards.

[Tom Dove Jr]

John, I’ve not yet started to disassemble but will keep that in mind when I do.

George, I’ll be posting up pics as I get to measure and verify how things are assembled.

Tom
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[TRDxB2]

Thank you Norm and Art. I’ve got reference material on the way but needed that question answered for registration and parts buying.
Tom
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There are not a lot of part differences between 1919 & 1925 and in some cases they are very subtle. So before you start you need to decide what you are attempting to do with your restoration (as it came of the assembly line, show competition, period correct, within a budget. So far there is agreement that the engine number is a 1926 and the car is not (24 or 25). It has been stated in the Model T Encyclopedia that the engine number should not be used to date the car because they are often replaced.
Now for the "Registration" but I think you mean the Title in CA. So what document do you have now stating what the car is. You said the owner "said" it was a '25 but do you have a Bill of Sale stating what you purchased? Reason for asking - a Title is just a document reflecting who owns the vehicle; and that's where things get fuzzy for a vintage car that does not conform to current Title definitions. The CA DMV can be your friend or your downfall - its best to just follow there guidance rather than try and argue about what is what (the California Members will chime in). My personal opinion is that the car is what it is and the Title is what it had to be to get approved.
Pictures of your leaf springs (number count), front spring clip, and front perches are a few other differentiating clues.

[Steve Jelf]

The CA DMV can be your friend or your downfall

I believe, as with any bureaucracy, it depends on who you deal with. I had a Packard with the engine number on the title, like a Model T. But at some time the car had undergone an engine swap, so the number on the title was wrong. I was dreading the can of worms getting the error corrected, but when I took the car to the San Pedro DMV office a young lady simply looked at the data plate on the firewall, did the paperwork with the correct VIN (not engine number), and had me out of there in a few minutes. In a couple of weeks I had my new correct pink slip from Sacramento. Sometimes you get lucky and deal with the right person.

[TRDxB2]

Another means of identification

Screen shot 2019-06-30 at 8.17.41 PM.jpg (57.55 KiB) Viewed 4120 times

[Tom Dove Jr]

This is all FANTASTIC information, and I wish to thank everyone for chiming in!

There is much information I need to get from the car to be reported back to you and "pin down", as best as can be done, the year of vehicle.

TRDxB2 asked a good question, one which I can answer; The plan for the car is to dismantle and rebuild to make as safe a driver as possible. There are also plans for some period correct updates (Rocky Mountain Brakes, Warford Transmission, etc.) for a better driving experience. Beyond that, I bought the car for it's historical significance and all those changes from how the factory produced the car such as various years of hood, radiator shell, wheels, fenders, etc. are part of the vehicle history to identify and embrace. All those bits and pieces will tell a story of changes due to accidents, miles driven, parts availability, and whatever else.

The one thing I am still debating is how to finish off the "restoration". Rebuilt seats, door panels, and finding/building a top are going to happen. Pounding out any obvious and eye-catching dents will be done. Finish paint ... not so sure, yet. Might just clean up everything and clear coat to show the "battle scars" and aging process.

This will not be a garage queen. It will be a running, driving car with a history 100 years in the making.

Tom
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[John kuehn]

If your going to try to get a title for your car there are a few things you shouldn’t do.

DO NOT go your DMV and tell them what you have done to or the parts you put on it. DO NOT
give them a history of your car about this and that. DO NOT tell them your trying to correct the title since the engine was changed or show them a list of Model T yearly engine numbers.

You will confuse them about what it is and lots of questions will come to their mind about what to do. Then they will go to a supervision and it can become really difficult. Hope fully you will get someone who has common sense but try to be realistic in what may happen.
Tell them your car is a 25 Model T and if it does have a 26 T engine they don’t need to know!


If it has a title go with what’s on the title AND THATS IT!
For a lot of these folks at your DMV an antique car is a head trauma experience.
I’m not trying to be dramatic or sarcastic but seriously try to keep things simple as possible and you will much happier in the long run.

[Norman Kling]

This is what I bought and had a bill of sale on it. Before I started the restoration, I contacted a local place in town which is a private party which verifies cars for registration. They then do the work with DMV to get the car registered in my name. They came out and looked at the pile and got the vin number on the engine and did the paper work. It was registered to me as Non-operation until I finished it and put it on the road. I did this because I didn't want to work on it for years restoring it and then find out I couldn't register it.
Another car I bought was already registered but the engine had been replaced. The car is a 22 but the engine is a 26. I had the title from the previous owner and his insurance papers. The title had the original engine number and the insurance had the current engine number. I took the car to the California Highway Patrol office and an officer came out and inspected the car. They ran a search on the engine number and there were no stolen reports and it was not registered to anyone else, so the number on my title was changed to the number on the block.
Norm
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[Original Smith]

That body is most likely a 1924> Look at the door hinges.

[TRDxB2]

If your going to try to get a title for your car there are a few things you shouldn’t do.

DO NOT go your DMV and tell them what you have done to or the parts you put on it. DO NOT
give them a history of your car about this and that. DO NOT tell them your trying to correct the title since the engine was changed or show them a list of Model T yearly engine numbers. .............

Tell them your car is a 25 Model T and if it does have a 26 T engine they don’t need to know!

If it has a title go with what’s on the title AND THATS IT!
For a lot of these folks at your DMV an antique car is a head trauma experience.
I’m not trying to be dramatic or sarcastic but seriously try to keep things simple as possible and you will much happier in the long run.

Exactly!!! Don't explain anything if they ask about this and that - its for a '25. If they know a lot about a Model T then your in luck and they'll pass it.
Tell them its a 25 Model T convertible (the only body style that matches the form) and give them the engine serial number if they ask BUT do not explain that the engine was replaced they don't need to know that and now your car title that matches the car exactly and everybody's happy

[John kuehn]

Yes the body appears to be a 24 going by the door hinges. Just noticed that as O Smith pointed out. The 25 hinges are a straight hinge and don’t have the offset like the earlier hinges.
They were made for the 25 cars. The earlier hinge was used from as far back as 14-16?? thru 24. I thought they were the same until I realized the difference when I restored my 21 Touring.

Do you have a picture of the engine since it’s not in the car? That would help in identifying the engine year.

[Original Smith]

Do your research on your car, and know what you are talking about before doing anything. You don't even have to consider registering your car for awhile until you have all the data you need to do it. I would stay away from the DMV. They are idiots. Find a independent registration service. They are easier to deal with. Perhaps you can learn from someone who has a known 1924, if that is what you think the year of your car is. Don't rush anything.

[Tom Dove Jr]

We’ll, it’s been 3 months but I did get some pics to verify a couple of things.

1924/25 high cowl.
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[Tom Dove Jr]

1924/1925 hood

[Tom Dove Jr]

Rear Door

[speedytinc]

Judging by your door hinges, I think you can narrow it to a 24.

[Will_Vanderburg]

The door hinges are not equal length, therefore it’s a 24. 25 hinges are equal.

[Tom Dove Jr]

Will and Speedy, thanks for the updates!!

Tom
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[John kuehn]

Here is a pic of two 25 hinges. Notice the difference from the earlier hinges that were used on T’s from around 14-24?
The 25 hinges are straight and the earlier are angled. Not straight like the 25 hinge. The pic shows two 25 hinges opened up. Your car is a 24 using the hinge style as verification.

Also going by the earlier photos of a side angled view of the radiator, you have the earlier low radiator on the car and the radiator is about 3/4 “ lower than the 25 shell. That’s why the pic is showing the radiator with a downward slant using the yard stick to show it’s not level with the cowl. You can run the car with the lower radiator but the hood will not fit correctly and not be straight with the cowl and won’t fit well with the hood hold down clamps.

As others have stated different year parts were used to build up a T or for replacement parts to keep them going. Not uncommon.