What is the condition of my engine?

[Vonau]

Hi

I want to get a 1926 Made in Canada Touring that has been parked for a long time back on the road. I'm new to the hobby and could use some good advice from experienced T people.

The previous owner had the Ford done at a workshop three years ago. Among other things, they worked on the valve seats, replaced the oil and got the engine running. The previous owner then drove it for a few miles.

I bought the vehicle with the cylinder head dismantled and the threads torn out.

Before attempting to start the engine I wanted to check the insides to be sure and have also removed the oil pan inspection cover.

1. Surprise: The cylinder bore is 3.875" !!!??? I think that's quite a bit over standard. The pistons also have a special bottom shape for a Model t (see picture).

2. The lateral clearance on the rod bearing surface on the crankshaft journal is different.
Rod 1: 0.02"
Rod 2: 0.008"
Rod 3: 0.031"
Rod 4: 0.035"

3. The crankshaft moves longitudinally by 0.024"

4. Some water can be seen in the drained oil. Where can that come from? The oil was replaced 3 years ago and has only been driven a few miles and the car has been dry.

What do you think of my first findings?

greetings from Switzerland

[Kerry]

What's the condition? not too good. What shape are the top of the pistons? being bored 125 thou would exceed the head gasket to seal correctly, 24 thou is too much float in the crank for the magneto.

[Allan]

They are not T pistons. It looks like it was bored to take pistons which were meant for a more modern car. The oversized bore may be the reason why the head is off. Frank's idea that the big bore compromising the gasket seal is more than likely correct. It would be interesting to know what the piston height is, what the compression ratio may be and how/if the wrist pins have been custom fitted in different bushes.

Unfortunately, the only proper way to retrieve this part of a rebuild is to re-sleeve the block and start again with standard T components.

Allan from down under.

[Art M]

It's easy to spend other people money, but I have to recommend to disassemble the engine and to check check everything.

Art Mirtes

[Vonau]

Thanks for the feedback

I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Basically, I wanted to try to get the vehicle street legal before I spent the big bucks. Not that I spend a lot of money and in the end don't get a license for the vehicle here in Switzerland.

I was aware that a total revision would be necessary in some time. But wanted to try to drive the engine like this for the vehicle test.

The top of the pistons looks identical to original in my opinion. Maybe you can see that in the picture. What problems can these oversized pistons cause?

I already installed the cylinder head. The head gasket is exactly flush with the cylinder bore and does not protrude. Now wanted to check the bearings before attempting to start.

But the longitudinal movement of the crankshaft worried me.

The previous owner had ignition problems with the original ignition. Therefore a modern ignition distributor was installed. So could the longitudinal movement of the crankshaft be the problem.

Could I temporarily fix the issue with a crankshaft end play repair shim to drive the vehicle before overhauling the engine?
Or would the shim from this post http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1459434494 be an option?

greetings from Switzerland

[TXGOAT2]

The engine seems to be in poor condition. The side clearance of the rods should be uniform, and the crankshaft end play ought to be a lot less, and the excess end play will likely cause weak magneto performance. It appears that the engine has run for some time to generate the amount of sludge present. The water may be condensation or it may be from short runs in cold weather. The engine should run OK if the valves are tight and in adjustment and the rods are reasonably tight on the journals. I would check rod and main bearing clearance, valve clearance and seating, then get it running and see how the rest of the car performs. The engine ought to be sleeved back to standard bore and most likely needs a total crankcase overhaul. I would expect to find the transmission also needs reworked.

[Wayne Sheldon]

If you are needing to get it running for licensing reasons before doing major repair? It might patch up and run okay with a little work?
That much bore oversize is a bad idea. A model T block really shouldn't exceed .060 thousandths of our inch. If your measurement is accurate, you are twice that now. Too much material removed from the cylinders is a high risk of cracking or rusting through the cylinder walls! If that begins? The block may be finished and turned to junk quickly. SOMETIMES bored that much works okay. And if it has been run like that already? You MIGHT get away with running it for awhile like that.
I would also recommend putting sleeves in the cylinders back to standard size.

The end play on the crankshaft is excessive, and would cause trouble with the model T Ford magneto, but likely would not hurt the engine otherwise. Many model Ts have been driven with much worse end play.

There is quite a bit wrong with that engine that can be seen already. I suspect more will be found when it is taken completely apart, especially in the transmission.

You can try checking it over, putting it together, and getting it running in order to take care of the licensing. But there is some risk to that. If they haven't already? A cylinder could decide to crack? Any of a number of things in the engine or the transmission could go into catastrophic failure. An argument could be made that many such failures would only destroy something that is already bad enough that it shouldn't be used anyway? But it is also possible that such a failure would destroy parts not easily found in your part of the world? On the other hand, it is a model T Ford. Except for the very early models (which yours isn't?), all parts are generally available, somewhere.

Your choice to make. Good luck!

[Vonau]

Thank you for the answers.

What happens when the cylinder walls tear? Is there water in the oil then?

Is a fine crack even visible to the naked eye?
Could a fine crack in the cylinder even be closed with a sleeve?

The engine probably ran like this a few decades ago and was made to run again three years ago.

A usable engine block made in Canada will probably be difficult to find.

Greetings from Switzerland.

[Wayne Sheldon]

A lot of block cracks can be nearly impossible to see. Sleeving the cylinders is a common practice for cylinders with minor cracks in them. However, sleeves are not really a good repair for cracks. The problem is that even with a sleeve in place, the crack can continue to grow and spread. Eventually, the crack may become large enough to show and cause problems with the surface of the block, or crankcase. Cracks in the cylinder (if they are between the cylinder and the water jacket?) can leak water into the cylinder, some of which will find its way down into the oil. However, there are many ways for water to get into the oil. Poor fitting head gasket, loose head bolts, condensation, or washing the car are among the common reasons!
If a block is structurally good, and the sleeves are properly installed, they should give many years and many miles of service!
Occasionally, a cracked cylinder can allow the sleeve to slide down a bit. It only has slide about a quarter of an inch (about 7mm) for the top ring on the piston to catch the top of the cylinder. When that happens, it makes a real mess of the engine really fast!
Just a few things more to consider.

[Allan]

If part of getting the car legal for road use means you have to have a working horn, yours may not work. It looks like a Magneto horn, and running it on a battery will not work. I guess that is the least of your worries!

Allan from down under.

[JTT3]

……………….:……….

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

While all of the issues you mention are real and should be addressed one day, there is nothing I see that should prevent this engine from running. This assumes you have good compression and have repaired the stripped head bolt holes. You might want to check the rod bearing clearances and perhaps remove a shim or two, if needed.

[TXGOAT2]

I hop that's an illusion. The crankshaft is a single plane crank, so all the throws should be in the same plane. An easy rough check would be to turn the crankshaft until either the front and rear or middle pair of pistons are on top center. They should reach top center at the exactly the same time. The other two should be on bottom center. Then turn the crank one half turn and see that the other pair also reach top center together.

[Scott_Conger]

It's all but certain that the crankshaft question is one due to the crazy lens they put in camera phones. I have a devil of a time taking a picture of a 3" long carb part which doesn't look big as a telephone pole in the foreground and a matchstick in the background (along with other distortions).

[Kerry]

Wayne.
If you have seen or had it happen to you that a sleeve even moves .001" let alone 7mm. then that engine machinist did not know what he was doing.

[Vonau]

Thanks for the reports

The crankshaft thing is an optical illusion. This is caused by the skewed connection of the crankshaft. If you look at the short, straight pieces in the picture, they are all parallel. But to be on the safe side, I laid down under the Ford for a moment.

I also solved the problem with the horn. The picture is from my previous owner when the cylinder head was removed for the first time.
I took over the car without the horn. Was probably dismantled because it didn't work........

I already got an original battery horn and overhauled it. Works flawlessly. In addition, a Bermuda Bell was installed on the vehicle. My children especially enjoy it.

I originally trained as an agricultural machinery mechanic and am therefore not a friend of any kind of tinkering. I was on the phone with a friend today. He works in a very good motor workshop near me. Making the cylinders would probably not be a problem. New valve seats would also have to be fitted. The valves are about the same oversize as the pistons and manufacturer unknown......

I see the problem with the Babitt bearings. It's probably difficult to find someone here who is familiar with it.

Furthermore, the costs are a risk for me before I have a road permit.

John, thanks for the tip from Bernhard Klingels. This might be a good starting point for me.

Greetings from Switzerland.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Wayne.
If you have seen or had it happen to you that a sleeve even moves .001" let alone 7mm. then that engine machinist did not know what he was doing.

Absolutely true, Kerry. I have heard of a couple over the years, probably because In conversation I would tell of the one I saw. And we know that there are a lot of wannabe machinists out there that do not know what they are doing or how to do it right.

Properly done, over-boring the cylinder is done leaving a lip or "shelf" at the bottom of the cylinder. Very careful machining and fitting is done keeping an "interference fit". Then a major thermal differential is used to install the cold sleeve inside the warm block resting exactly at the little lip at the bottom. If all is properly done? That sleeve will stay put for hundreds of thousands of miles!

The one I saw was over forty years ago now. A fellow had found it among a model T parts stash in an old barn, and taken it to a major swap meet for show and tell, not sale! He had it sitting on the back of his pickup truck just as it had been found, removed from car, inspection cover and head removed. I spent several minutes looking it over closely.
There was no lip/shelf at the bottom of the cylinders. The sleeve had apparently worked its way down just enough that the top ring popped out over the top edge of the sleeve while running. The piston then yanked the sleeve down a bit more before the piston broke off its top and continued down. On the return trip, the piston's remaining two rings caught the now lower top of the sleeve, and pulled it down around the connecting rod into the crankshaft. More than half the sleeve was broken into a lot of pieces. Bent and broken pieces of the sleeve had been left as found, and some were still inside the engine! Roughly a third of the sleeve, the top portion, was somewhat intact on the connecting rod.
Barn dirt indicated it had been sitting in the barn for several years, so we can only speculate when it had happened, or when the work was done?
One other cylinder had been sleeved also. It could clearly be seen that there was no lip under that sleeve, it extended slightly beyond the end of the cylinder. Although the remnant of the sleeve made examining the cylinder a bit tricky, I seem to recall checking it and confirming there was no lip in it either.
I suspect also likely that the fitting may not have been precise enough, likely too little interference fit. They probably didn't use (maybe didn't have the means/equipment?) enough thermal differential on assembly either. It may be that they did a lot of engines for the local farmers during the 1940s and 1950s? And maybe a lot of them worked well for many years of limited use. But this one made a big mess of itself!

[TXGOAT2]

A sleeve ought to have a lip to set on. It also needs the correct, very tight and uniform fit in the block in order to have proper heat transfer capabilities and to prevent any movement whatsoever, or any tendency to "inflate". Blocks can suffer from core drift during casting, internal corrosion and thermal strain in service, and the possibility of cracks, as well as problems with threads. Cylinder bores may have been re-bored off center, and excessive overbore reduces the deck area available for the head gasket to seat on and narrows the already narrow space separating the valve seats from the cylinder bores and each cylinder bore from the next. Some valve seats have been rusted or ground to the point that they are a poor bet for a good and lasting repair. Valve guides are sometimes reamed off center. Good T blocks can still be found, so I would hesitate to invest heavily in one with multiple issues.

[Vonau]

I found a report online about inserting cylinder liners and installing hardened valve seats https://www.modeltcentral.com/Model-T-F ... tions.html. I think that matches what you wrote.

According to my engine shop friend, it is common for us to use a top flanged cylinder liner as in this post https://old-timer.ch/ford_a/docu/Peter_ ... elgien.pdf on page 17 on a Model A engine. In addition, the liner is glued.

Does something speak against the waistband on the top of the Model T?

Is there a way to repair the valve guides if they are already oversized?
Can the dimension be determined with the valve cover removed without removing the valves?

greetings from Switzerland

[J and M Machine]

I found a report online about inserting cylinder liners and installing hardened valve seats https://www.modeltcentral.com/Model-T-F ... tions.html. I think that matches what you wrote.

According to my engine shop friend, it is common for us to use a top flanged cylinder liner as in this post https://old-timer.ch/ford_a/docu/Peter_ ... elgien.pdf on page 17 on a Model A engine. In addition, the liner is glued.

Does something speak against the waistband on the top of the Model T?

Is there a way to repair the valve guides if they are already oversized?
Can the dimension be determined with the valve cover removed without removing the valves?

greetings from Switzerland

Hello Beat:
Yes you can install the cylinder liners and valve guides. The flange type cylinder sleeve is a European design. in America we use straight sleeves and
leave step at bottom of cylinder.
Same goes for valve guides as those can be bored out and new ones installed to make it original size again.
There is actually someone in Aarau that is capable and knows these engines it is Martin Stammbach. m.stammbach@gmx.ch
He can direct you better than the chatroom can.

[Luke]

Beat,

I understand you want to get the official paperwork (road permit?) sorted before you spend much money on the car...

... so while I quite understand and agree with many of the comments here I think that if this were me I'd simply sort out the head stud issue (you may have fixed that already?), refit the head + sump pan etc and see if the motor will run sufficiently well to do what's needed for your test. This shouldn't take a lot of time or money and if it works well enough you'd be able to get the paperwork done, and maybe even run it for a bit following. If it didn't run well then it's not been a huge investment and you will know for sure there's nothing further that can be done without spending a lot more.

In doing that obviously you should check all the usual things (timing etc) before starting it, but I wouldn't get too bothered by the clearances you've measured. While people have discussed the clearances for reconditioned motors it should be remembered that an old motor, probably still running fine but maybe a little noisy, could well have vastly increased clearances yet be quite operational. Given what you've reported it might be worth putting some Irontite in the water, and maybe a slightly higher viscosity oil, but otherwise you could be pleasantly surprised with the result as is.

Another thing to comment on; over here a distributor fitted to a Model T commonly used comes from an early VW, given where you are it's possible this is the case for you too, maybe useful if you need new points at some stage. FWIW I prefer the original ignition/timer system (which almost certainly wouldn't have been bothered by the crankshaft end float) but as long as it's properly fitted and timed the dizzy should be ok.

Finally, if it were me I think ultimately I'd look at utilising another block. Sleeving etc is all very well, but as others have commented there are still Model T blocks available and even if you needed to import one from elsewhere it could be an option worth considering. Also, in my view you shouldn't need to fit hardened valve seats (assuming the existing seats are ok); remember there was no lead in the fuel Model T's were originally designed to run on...

Luke.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Beat,

I understand you want to get the official paperwork (road permit?) sorted before you spend much money on the car...

... so while I quite understand and agree with many of the comments here I think that if this were me I'd simply sort out the head stud issue (you may have fixed that already?), refit the head + sump pan etc and see if the motor will run sufficiently well to do what's needed for your test. This shouldn't take a lot of time or money and if it works well enough you'd be able to get the paperwork done, and maybe even run it for a bit following. If it didn't run well then it's not been a huge investment and you will know for sure there's nothing further that can be done without spending a lot more.

In doing that obviously you should check all the usual things (timing etc) before starting it, but I wouldn't get too bothered by the clearances you've measured. While people have discussed the clearances for reconditioned motors it should be remembered that an old motor, probably still running fine but maybe a little noisy, could well have vastly increased clearances yet be quite operational. Given what you've reported it might be worth putting some Irontite in the water, and maybe a slightly higher viscosity oil, but otherwise you could be pleasantly surprised with the result as is.

Another thing to comment on; over here a distributor fitted to a Model T commonly used comes from an early VW, given where you are it's possible this is the case for you too, maybe useful if you need new points at some stage. FWIW I prefer the original ignition/timer system (which almost certainly wouldn't have been bothered by the crankshaft end float) but as long as it's properly fitted and timed the dizzy should be ok.

Finally, if it were me I think ultimately I'd look at utilising another block. Sleeving etc is all very well, but as others have commented there are still Model T blocks available and even if you needed to import one from elsewhere it could be an option worth considering. Also, in my view you shouldn't need to fit hardened valve seats (assuming the existing seats are ok); remember there was no lead in the fuel Model T's were originally designed to run on...

Luke.

What he said...

[Vonau]

Hi

Thanks for your messages Thanks also to John for getting in touch. We've already phoned each other. He highly praised your work and talked about the engines he bought from you.

Today I checked the valve stems and the tappets.

The valve stems are 0.340" which is the largest oversize as far as I know.

The tappets 0.498" ........??
As far as I know, 0.467" is the biggest oversize?

What has this engine already experienced?

greetings from Switzerland
Beat Betschart

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

When you finally try to run this engine, be certain that you either have the proper wire attached to your generator cutout, or that you have the generator output terminal shorted to ground. Otherwise, you'll destroy your generator...

[Vonau]

Hello Jerry. I will definitely do that. But nothing will start that soon....

Greetings Beat

[Vonau]

Hi

I just dismantled the engine. I would now like to continue checking parts and the gearbox. I hope I can find some time for it in the next few days.
Now one more question: Can I dismantle the gearbox cover together with the Benedix and the starter or do I have to remove it first?

greetings from Switzerland

[DanTreace]

Remove the Bendix first from the rear of the trans cover, then remove the starter with its long shaft from the trans cover.

The long shaft runs near the magneto field coil ring, so that can hinder the lift.

Do get an online copy or print copy of Ford Service. It has pics and all instructions on tear down of the powerplant.

[speedytinc]

The hogs head with the starter attached can be removed as a unit. However it is quite unwieldy with the exrta starter weight.
You will probably need the starter off any way to replace worn low pedal cams or O ringing pedal shafts. Makes the job easier.
Its easier when the time comes to reinstall the H/H without the extra starter weight.

If you pull the starter before the cover, remove the bendix drive first. Many inexperienced guys thru the T's history have damaged good field coils trying to pull a starter with the bendix attached out thru the front.

[Vonau]

Hi

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am aware of the Benedix drive.
I had some free time today. So I removed the pig's head, oil pan and gear assembly to check other parts. You see some photos of my discoveries. What do you think of the condition?

-The magnetic coil assembly shows damage from the past.

-The flywheel ring gear has some wear.

-The slow drum and the reverse drum have axial play.

Thank you for your opinion.

greetings from Switzerland

[jab35]

Thanks for sharing your pictures. Have the magnet pole plates on flywheel been rubbing on the mag ring poles? It appears they have due to crankshaft endplay. Good luck with your project, jb

[Vonau]

Hi

No, the magneto plates did not rub. I measured the distance. it was around 0.4". With the crankshaft pushed towards the rear, it was 0.6". I don't think that would have worked well.

greetings from Switzerland