Very slow cranking

[John Codman]

On another thread (not mine) I commented that my '27 is so hard to crank that I can't. Even the starter cranks slowly. The battery is of sufficient capacity and is in excellent condition. In the thread that I mentioned, there were numerous suggestions about horrible things that could be wrong. Then someone suggested that I remove the spark plugs and crank it - Duh! Well today I finally pulled the plugs and tried the hand crank. It cranked over beautifully. The engine is not recently rebuilt and runs extremely well. I have trouble believing that with 4:1 compression it can be this hard to crank. I have had the head off for cooling passage inspection, and the engine was clean inside. I did install a new headgasket that was the same thickness as the one that I removed. The hard cranking existed before I fooled with the head. I have no reason to suspect that the engine has had any significant internal work. I'm getting low on ideas as to the slow (real slow) cranking. Any suggestions? I'd like to drive it more then I do, but I'm afraid to shut it off away from home, because I fear that at some point the starter will self-destruct.

[Mark Gregush]

With what sounds like good compression, which would mean good suction, unless it has vacuum leaks between the carb and block; couple of good pulls to prime you should only need to pull over top dead center to fire off and start esp. if you are running coils.

[John Codman]

With what sounds like good compression, which would mean good suction, unless it has vacuum leaks between the carb and block; couple of good pulls to prime you should only need to pull over top dead center to fire off and start esp. if you are running coils.

The engine is as Ford built it. The problem is that I can't hand crank it. I am not a 90 pound weakling, but I'm not Charles Atlas (dating myself) either.
For the record, the coils are fresh rebuilts from Ron Patterson. As I said, once I get the thing running, it runs beautifully.

[speedytinc]

With the plugs out you should have ZERO drag. Doing same in gear with one wheel up will confirm the amount/lack of clutch drag. With the plugs in are you having trouble hand cranking? When you had the head off did you notice high compression pistons?
Compression test?? A stock well built motor should show about 60#. My T has 95# compression. It is still easily hand cranked.

[Mark Gregush]

What I am saying is; an engine in good shape does not need "SPEED" to start. You have zero cranking speed when you get a free start.

[Flyingpiper59]

Polish every connection to a sparkle……just had a Model A with your problem….the culprit?
Bad grounding to the frame!

[Norman Kling]

I would suspect the bands are just a bit tight. Or the clutch drag combined with band compression is causing the problem. Try cranking with the car in neutral or high gear with the rear wheels jacked up. If it is much easier, one or more of the above is likely the cause.
Norm

[Charlie B in N.J.]

If you have one of those braided/woven ground straps on the battery lose it. Better yet see if it gets hot when cranking just to reassure yourself that it’s shot.

[Moxie26]

John... What weight engine oil are you using? ....10W30 cranks over a lot easier than a straight 30 or straight 40 weight.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I would suspect the bands are just a bit tight. Or the clutch drag combined with band compression is causing the problem. Try cranking with the car in neutral or high gear with the rear wheels jacked up. If it is much easier, one or more of the above is likely the cause.
Norm

Agreed. Try Norman's cranking suggestion to confirm whether or not the above is the cause.

[bobt]

How are you cranking? I actually don't crank but go from about 8:00 to 11:30 with 1/4 PULLS left hand. Never past 12:00. I hope this makes sense. Everyone has an opinion on how to start a T and this is mine and it works for me.

[Moxie26]

Your original post refers to slow cranking with the starter,.... Just wondering if you should really check your battery cables for the proper size to carry the amperage that the starter needs from your certified powerful battery.

[Norman Kling]

I went back and read your original post. Before you started to have this problem, had you ever tried to hand crank the engine? Maybe the problem is in the electrical starter and not the engine. If you know someone in your area who has a T which runs well, ask if he could demonstrate hand cranking and allow you to try turning his crank. it might just be that you are not familiar with hand cranking. You say it turns over easily with the spark plugs out, so that would indicate, maybe the problem is not in the engine or transmission, but is normal. If so, check the starting circuit from the battery to the starter. This would be cable sizes and types as well as corroded connections. Also check the condition of the battery itself. The copper strip type ground cable works better than the woven type. The surface where the ground connects to the frame must be clean metal without any paint or power coat Another thing which sometimes helps is to run a ground cable between the engine near the starter, to the frame around the area near the starter.Sometimes the contact between crankcase ears and frame are not enough to ground the starter. Last thing to check is the starter itself.
Norm

[John Codman]

For clarification purposes only: The car has had this issue since the first time i saw it. I use 10W30 oil. Jacking up either or both rear wheels make no difference in the slow cranking. In Neutral the car has less of a tendency to creep forward then some other Ts that I have driven. The pistons appear to be the ones that Ford installed at the factory. I have commented previously that my T spent a significant part of it's life living on a small island with no paved roads and less then five miles of unpaved roads. It may well be one of the lowest mileage Model T's that have not been stashed in a barn or shed for 30 years. To the best of my knowledge it has been operated more or less continuously; just not much. Like Steve Jelf, I live alone, but if I can find a second pair of hands (feet, actually), I will do a compression test. I thank y'all for your thoughts and suggestions. I forgot to mention that it does have the braided ground strap. I will check it for temperature.

[Norman Kling]

Being in Florida, humidity could also cause some corrosion in the starter switch, so check that out too.
Norm

[speedytinc]

You started out clear(I thought), that your T is hard to HAND crank. Once this problem is diagnosed/remedied, your ELECTRIC starting becomes a separate issue. A tight engine makes the starter motor work harder.
Is it possible that this T is so low mileage that it isnt broke in yet?
If your ELECTRIC starter turns slowly with the spark plugs out, you have an electrical/starter motor issue.
One thing @ a time.

[Cody Winters]

When I handcrank my model a I leave the throttle in the idle position, makes it turn on the crank easily. T's should do the same.

[speedytinc]

When I handcrank my model a I leave the throttle in the idle position, makes it turn on the crank easily. T's should do the same.

More red herrings.
So is your problem that the motor doesnt start running easily/quickley????

[Cody Winters]

It does, 1/4 turn of the engine and its running. I hand crank my A often since my starter sometimes likes to give me grief. Bendix jammed recently into the ring gear and I had to pull the starter out and crank it to finish my trip into town. main reason for me idling the throttle is to lower the quantity of air entering the cylinder, making it easier to crank. And to also lessen wear and tear on startup, letting the oil flow into all the bearings.

[TXGOAT2]

If you restrict the throttle, you may create manifold vacuum, which will make the engine harder to crank.

[John Codman]

To Norm Kling - The problem existed long before I moved to Florida.

To John K - Dang! I shooda thought to electric crank it with the plugs out! I guess that I'll be pulling the plugs again.

To Robert - I agree and that's the way that I hand crank a T (or any other car that needs to be hand-cranked).

[speedytinc]

When you do, lift one wheel.
Test in gear, in neutral & with the parking brake applied.
The idea is to test for possible areas putting extra drag on the motor while starting.

[John Codman]

Update: I pulled the plugs and cranked the engine with the starter. It cranks at about the speed that I would expect with the plugs in. I am going to carefully go through the starting circuit looking for voltage drop. If that doesn't yield results I guess that I will try to find someone who will go through the starter for me. I have had one on order from Lang's for at least a year, but they did tell me at the time that I ordered that they were having major starter supply problems. I don't hold the delay against them - I was warned.