California zero emission zones

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Here we go. Cali politicos are looking for information from classic car owners concerning how much they drive and how it will effect what they’re calling Emission Free Zones. The location and tendencies of the drivers of these vehicles according to a state survey obtained by the Daily Caller News Foundation. It concernes 1978 and older vehicles which won’t be allowed in these zones at all. All others, including newer clean vehicles will be allowed total access. Climate change is touted as the reason.

[Norman Kling]

I'm old enough to know that the climate has always been changing. It has been ever since the earth was created, and even if we ban all fossil fuel burning it will still change. Some of the methods to generate electricity also cause more pollution than natural gas or petroleum. It is just a form of dictatorship by those who think they know it all. Or those who wish to destroy our liberty. Back when I was in 6th grade our teacher told us that We were going into another ice age. The following winter in January, it snowed about a foot in Los Angeles where I lived. I never saw that much snow in the area since. Then we went into a period of Smog. It was like peeling onions in a smoked filled room. Could hardly keep your eyes open. Then government agencies were appointed to stop the pollution. They have been very successful, but like any government agency they don't want to lose their job when it is completed, so now they are trying to control the climate.
The only way to change things is to start at the top down and while we still have the right to vote, we must throw out the people in local, state and federal government who are imposing their will on the people.
Norm

[perry kete]

I'm so glad that the government is worried about pollution and emission problems

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[TWrenn]

Right on Perry! Were it not for the fact this is to stay "Model T oriented" I'd love to get on my soap box as to how this communist administration is destroying this country at breakneck speed.

[John Codman]

I consider myself to be an environmentalist. Having said that, I also consider myself to be a sensible person. Certainly the required pollution controls on modern cars have gone a long way towards cleaning up the air, but let's not get silly about it. My neighbor across the street burns grass clippings, branches, and just about anything that comes off his yard. It's legal here. I don't want to force others to breath my smoke so I don't collect grass clippings, and I have a small wood chipper that I use to get rid of branches. It is powered by a small Briggs and Stratton one-lunger that will run about three hours on a couple of quarts of gas. It's polluting the air. It has no computer! No catalytic converter! No fuel injection! If I lived in California they would probably want to ban it.

[Mark Chaffin]

CARB the California Air Resources Board is a bunch of ultra liberal environmental Nazis. Preoccupied with cow farts, camp fires, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if they passed legislation to euthanize our elderly to reduce CO2 emissions. They recently sent out a questionnaire regarding the Model T's I own. Looks like they will be trying to ban them from the roadway in the near future.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Another reason I moved to Idaho.

[Norman Kling]

The amount most of the old cars even from the 50's and 60's drive on the road today most likely produces less than pollution than it would take to trailer them to each event and to trailer them out of state for events where we could drive them. If I were not so old and the house so old and still tax control from proposition 13 I might even sell and move out of the state. However the same thing might happen in another state or nationally. We must stay and fight like good soldiers.
Norm

[Dan Hatch]

Seems I remember awhile back someone took their T to the emission test station and it passed better than a new car.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Dan, i believe that was posted on the forum a while back. Not surprisingly, I recall back in the 90s there was an article in a Packard Club publication that went into detail regarding emissions. The conclusion was essentially that the colder running pre-war engines were emitting less pollution than current models with all the "anti-smog" controls. Perhaps this still holds true.

[Cody Winters]

Do Not Comply. Simple. If they shut off the pump, run em on moonshine.

[John kuehn]

We had better be careful when we go to the outhouse. The excess gas from us poor folks and cows, babies, and the vapor from outhouses can’t be good. After all isn’t that what killed off the dinosaurs besides Model T’s?? And didn’t we just find out that 2+2 really does equal 5 ?? Come on folks get with the program!

[Bryant]

Zero emissions zones? How do you keep neighboring emissions from floating over into the NO zones? Now I want to take a T to the emissions station. In my state if you can’t plug into an OBD2 port you don’t have to test. Crazy times
Bryant

[1925 Touring]

Oh no!
For an 18 year old like me, this spells doom for the hobby.
I love these cars so much, not to mention old aircraft, farm shows, and my Job! (Aircraft maintenance)
Pretty soon there will be ev aircraft
THIS MAKES ME VERY MAD!

We all think about the future of the hobby, and how we need to promote it, but we all need to give this issue some serious thought.

[Cody Winters]

As a 21 year old this makes me mad too. I daily a 31 and am adding a T to my roster. I will never own any car made after 1931, so if they try to take my cars away, they will receive a 12ga slug and a @$$ whoopin' I will proudly daily my cars for the rest of my life and screw the haters.

[TRDxB2]

The State of California may soon be one emission free zone -

--

[brendan.hoban]

The reality.

Here in Australia I charge my Tesla 3 at home at a cost of 1.1 cents per kilometre. Our state government charges me 2.8c/km tax on top of that.

The average passenger vehicle here down under costs 23c in fuel per kilometre, tax built in.

In addition, servicing is musc less.

[Bryant]

I think the “reality” will soon be once everything would be “emissions free” the price of electricity will skyrocket. Maintenance costs are low now but when it comes time for a repair and it will, the cost will out weigh years of maintenance. Nobody will be able to work on there own vehicles due to proprietary software. only the licensed will be able to obtain and install. Somebody will get paid for all this and most will save nothing. Turn off the news and Keep playing and driving your T’s. they have gone through strange times before. I plan on it.
Bryant

[babychadwick]

Makes me glad I know have a green car, all you unlucky guys with your black T's

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[Arbs]

Do Not Comply. Simple. If they shut off the pump, run em on moonshine.

Moonshine is a renewable resource... sounds good to me. I'd need a locking gas cap though, especially during spring break.

[babychadwick]

Or a wood gasifier, offer a "dump" for all those yard trimmings and turn them into fuel. It would be a waste of good shine

[TXGOAT2]

When China takes over, the entire EPA will go to the re-education camps, and from there to the new Peoples' Cooperative Farms, where they will be assigned "entry level" duties, along with former able-bodied welfare recipients and younger homeless heroes of the streets.

[TXGOAT2]

all u haf to do is get a electric car with a solar cell! duh! defund exon!

[tdump]

Well the way I look at it, those folks that want to catch bovine emissions are more dangerous than the bull's manure it's self.
T's don't emit that much stuff, sitting in garages.and that is where they will be stuck if you folks don't stand up out there.And the jet stream carrys you folks issues all across the country, so you are our front lines, and from the looks of it,either you aint fighting or you are loosing miserably.

[John Codman]

One thing to consider is that the United States gets 60% of it's electrical power by the burning of fossil fuels. Electric cars tend to be heavier then the ICE cars that they replace. It simply has to consume more energy to move the heavier car then it would to move an equivalent ICE car the same distance. We need to step back and look at the whole picture.

[Craig Leach]

Was unable to find statistics for what countries have increased CO2 emissions but looking at the latest chart I found the counties not on this
chart produce 4 times the emissions the the US does and the Paris Acord gives the exemptions from the agreement!

It looks to me the US is doing more than the rest of the world is?
Craig.

[speedytinc]

Global warming is the new religion. The extreme extra costs are merely our penance to pay.
There is no thinking or intelligence involved or permitted to be interjected in the discussion. Facts are to be ignored.
The fools & crazies are in charge.

[John kuehn]

In other words it’s the same looney tune narrative of “everybody gonna die” if we don’t accept their odd ball truth.
Remember folks 2+2=5 or didn’t we already know it?

[Cody Winters]

I run my Model A on anything I can dump in the tank, T's will do the same. My A loves used motor oil at about 1/2 oz per gallon. runs great on it, old two stroke gas, anything. I make my own liquid fuel from yard debris and wood using a wood gasifier connected to a distillation system. it takes the creosote produced from the gasifying of wood, especially pine, and in the presence of hydrogen coming from the wood makes a hydrocarbon that can be refined into basically gasoline. it only costs me $0.20 per gallon to make. only reason it isn't free is the cost of matches to light the fire to make it and the little splash of marvel or seafoam into the mix to keep the engine clean. but one can do without any additives if you clean the carb out once every couple months or so. It's called biogasoline and I learned how to make it by watching this video. https://youtu.be/YGEzA-tbX8g?si=PXcnhEAqdQxFnYvm

[John Codman]

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that chart is. Graphing a total percentage of a base year would make sense; Finland emits only a small fraction of the CO2 that the United States does. Showing that they have only reduced their CO2 emissions a tiny bit when compared to the USA is meaningless.

[Mark Nunn]

Dan's and Rich's posts reminded me that a city near me had an emission testing event at a big shopping mall. Anyone could have whatever they drove tested. There was a winner for the lowest-polluting vehicle at the event. That was a restored 1951 Ford pickup with its original flathead V8.

[Luke]

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that chart is.

John,

Call me cynical but I'm reminded of Benjamin Disraeli, as attributed by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

While that graph/chart probably doesn't actually lie per se I suggest it could be easily misinterpreted or presented at times opportune for certain countries who may, er, choose not to present other equally useful facts alongside... That said, to be fair, if all the facts are examined it may be that the U.S. is doing a fair job at reduction, but without the complete dataset that graphic by itself doesn't serve much of a purpose, as you imply.

If one is really concerned about emissions then there are, of course, a number of factors that should be taken into account, not in the least how to fairly apply any reduction methodology. Perhaps the most purely fair is to assign a g/m3 limit on a per person per country basis, then work out their individual emission total (incl vehicle miles driven, food input/methane output etc), followed perhaps by an incentive/penalisation scheme.

There are various attempts at this on a country basis (see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_emission_trading) but as with many of these things they have introduced inequities and can be quite unfair in their application. On this latter comment I speak from experience, not just opinion

As for old cars; if it's determined that their number and possible emissions are significant in the grand scheme of things then the answer is simple: set a reasonable and logical limit and test them every few years. If they test ok you're good to go, if not then you've got the opportunity to remediate or park it up...

Luke.

[rnwilliams]

IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP PEOPLE. DO NOT COMPLY!

[John kuehn]

Moral of this is to vote NO in the voting booth!!!
Unfortunately some folks still think every few years things go back around. The trouble with that view is it’s happening quicker and faster than it use to be and eventually things go to far and the people are asleep when it does. Think about it!!

[m_p_dean@yahoo.com]

So...let's say that I'm restricted from driving my T in Zone A, but Big Brother says that I'm cool to drive in Zone B. And let's say that I do 100 miles a month, I just shifted to Zone B. What makes Big Brother think that my T is creating fewer emissions in Zone B than it would have in Zone A? Same car, same 100 miles.
It's like smoking sections and non-smoking sections in a restaurant. The air moves around, pretty soon the smoking and non-smoking sections have the same smoky air.
I think maybe Big Brother is smoking the good stuff.

[TXGOAT2]

Smoking pot drives AGW as well as threatening the financial underpinning of our Peoples' Government-Healthcare Complex!
Pot-free Zones and Brownie-only Zones* are a must!
* Pot Brownies must be properly certified non-gas oven sourced!

[Jay In Northern Ca.]

California is where the inmates run the asylum.

[John kuehn]

Hi Jay ! You’ve got that right.. Here in Texas we have been getting California folks for the last few years and do they have a story to tell!

[tdump]

I guess california forgot about that mt saint helens that blew her top and the dust came ALL the way over here.

[Duey_C]

Fantastic thread! Many voices of reason. Hehe, hard to tell sometimes who's tongue is in their cheek.
will powers let it survive? One point and not to argue:
Aren't space rockets Hydrogen Peroxide fueled? About 93% pure? I forget. Pretty clean, I thought.
A T at an emissions test: Don't be scared, turn the carb down a little...

[babychadwick]

It's all irrelevant, the magnetic field is dropping (current estimate is 30-35%what it was in 1800). Northern lights are being seen in new reds and pinks. Sometimes as far south as FL! NOAA can't update the moving poles fast enough. Just how accurate is that compass built into a 20 year old car? Earthquakes are happening daily hundreds of miles below the crust. The sun drives the weather and our field is it's primary interaction.

But go ahead and get an electric car, that will solve everything. . .

Meanwhile I'll be driving a T when the grid crashes.

[John Codman]

Makes me glad I know have a green car, all you unlucky guys with your black T's
Screenshot_20230928-073359~2.png

My '27 Touring car T is also green.

Dan,
I would expect that a T would emit little or no NOX, but the CO and HC would to a certain extent, be up to the driver who controls the mixture. If he/she is willing to run their T on the lean side, it probably would be a relatively low-emission car. If the driver ran it too lean, the CO and HC would be fine, but NOX, which is primarily caused by high combustion temperatures, might rear it's ugly head.

[TXGOAT2]

I don't think you'd ever see NOX unless you had detonation. A hot engine running lean with tight rings and valves would be low to moderate on HC, assuming no missing. A cold engine or rich mixture would aggravate CO, unless Calikornia miracle blend gasoline prevented it.

[TRDxB2]

Hummm... Zero emissions zone in California what's does that mean?

NONE of the following would be allowed then
Tiki Lamps, smoking weed, Vaping, cows, fire pits, charcoal/propane/natural gas Bar-B-Que grills, fast food chains/restaurants/homes venting cooking fumes to the outside, human flatulence, forest fires, politicians, sewage treatment plants, landfills, gas mowers/chainsaws/etc, air fresheners, air purifiers that emit ozone, hair spray, gluing or painting anything, etc

[tdump]

Be careful Frank,you might blow their circuits explaining the facts.
It may not be a bad place if the politicians can't go there, at least there would not be any hot air.
Vegetarians couldn't go as they would be so happy it could accidentally cause them to experience a trouser cough ruining 30+ years living a emissions life holding in all their bean gas.

[T4Tom]

You folks sure get worked up over things that are not happening in YOUR state!

Does the old saying "As California goes, so goes the nation" worry you?

[TXGOAT2]

Things are happening that should not be happening anywhere in the USA.

[Norman Kling]

If Gavin Newsom becomes president, yes it would bother me. He is also related to Nancy Pelosi.
Norm

[tdump]

Yes Tom, what happens in california does bother me although I am on the east coast.
I always blame it on the jet stream carrying the ______ all the way over here. Once california gets a law passed,like the 20 bucks for flipping burgers, all the other states look at that and some people will think, Hey if they can do it so can we! and there it goes,spreading like a virus.
And the "vaccine" for that particular virus is getting weaker by the day, the ballot.

[Bryant]

When most packaging labels read “known to cause cancer by the state of California” and every emission law in other states are based on California emissions standards I would say yes we might worry about what there up to.
Bryant

[TXGOAT2]

California would have been a wonderful place to live in the 1920s.

[John Codman]

My mother used to say "90% of what you worry about never happens". I would like to think that even California will not try to slay that Ant with a piledriver. That sort of thing ain't happenin' in Florida. I am not planning to move to California, so as far as I am concerned they can do whatever they want.

[tdump]

No John,california won't try to slay the ant with a pile driver. They will instead tax and regulate the ant until it passes away from stroke.

[Kevin Pharis]

It doesn’t matter what we tell those radicalized elitists about how we use our cars. They will undoubtedly perceive that we maliciously waste potential homeless housing real estate to store these minimally used luxury possessions for the sole purpose of deviously burning toxic substances and endangering the public roadways while in route to consume cancer causing methane emitting animal exploiting obesity causing dairy deserts. No doubt we will be declared a danger to society and the planet!

Surely it is our civic duty to comply with the safety and cleanliness standards of the new regime. These standards dictate that we forfeit of all of our deemed dangerous worldly possessions at the nearest state regulated recycling facility, properly sorted, for no reimbursement, or else. We then must deplete our unjust horde of ethnically and socially privileged life savings on “approved” replacement possessions provided by a state appointed monopoly corporation. These new state approved possessions will be wifi equipped to improve our lifestyle by monitoring and reporting our health condition, conversations, spending habits, media consumption, and GPS location at all times.

I can’t wait for the future…!

[speedytinc]

No John,california won't try to slay the ant with a pile driver. They will instead tax and regulate the ant until it passes away from stroke.

Gee, thats what they do to the producing citizens now to give to the non producers. That sounds vaguely familiar to communism.
Don't forget all the FEES that aren't really taxes?

[tdump]

Kevin, when I was young, I waited on the future,I was told it would be great. This sure aint the future that I was told about.

[Norman Kling]

Every generation has it's dreams and desires. I was born in the middle of the Great Depression. In those days the family was very close. Many of us lived within walking distance of each other. The older generation had seen the collapse of their business and lost their homes. We had dinner with my grandparents and two uncles and their families almost weekly on my dad's side of the family. On my mother's side we were also in walking distance of one of her sisters and her fiance lived a block away with his mother and brother. So we visited with them quite often. Her sister lived for a while with us. And a brother lived within an hours drive. We met with his family at Christmas and with my dad's family for Thanksgiving. They used to sing "Happy Days are Here again". Then WW 2 broke out and many cousins and brothers went to the military. My dad was an Auxiliary Police and Uncle was Air Raid Warden and another Uncle was Auxiliary Fireman. Those who didn't go to war, worked in Aircraft industry which was big in Southern California. Then they sang "There'll be Blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover, tomorrow when the world is Free" The last part of the 1940's were pretty good years. Then the "Cold War" and the "Neuculiar race" Then several stalemate wars and never had peace for long after WW 2 which our side fought to win. Now we are in a war of philosophys. This too will pass and a new generation will see things they never thought would happen. I won't be here to see it, but some of my children and grandkids will see a world they would never have expected.
Norm

[TRDxB2]

When most packaging labels read “known to cause cancer by the state of California” and every emission law in other states are based on California emissions standards I would say yes we might worry about what there up to.
Bryant
[/quote
I realize the legal necessity for most packaging labels to read “known to cause cancer by the State of California”, but I have to wonder if the cancer is caused by the State of California.

[John kuehn]

Folks the cancer are the ideas coming out of Callifunny for several years. The trouble is it’s slowly but surely spreading. More than a few folks are just turning away from the obvious to ignore it and that’s sad.
Indifference and not voting at all and to keep voting because your old friends, parents and tradition did won’t change unless you go to the other direction which can change things from wishful thinking to really make a difference.

And by the way there isn’t a rush from other parts of the country to move there. It’s just the opposite. Folks that can are moving to less crazier states and locations and have been the last few years. And we wonder why they are.

[babychadwick]

You can vote for a little bad or a lot of bad, it's your choice for it to come fast or slow. I saw the downfall of my CA town and have seen the same thing happening everywhere I have lived (ID, FL, and TN). Perhaps people will wake up and stop it if it happens faster? Sort of frog in the water. What needs to be stopped is people feeling they have a right to tell you how to live.

[tdump]

I used to say that when I made it to Heaven I was going to have a good stern talk with Superman about his stopping Lex Luthor from making a new coast line!

[Norman Kling]

We can stop the bad things people are doing, but even though some think they can change the climate or the weather, they can't stop it. Other places have more Tornados Hurricanes, or Flooding. But there is always something wrong about a place. We can do something about the politics, by throwing the bums out!
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

The congress has finished it's latest shoddy little "ceiling" floorshow, and is right back to unlimited taxing, regulating, borrowing, and spending. Liberty retreats as tyranny advances, and opportunity continues to wither.

[daveclause]

CARB the California Air Resources Board is a bunch of ultra liberal environmental Nazis. Preoccupied with cow farts, camp fires, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if they passed legislation to euthanize our elderly to reduce CO2 emissions. They recently sent out a questionnaire regarding the Model T's I own. Looks like they will be trying to ban them from the roadway in the near future.

"Soylent Green"

[Tourabout]

I’ve been wanting see that movie.

[TXGOAT2]

Send in the Scoops!

[Jay In Northern Ca.]

If 15 miles of the Pacific coast slid into the Pacific Ocean California would no longer be a WACKO Blue state!!!

[TXGOAT2]

Referendum Proposition: Cede L.A. County to Mexico.

[Norman Kling]

Jay, that would not be good for the low lying areas such as Venice, Florida, Netherlands, Lousiana, your own area Sacramento Bakersfield to Redding. parts of Texas etc. because if it slid into the ocean it would cause more sea level rise than "global warming". I would have coast front property! Our altitude is around 2,000'
Norm

[tdump]

I’ve been wanting see that movie.

Wait a little longer, you might get a "birds eye" view.
If vintage car owners haven't got the telegram by now that their hobby is on the chopping block they never will.
And all things, jay leno,with his money and collection, doesn't seem to be in the picture at all. You would think we would turn on the news 1 day to see the headline "Jay Leno moves to Wyoming" or something.

[John Codman]

When most packaging labels read “known to cause cancer by the state of California” and every emission law in other states are based on California emissions standards I would say yes we might worry about what there up to.
Bryant

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying. If you are saying that all of the states automatically adopt all California emission laws, I do not regret having to inform you that they do not. 17 states (counting Washington, DC) have adopted California emissions laws. The rest do not. If you are saying that other states find it less time-consuming and expensive to look at the laws that California has already written and passed, then it would be to start from scratch, I agree with you. I also don't see anything wrong with that.

[TRDxB2]

I’ve been wanting see that movie.

Wait a little longer, you might get a "birds eye" view.
If vintage car owners haven't got the telegram by now that their hobby is on the chopping block they never will.
And all things, jay leno,with his money and collection, doesn't seem to be in the picture at all. You would think we would turn on the news 1 day to see the headline "Jay Leno moves to Wyoming" or something.

Elon Musk moved to Texas & took the TESLA plant with him - and that was shocking

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Everyone here has heard the old adage “I don want to know what’s coming”. I’m there now and classic cars are the top of the iceberg.

[tdump]

Everyone here has heard the old adage “I don want to know what’s coming”. I’m there now and classic cars are the top of the iceberg.

Yes, I can't help but wonder what it will be next? It seems somewhere in our history something was written about the "right to pursue happiness" For some people,happiness is taking it away from others

[StevenS]

If 15 miles of the Pacific coast slid into the Pacific Ocean California would no longer be a WACKO Blue state!!!

So sad but this is true. This is even more sad but true.

[TXGOAT2]

We'd ALL better come together and vote as Americans for an American Congress, before America becomes extinct.

[TXGOAT2]

It's pretty clear who is feeding off of whom, isn't it?

[Norman Kling]

If the biggest electric vehicle producer moved to Texas, the Lone Star state will soon adopt similar laws.
Norm

[Susanne]

I'm trying to wrap my head around something...

How is all the political bullshit on this thread related to Model T's?

The ZEV zones are problematic to us old car people, but then it becomes a "We hate you because you're in a blue state" thread.

THIS is why we packed up and left - because everyone so in love with their "WE HATE YOU" nonsense has your country circling the drain, and you're hauling out the sewer auger and plunger to get it down there faster.

I'm really grateful to be a part of a great hobby. I'm not grateful when people use it to play their "I hate you because you don't think exactly like me" nonsense.

Nuff said.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Well the original post is political but I get your point.

[John Codman]

To comment on another's previous post: The Earth's magnetic field has declined in strength by about 9 to 10% in the last 200 years. The magnetic poles have always been moving; aviation charts have both magnetic variation and magnetic deviation on them. I presume that maritime charts are the same.
The deviation and variation numbers are different on current charts then they were 30 years ago, and those charts have different numbers then those of 30 years before that. This has nothing to do with human activity, and it's nothing to get our panties in a wad about.

[Norman Kling]

John,
Are you sure it is not caused by humans? Maybe the Model T magneto is causing it Or it could even be caused by the magnetic pull of the electric motors in EV's
Norm

[tdump]

I'm trying to wrap my head around something...

How is all the political bullshit on this thread related to Model T's?

The ZEV zones are problematic to us old car people, but then it becomes a "We hate you because you're in a blue state" thread.

THIS is why we packed up and left - because everyone so in love with their "WE HATE YOU" nonsense has your country circling the drain, and you're hauling out the sewer auger and plunger to get it down there faster.

I'm really grateful to be a part of a great hobby. I'm not grateful when people use it to play their "I hate you because you don't think exactly like me" nonsense.

Nuff said.

Uh I think the reason all this political bovine excrement is on this thread is the very simple fact that ever aspect of our lives is DIRECTLY affected by politics .Sadly it has taken a direct jab in the gut for some folks to realize that. .
Politicians are the 1's that make the laws we have to abide by.. And some of the laws they are making or considering to make, DIRECTLY affect the Americans right to pursue happiness in the old car hobby. California is the most known for this type thing, And the ideas and laws they pass spread like a cancer all over the country.
Hate is the last word I would rather use, more of a disappointment that a entire states population just lays down for the lion to eat it's meal without at least trying to give it a upset stomach.

[TXGOAT2]

Elon is already here. (Austin, of course) So are NASA and the Military and the Federal Reserve and the FBI and all the rest.
Jet fighters often fly around here. Free air show. I have the satisfaction of knowing that those are our planes.

[babychadwick]

To comment on another's previous post: The Earth's magnetic field has declined in strength by about 9 to 10% in the last 200 years. The magnetic poles have always been moving; aviation charts have both magnetic variation and magnetic deviation on them. I presume that maritime charts are the same.
The deviation and variation numbers are different on current charts then they were 30 years ago, and those charts have different numbers then those of 30 years before that. This has nothing to do with human activity, and it's nothing to get our panties in a wad about.

True nothing to do with human activity. The poles have always wandered but in the past few decades that "wander" has turned into a straight line. Both poles are actually heading for the same location which is opposite the south Atlantic anomaly where the magnetic field is particularly weak. Regarding charts there it an annual adjustment what I was referring to is the printed adjustment/estimate was insufficient due the poles moving faster than predicted requiring notices sent to correct the miscalculation. This is the same reason airports worldwide are having to renumber their runways. Regarding the magnetic field drop it has shown rather than a strait line to be more closer to resembling an inverted exponential curve. I would have to check but it was like 5% drop in 150 years then 5% in 50 so an increasing drop/year. Odds are good of a natural event like the Carrington resulting in our Ts being one of the few running cars.

[tdump]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/th ... =U531&cvid

It seems the craziness has spread,

[1925 Touring]

Listen to this YouTube video regarding how" climate change is so simple and we can all change it by cutting back and reducing emissions..."
Then a man comes on and shows how it really works. Its not that simple!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y564PsKvNZs

[TRDxB2]

When its starts to get colder will thy reintroduce fossil fuels & cows?

[John Codman]

Global warming is always a dangerous subject because so many of us are locked into our beliefs (Don't bother me with facts, I've made up my mind). The Earth is getting warmer; it seems reasonable that people have something to do with climate change, but is this change real and permanent or is it part of a natural cycle? I don't have the answer to that. I do think that there are steps that we can take that will benefit us directly, and at the same time save us money. The change from incandescent to LED household lighting fulfills both objectives. Insulated glass windows will help keep your home cooler or warmer as you desire, and save energy which will benefit your wallet. I had a hybrid water heater installed - when set on economy mode it uses one fifth of the electric resistance heater that it replaced. It's more expensive, but I'm just about at the break-even point right now, so I get just as much hot water at a small fraction of the cost of operating the old one. I'm not going to change the world all by myself, but if I can save money and possibly have at least a modest benefit to the planet, why wouldn't I? I'm still going to take the T for a ride once in a while, though.

[TXGOAT2]

Since long before James Watt's improved steam engine and Franklin's ingenious stove, people have been striving to reduce fuel and other inputs and improve performance and efficiency of animals, plants, structures, manufacturing, and machinery. This often has the happy side effect of reducing emissions and other demands upon Nature in various ways. Sailing ships and steam locomotives, among countless other things, large and small, have reached and continue to reach amazing levels of development, wherever people have the liberty and capital to develop and apply practical innovations.
Genuine progress languishes where-ever tyranny prevails, including those places where assorted crackpots rule by edict, mandate, and injunction. Mao's China, Soviet Russia, Castro's Cuba, and North Korea are recent examples. There are many others, both contemporary and historical.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Hear that strange high pitched spinning sound? It’s more obvious if you put your ear to the floor. Hear it now? That’s the Founding Fathers spinning in their graves. We need principled, clear headed individuals on both sides actively figuring out what is best for our country as a whole, while supporting our freedoms and tradition. A functional, rational, two party, debating, pro American government is all anybody really asks for.

[TXGOAT2]

The People must discipline and regulate the government. It will not regulate itself. We have the lawful means to do that.

[John Codman]

I agree with txgoat's posts on this subject. We already do have the ability to change the direction of our country when necessary - it's called the election. If people would vote wisely, instead of happily supporting whoever tells us what we want to hear, we will be fine. Whether that will ever happen is another matter, though.

[John kuehn]

The problem is misinformed and low information voters will believe any thing you tell them if you tell it to them long enough. Hopefully in the next election people will take a good long luck at what’s going on and at what’s happened in the last few years. Climate change is one thing but other big issues are getting bigger than climate change that can really set us back and that’s where all the problems are.

[Norman Kling]

The only way we will get honest elections is voter ID and hand counting of ballots with witnesses and hand talley as well. The AI can change things and computers can be rigged.
Norm

[John Codman]

Norman - we have had that for decades.

[tdump]

Thankfully after being voted for twice and knocked down by a judge at least once,we finally got voter id in my state of NC. I will honestly feel a tad better about my efforts on election day now.

[babychadwick]

With 2 choices people will vote for a because they are not as bad as b. We are in a sad state because regardless you get someone bad in office, less bad is still bad. Wouldn't it be refreshing for someone to actually earn your vote?

[Kevin Pharis]

Here in califunny… the ding dongs historically vote for the familiar face. Ever wonder why we seem to always have a governor with the same last name or movie star in office…? Sometimes less worse than others, but always with some connection to hollyweird or San franpsycho. Unfortunately on Election Day, all the conservative voters are busy packing their moving trucks…

[John kuehn]

So true. They’ve been coming to Texas and other states more often and it’s not for the weather. I think they call it moving to more normal places that aren’t so “funny”.