Missfire

[TimCarlson92]

Good evening everyone!
I have a 1924 Coupe that I haven't had very long. It's had a misfire since I purchased it (about a month ago). I have replaced the spark plugs, that didn't fix it. I have replaced the coils as well and still has not seemed to fix the problem. Where do I go from here? It'll intermittently fire correctly and then not.
Does the coil box need some attention? All of the tabs seem to be healthy and normal.
Is it the timer?
Any direction would be greatly appreciated and input and guidance on the timer if that's the next route I have to go.
Thanks again, everyone!

[Rod]

What type of timer do you have? Have you removed it for cleaning and inspection?

[speedytinc]

What type of timer do you have? Have you removed it for cleaning and inspection?

Timer is the first thing to look @.

[John kuehn]

If you have a garage park your T inside and turn the lights off and of course leave the door open. At night you might see if there is a wire or connection that it arcing or loose while it’s running.
This might help find a short or and arc.

[TimCarlson92]

Just got back into the house from the shop. Here are some photos of the timer after I took the housing off and cleaned it up. I noticed a lack of any type of lubricant and TONS of metal shavings. I cleaned it out a bit and took some photos. I do not know what kind it is, you'll have to forgive me as I am new to this. This is my first model T.
With the little research I've done, and just common sense, this looks pretty...not okay.

[TimCarlson92]

Also, I wear gloves, yes. Hard habit to break. I'm a medic lol go easy on me.

[Rod]

I recommend purchasing a new timer. If you can afford it the best timer is a electronic solid state one. Next best is a brush type and lastly is the standard roller timer.

[Norman Kling]

I have Anderson timers on two of my T's and the third one has an older New Day timer. They don't need much maintenance and work very well.You also need to check the coil box for arcing. This happens when the spark plug gets bad and sometimes the spark will jump to ground. So check for carbon traces on the wood of the coil box.
Norm

[Norman Kling]

If you get an electronic timer, be sure to have a good mechanical timer along when on tour, Just in case! I like to have a few spare good coils and spark plugs on hand too.
One more thing concerning misfiring. Does it misfire going uphill or on level? Sometimes the fuel in the tank drops and especially if you have a gros jet in the carburetor, it might cause the fuel level in the carburetor to get a little low. Or another thing, the compression is highest on open throttle, and when pulling a hill, if you have a weak spark plug, it could misfire going uphill.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Make sure there is no metal shavings behind the insulator ring. Oil the roller & put it back on. See if the mis is gone.
If it runs OK do so..... (while you wait for a new timer.)

Let the "best" timer debate commence.

[Oldav8tor]

Nothing wrong with gloves - I frequently wear gloves when working on greasy / dirty items.

I'd say the timer could be the source of your problem. Tip Top Timers of Spokane Valley make quality New Day and Anderson reproductions. Give Mark Hutchinson a call and talk it over...‭(509) two-two-zero-0892‬

I've used a New Day with great success but everybody has their favorites.

The suggestion to run the engine in the dark and look for arcing is a good one. If your coil box still has wood liners they have been known to develop carbon tracks <viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38750> which can be resolved by replacing the wood with a plastic kit. Switches have also been known to have contacts that needed cleaning or replacement. When you say you got new coils I assume you had them rebuilt and adjusted. If not, you need to do that. FWIW - it's always smart to carry a couple of spare coils.

Every T owner experiences "teething pains" with a new car. Good luck!

[TimCarlson92]

Nothing wrong with gloves - I frequently wear gloves when working on greasy / dirty items.

I'd say the timer could be the source of your problem. Tip Top Timers of Spokane Valley make quality New Day and Anderson reproductions. Give Mark Hutchinson a call and talk it over...‭(509) two-two-zero-0892‬

I've used a New Day with great success but everybody has their favorites.

The suggestion to run the engine in the dark and look for arcing is a good one. If your coil box still has wood liners they have been known to develop carbon tracks <viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38750> which can be resolved by replacing the wood with a plastic kit. Switches have also been known to have contacts that needed cleaning or replacement. When you say you got new coils I assume you had them rebuilt and adjusted. If not, you need to do that. FWIW - it's always smart to carry a couple of spare coils.

Every T owner experiences "teething pains" with a new car. Good luck!

Thank you! I purchased them from Langs, the description said that they were sent adjusted and what not. The coil box looked clean when I checked it out, not really knowing what I was looking for I did notice it was very clean and nothing stood out as appearing to be abnormal. I was going to return the four coils I replaced to get the core charge back, but I think I'll keep them. I like to collect things lol Any chance you could direct me to some literature or videos on how to replace a timer appropriately? Will Mark be able to help with that?
I'm enjoying this T so far and am looking forward to adding more!

[Oldav8tor]

Tim,
I can't tell you much about installing timers other than New Days. It's pretty obvious - the cap shows which color wire goes to which contact. You just have to route the wires so they don't interfere when the cap is rotated.

Hopefully a previous owner replaced the original felt camshaft seal with a neoprene one and discarded the brass plate that went with the felt one. It's easy to do and might be something to consider if it hasn't been done.

You install the brush over the camshaft, holding it in place with a little pin that comes with the kit. There is a special washer that slips over the pin and holds it in place, then you tighten the nut over that. If the hole for the pin goes all the way thru the camshaft there is the possibility of installing the brush 180 degrees off from it's proper position. If the hole doesn't go all the way thru then no problem.

At this point it might be smart to check the timing. This guide from Steve Jelf works really well. https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

FWIW, google has indexed our forum going back years. Put your questions in and a ton of information will appear.

Best of luck, don't be afraid to ask for help or advice....the folks on this forum are the best!
Tim (there are several of us.....)

[John kuehn]

Hi Tim
When a guy is new to the Model T world T you will find owners have their favorite Timers, favorite oil, and favorite transmission band material among other things!

For me the reproduction New Day timers are pretty good. I have 3 T’s. 2 with New Day timers and 1 with the Anderson timer. They all work fine for me but as mentioned in other posts each has a favorite.
Snyder’s makes a good roller timer that lots of people use too.

Your roller timer needs to be replaced. A good cleaning and using a light grease may get it to run OK and you can try it and see. Believe it or not “wayback when” owners would use a rat tail file and file the inside contacts smooth then go around the entire timer to level and smooth it out. Some would call it a farm fix but it would work for a while! Good luck.

[Rod]

Without causing a debate on timers, here are your choices:

Electronic timer with no maintenance required
https://modeltetimer.com/shop/ols/products/i-timer

Brush type
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3221ND.aspx

Flapper type
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3221ANCO.aspx

Roller timer
Search Ebay

[jiminbartow]

Those deep scratches inside your timer could cause the roller to bounce and are almost certainly the source of your misfire. I purchased my roller type timer from Snyder’s. It looks just like the original, is well made, is made in the USA and my T, which I have had for 53 years and has used a half dozen different types of timers over the years, has never run better. I highly recommend it. Part #T-3165, $69.95. I lubricate mine with a mixture of Vaseline thinned with 3 in 1 oil wiped around the contacts ring with my finger. Be careful of the oil or grease you use and be sure it does not contain conductive (electrical) elements such as graphite or molybdenum or it will ground out. It needs to be totally non-conductive on Model T electrical components. Jim Patrick

[TimCarlson92]

Hello, everyone! Just to give an update on this. I have ordered a replacement timer. I actually purchased an ANCO from Lang's and one of the roller timers from Snyders. I figured it wouldn't hurt to have another one on hand and I'll eventually get to test out the different styles for myself. I do not want to buy an electronic timer because I'm the type of person who likes to have things as close to original as possible (I'm the same way with the victrolas and Edison cylinder players that I have owned and rebuilt).
With this in mind, some of the wiring is not "original and has been cut into, spliced and mildly Frankensteined. So, I've purchased all new wiring from langs and I'm going to rewire the entirety of the car. I've found some schematics but I'm more than willing to take any other information or input for replacing the wiring. It's a 1924 Coupe.

Last but not least, after inspecting the coils that I replaced, I did not need to. The ones I had in the car had already been replaced with refurbished ones. I'm hanging on to them so if anyone needs to borrow one to test out their coils for potential replacement, I'd be more than willing to help out and ship them to you. I have four!

Thanks again, everyone!

[Moxie26]

Tim..... Looking at ignition coils and observing physical qualities will not assure correct electrical settings. Any physical pressure to the point assemblies on top of a coil will change the electrical values and output ...Equally, cranking Edison Amberola springs will not assure complete proper speed or complete playback of a cylinder record. Even though the spring is in the machine, after many years, it will become weak.... and this is similar to internal condenser capabilities and coil point settings. Even though someone may have told you that the coils were redone, it wouldn't hurt to have them electronically checked for proper firing.... My Edison Amberola 50 sounds a lot better with the two new spring barrels just replaced with new springs by Wyatt Marcus who lives in the Rochester, NY area.

[Norman Kling]

I would not use an electronic timer with magneto. The magneto has alternating current of different voltage and frequency varying with the speed of the engine. It works very well with the mechanical timer and coils. If you use an electronic timer run it on battery only.
Norm

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

Anderson Timers on 99% of the cars done here, never had a problem. I'm sure you know but I'll point it out anyway - you need a coil tester to test coils. Just because they spark or buzz doesn't mean they are set up right.

[TimCarlson92]

Tim..... Looking at ignition coils and observing physical qualities will not assure correct electrical settings. Any physical pressure to the point assemblies on top of a coil will change the electrical values and output ...Equally, cranking Edison Amberola springs will not assure complete proper speed or complete playback of a cylinder record. Even though the spring is in the machine, after many years, it will become weak.... and this is similar to internal condenser capabilities and coil point settings. Even though someone may have told you that the coils were redone, it wouldn't hurt to have them electronically checked for proper firing.... My Edison Amberola 50 sounds a lot better with the two new spring barrels just replaced with new springs by Wyatt Marcus who lives in the Rochester, NY area.

I'm about three hours from Rochester. Nice Amberola you have there! Replacing main springs is a blast, that sometimes feels like opening one of those old snake in a can gag toys. Let me rephrase my wording then, I have four coils! I'll check them to make sure that they're all functioning correctly and then I will loan them out to folks.

[John kuehn]

You mentioned the wiring being in really bad shape and pieced together saying it’s been frakensteined together. That’s a big sign to rewire your 24 Coupe! What’s happened is it may have the remains of the original wiring patched up and I don’t know that but whatever it is it’s got to go!
The battery cables may need changing too. Old cables do get hard and brittle insulation.
When you get your new timer use the wiring diagram and start with no.1 from the coil box and do 1 wire at a time. Same thing replacing the ignition switch wiring. It’s not hard to do and take your time. You will be surprised what new wiring will do for a T.
Is the coil box original or has it had the wood replaced or has the old wood been replaced with the improved coil box material that’s popular to use. That will come if it’s necessary after the new wiring been installed. Good luck!

[TimCarlson92]

You mentioned the wiring being in really bad shape and pieced together saying it’s been frakensteined together. That’s a big sign to rewire your 24 Coupe! What’s happened is it may have the remains of the original wiring patched up and I don’t know that but whatever it is it’s got to go!
The battery cables may need changing too. Old cables do get hard and brittle insulation.
When you get your new timer use the wiring diagram and start with no.1 from the coil box and do 1 wire at a time. Same thing replacing the ignition switch wiring. It’s not hard to do and take your time. You will be surprised what new wiring will do for a T.
Is the coil box original or has it had the wood replaced or has the old wood been replaced with the improved coil box material that’s popular to use. That will come if it’s necessary after the new wiring been installed. Good luck!

I have all new wiring ready to be installed, just waiting on the timers to arrive so I can take a day and do it all at once. The coil box still has wood panels in it, I was thinking about refurbishing the coil box as well. I can't tell if it'r original or not, but it looks clean. All of the connections in the box appear to be in good shape and not flattened out. I figured I'd start with the wiring and then refurbish the coil box later on this winter. I have been eyeing up the wooden replacement kit from Lang's as I'd like to keep the care as true to its original manufacturing as possible. Thank you for your kind words!

[John Codman]

When I bought my T nine years ago, the first thing (second thing, actually) that I did was to order a complete wiring harness from Lang's. The original harness was in bad shape, and I have seen several collector cars burn due to bad wiring. Lang's harness fit perfectly and all of the color codes were correct. It appeared to be of excellent quality. I don't know if they are still using the same supplier, but if so, you should be happy with it. FWIW: Be sure that you know the proper routing of the wires. You have said that the wiring has been "Frankensteined", do not assume that the existing wiring is routed correctly.

[John kuehn]

Another point about replacement Model T wiring besides the correct color is the size of the eyes on the wiring. A while back a supplier used the pretty much correct colors but the eye connectors were a bit to large. They would work but were a little large and you had to make sure they weren’t to close to each other where they attach to the ignition switch back.