My 15 won't start

[tvw]

I'm putting this 15 roadster back together after 50+ years of being a project car. After being apart half it's life it's ready to be together again. I'm told that the previous owner put new rings in and "did the valves". It's tight, hard to turn over by hand, feels like it has new rings? Rear end is up on stands, in neutral, and with a 6 volt battery connected to the bat post on the coil box I got all the coils buzzing nicely. It has spark at the plugs (plugs out and grounded, nice spark right about tdc) Tried a set of known good coils that I pulled from my 19 coupe too. Timer is roller type, clean and looks good, watched the ground make connection as I cranked the motor. New wiring from timer to coil box. Double and triple checked the wires and watched the spark at each appropriate cylinder thru the cycle. No power from magneto yet, wanted to get it to run before I sort that out.
Feels like it has compression and with an adapter and air compressor pressure I was able to check leak down, rings hold good and valves have no leaks. But I can't get compression gauge to show anything but a short bounce when cranking over by hand, maybe the hand cranking is too slow?
Tried the brass Holley G that came with it, it needs work, and a brand new repro NH that came with the car, and I have fuel to the carb. Even tried priming the cylinders with a shot of gas, I'm getting nothing, not even a cough or sputter?
Pulled the 1-2 valve cover, real clean in there. Watched the valves go up and down, not sticking. Has 1/64 -1/32 clearance on the valves. Didn't look at 3-4 yet, assuming that they are the same.
It's cold in the workshop, 30-50° and hand cranking sure isn't like electric!
Fuel, spark, air, at the right time - what am I missing?

[speedytinc]

Does it have an early cam with the timer pin a thru hole?
If so, timing can be off 180. Check that you are firing @ tdc on # 1 cylinder.
Or pull the roller pin & see if its a thru hole.

[TWrenn]

Does it have an early cam with the timer pin a thru hole?
If so, timing can be off 180. Check that you are firing @ tdc on # 1 cylinder.
Or pull the roller pin & see if its a thru hole.

I'd like to second that motion!! Almost always the culprit in these cases of earlier camshafts. Hope he's checked it by now. I have a paint mark at the proper end of the hole for my pin since I have a bad case of CRS I would literally forget which end is which in less than 10 minutes!!!

[Norman Kling]

You need to put a few drops of oil in each cylinder to get the rings to seal at the cylinder walls and ring grooves. Then put the wheels on the ground and pull with another vehical to get the engine moving at enough speed to run. Use neutral for pulling until it gets going fast enough to use high gear. If it still won't start, there is something wrong with either the timing or the fuel intake. If it will start, let it warm up to operating temperature while idling at a fast idle. Then cool lit off. If you have an aluminum head tighten the head bolts to torque when it cools off, it it is an iron head tighten them while hot. After it cools off repeat and run at moderate speed for a mile or two and cool off torque the head again. Keep torquing the head until it hold torque and doesn't need to be tightened any more. If the engine has loosened up enough to crank fast, you might be able to crank start now. If not, continue to pull the car, or if you are on a hill you might try coasting down the hill in neutral and then go to high gear to start.
Norm

[Craig Leach]

Hi Jeff,
Your compression tester should have a check valve so it retains the reading ( untill released ) should be three compressions as fast as you can
pull then rest so you don't loose ambition between cylinders. All plugs out throttle wide open both wheels off the ground. Since you have the
tappit cover off check the valve timing to make sure the cam is in time & the pin is not 180 out. Iv'e found a rebuilt engine ( by a very reputable
engine builder ) with the cam 90 degrees out of time. Had some compression but would not even pop.
Craig.

[tvw]

Thanks for the replies, I will double check the cam timing. Didn't know about the thru hole for the timer pin but I will look.
I did put some oil in the cylinders a couple times and been turning it over a lot, it is easier now. Not sure what's up with the compression gauge, I know about the relief valve.
No chance of drag starting it 'till spring with the snow and ice on the roads.

[Norman Kling]

Snow? What's Snow? Here sometimes it snows on the higher mountains! Have fun this winter. Maybe you will be able to find out how to get it running before spring comes.
Norm

[tvw]

Yeah I grew up in your neck of the woods, not much snow in Alpine but lots of hills to roll down!

[tvw]

As no. 1 piston travels down the intake valve opens. bottom of the stroke the intake valve closes, compression builds. At TDC the coil rattles off a healthy spark to no. 1 plug. Piston goes down and the exhaust valve opens at bottom, closes at tdc when the cycle begins again for no. 1 and no. 4 sparks. Valve timing is correct. Has compression, has spark, has fuel.

[tvw]

Still trying. Measured the piston to deck height when the intake begins to open, 1/16" per the book. Tried some starting fluid in the intake and direct into the cylinders, barely a puff. cleaned the plugs although I know they work from watching the spark. At least it cranks over better now with all the pulls.

[TWrenn]

Unless I missed it..you didn't say if you checked the pin on the roller where it attaches to the camshaft. If it has the "through-hole" try reversing the roller/pin and give it a go. There's no doubt many of us think that's the problem. You can have all the spark and compression you want but if your timing is off 180 degrees she ain't gonna start.

[tvw]

I will check that. I was thinking that my visual observation of the spark occuring at tdc and in the proper firing order confirmed spark timing but it's worth a try.

[Oldav8tor]

I'm sure you've confirmed the wiring is correct - sometimes folks get wires crossed on the timer. I've also come across having a timer brush installed 180° off a couple of times so it is worth checking. I'm a little suspect of your carbs. I'd recommend anyone with a car that has sat a long time to get the carb rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing. My go--to guy is Russ Potter. He rebuilt my Holley G and I later replaced it with a NH he had done. Both ran great out of the box. In dyno tests the NH was shown to result in greater HP output when used on my engine. I also installed a Scott Conger full-flow valve which might be a good thing to have in country with a lot of ups and downs. Good luck!

[tvw]

Double, triple, and re- checked the wiring... Being 4 wires, color coded and proper length for each spot makes it hard to go wrong, but I did have it messed up the first time
I know the brass G needs attention as it leaked all over, didn't spend much time with it. I will get back to that and the mag when I can get it to start on battery. The NH is a brand new in bag reproduction of a straight thru, og type not the "improved" version. I remember seeing those for sale in the past. Are (were) they any good? Either way I would think fuel and ether directly into the combustion chamber would get a response. But I will try swapping out the carb for a known running original NH after I get a look at that timer today.
Thank you for all the responses!!

[RajoRacer]

Holley G's can be quite temperamental especially the fuel level. I've not ever seen nor heard of a repop, straight through NH - Snyder's puts out a later, swayback style NH & I've used them - it's a decent carburetor.

[Steve Jelf]

Code: Select all

[size=150]30º -50º should be no problem for a Model T. It doesn't have to "spin fast" to start. I'm trying to return after a long absence, and can't even find my videos. Maybe somebody has the one where I hand crank my 1915 at about 25º to get it going after it's sat outside all night. Maybe I can help with this afterI I get my digital chickens in a row.[/size]

[CudaMan]

Regarding Steve's comment about not having to spin the engine fast with the crank if everything is properly set up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA

Regarding crank starting in cold weather:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKERRm95ARI

It helps to set the carb mixture 1/8 to 1/4 turn rich at first for a cold start. Once the engine starts and has run for 30 seconds or so, you can lean out the mixture to its normal running setting. Also note that Steve pulled the engine through four times with the choke set (choke wire pulled out) before he turned on the ignition.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I will check that. I was thinking that my visual observation of the spark occuring at tdc and in the proper firing order confirmed spark timing but it's worth a try.

The key thing is firing on TDC Compression, versus TDC Exhaust.

[TWrenn]

Hence the proper position of that timer pin!

[Wayne Sheldon]

As no. 1 piston travels down the intake valve opens. bottom of the stroke the intake valve closes, compression builds. At TDC the coil rattles off a healthy spark to no. 1 plug. Piston goes down and the exhaust valve opens at bottom, closes at tdc when the cycle begins again for no. 1 and no. 4 sparks. Valve timing is correct. Has compression, has spark, has fuel.

Which I think he has pretty much confirmed already?

[Wayne Sheldon]

My guess would be that he isn't opening the fuel mixture enough for it to want to start? That has been an issue on most of the model Ts I have had and driven much. Most wanted at least half a turn more open to start. One, I never figured out why, but it required nearly a turn and a half more open to start than to run best. Every T has a slightly different "sweet spot" for starting or running.

[Norman Kling]

I realize we have a warm climate most of the year here but my 22 has a NH carburetor on it and I have set it where it runs best when warmed up. After that, it starts with the first revolution of the crank on 6 volt battery and then I advance the spark and switch to mag and it runs even smoother. Haven't had to fiddle with the richness all summer and fall.
Norm

[Russ T Fender]

One of my T's will not start cold unless I open the fuel mixture a full 1/2 turn no matter what I do. It has a stock NH carburetor set up exactly the same way as my other T's running NH carburetors. Don't know why but that's just the way it is.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Norman K et al. On the other end of the spectrum, I too have had a couple Ts that only wanted the fuel mixture opened less than a quarter turn, one I really did not need to open up at all. Why some cars or carburetors want over a full turn, and others only about an eighth turn to start cold? Could be many things, from not properly cleaning all the passageways when refurbishing, or float level too high or too low? Specks of rust from the gasoline tank? Or many other possibilities.
Many years ago, I had a weird carburetor on my first model T speedster. The only thing consistent about it was that it was never consistent! After working it over a few times, and checking everything I could check, I came to the conclusion that it had to have a crack somewhere inside the iron casting where it could not be seen.
It was on my first speedster, and not knowing what I would end up using for a carburetor, I hadn't put a handle to inside the car. Almost every time I would stop the car, I had to readjust the carburetor somehow else. Often when driving, I would have to pull over just to adjust the carburetor! Where the fuel mixture needle had to be put varied from ambient temperatures and thermal differentials, humidity, or just how it was feeling that hour. A few times, I adjusted the fuel mixture needle all the way down, seated, closed. And yet it still ran fine. That was my big clue that fuel was mixing into the airstream somewhere it wasn't supposed to.
After getting a replacement, I took everything off of that one that I thought I might ever want to use. That cast iron body is one of the very few model T parts I ever sent to the scrap yards!

[Norman Kling]

Have a similar thing as Russ on my 26. Also has a NH. I need to open about 1/2 turn from the usual setting when I start cold, but once it gets started and I switch to Mag, I can turn it back to the usual driving point. I suppose it might have something to do with the location of the gas tank or even the float level.
Norm

[tvw]

After pulling the timing cover I can positively, absolutely guarantee that the timing mark on the cam gear coincides with the groove marked ford, and the timer roller is pointing directly towards #1 when it is at tdc compression. The cam is the pin type, or part of a small nail in this case . Just for fun I pulled the old nh off my coupe that ran a couple weeks ago and tried that, no difference. Must just be the cold, and the elevation 7000'

[jiminbartow]

Check for Model T clubs in your area and go to a meeting. Once your dilemma is known, there will be many members willing to come over and help. By the end of their visit, your T will be running. Jim Patrick

[Wayne Sheldon]

Do double check that all four cylinders are firing with good hot spark in the correct order. I have seen it many times. Number one cylinder is correct, but two or sometimes even three of the other wires got mixed up. Firing order (unless a special cam is used?) is always cylinder one, followed by cylinder two, then cylinder four followed by cylinder three (1 - 2 - 4 -3).

If the paint on the engine isn't too thick? I usually lay all four plugs on the head, and after confirming all four have adequate ground through whatever paint is there (sometimes I will scratch the paint off a couple head bolts if the engine's paint is too thick to make ground) (easy to touch up), then run the engine through several cycles making sure they all fire in the proper order a few times.

[tvw]

Been there done that Wayne.
Good idea James but the nearest club is 3.5 hrs away, that's why I come here

[Russ T Fender]

Norman you raise an interesting point about the gas tank. The car I have to richen the mixture on is a Centerdoor with the gas tank under the drivers seat.

[Art Ebeling]

I had a similar no start problem with my 1911 that had sat apart for years. R.V. Anderson told me to check for a restriction in the intake manifold. I could not believe what came from way up in the manifold that could not be seen from either end. This manifold had even been to a machine shop to be machined with the exhaust manifold. I started poking a wire up thru it and it was completely blocked with insect debris. Art

[Loftfield]

I empathize with your situation, have been there in the past, am there right now. Had an engine rebuilt by totally knowledgeable person, could not get it to start by hand crank, finally had to pull it the first few times until components got "settled". Have an engine right now just finished valve job, didn't touch anything else. Won't start with starter. Been through all the ideas expressed in threads above, likely need to give it a pull after a few years sitting idle. On that last front, I grew up in northeast Ohio in a town with average snowfall 160 inches per year, so I understand having to wait for some clear roads for a pull.

One little thing you might try is putting wheels and tires on the back end then putting lever into high gear with one rear tire off the ground, front tires well blocked, the trick for starting in cold weather. The tire spinning gives just that little bit extra flywheel energy, sometimes helps. The last thing to try is moving south, or down, away from snow and ice on the roads. I long ago left northeast Ohio, now live where we drive all year round and have polite snow, beautiful in the morning, gone by noon.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Have you tried giving it a shot of starting fluid? Not as a fix of course, but to see if you can get any fire at all.

And yes, check the inside of your intake manifold as Art suggests. I had manifold trouble myself many years ago, (a huge hunk of casting flash inside the NOS manifold).

[TXGOAT2]

I routinely open the carburetor adjustment on my car (NH) about 1 1/4 turns for an initial start, then lean it out after a minute or so. The car runs well warmed up with the adjustment at 3/4 turn off the seat, allowing for slack in the linkage.
Closing the choke and cranking the engine a few pulls should cause gasoline to drip from the carburetor. If it doesn't, the choke may not be closing completely or you may have a fuel supply issue or a carburetor issue.
A stiff engine should fire and kick, even if it doesn't actually run.
If it does not, It is not getting compression, spark, and fuel at the right time and right air/fuel mix.

[tvw]

Still trying. Measured the piston to deck height when the intake begins to open, 1/16" per the book. Tried some starting fluid in the intake and direct into the cylinders, barely a puff. cleaned the plugs although I know they work from watching the spark. At least it cranks over better now with all the pulls.

Tried that Jerry
Stuck a wire up in the intake and no critters fell out, I have been visited by the mud wasps before so I'm aware of that one, wasn't paying attention to a Chevy small block I fired up after a long rest and had to pull the heads after the mud nests went down the intake and into the combustion chamber. Think I'll pull the manifolds today, just for fun
Thinking it's going to take some dragging around the yard to get it going...

[tvw]

Yeah Pat, I was thinking the same thing, should get something?
Need to make or get a proper adapter for my compression gauge the one I made works for leakdown but bypasses the check valve on the gauge. Get some actual numbers tho I already know there are no major leakdowns.

[Norman Kling]

I just remembered another thing which happened to one of my T's which had been setting for about 2 months. The choke shaft must have had some gasoline around it when it was parked and that gas turned to varnish and the choke was stuck. It would close part way but not all the way. Also the return spring on the choke would not open it fully either. When I got the choke shaft freed up so the choke would work properly, it starts right up now.
Norm

[tvw]

Thanks for the video links, Inspiration to get my stuff dialed in right!

[TXGOAT2]

7,000 ft and cold and a tight engine aren't helping. Measured compression would be somewhat lower than at sea level. Have you tried applying 12 volts to the ignition? It won't hurt the coils, and may give you hotter spark,especially if the coils haven't been tuned recently.

One caution: Don't leave a coil buzzing for more than a few seconds, whether on 6 or 12 volts. If the engine stops where a coil buzzes constantly, either crank the engine a little or turn off the switch.

Fresh gasoline is a MUST. Gasoline can deteriorate in several ways. At higher altitudes, it can lose some of its more more volatile fractions to evaporation, which will not help cold weather starting.

[tvw]

I was wondering if it was ok to give the coils 12 volts, good to know! I will try that today.
Always fresh methanol free gas for the old stuff, sta-bil if it"s going to sit.
Gas these days - is it just me or does it slip thru the cracks more now? Seems like everything I've got, all older makes and vintages, seeps at the connections. When I was a kid electrical tape and some bailing wire would keep the fluids in

[TWrenn]

I was wondering if it was ok to give the coils 12 volts, good to know! I will try that today.
Always fresh methanol free gas for the old stuff, sta-bil if it"s going to sit.
Gas these days - is it just me or does it slip thru the cracks more now? Seems like everything I've got, all older makes and vintages, seeps at the connections. When I was a kid electrical tape and some bailing wire would keep the fluids in

Yes 12 volts if fine. Maybe even better.

[tvw]

Got the 15 started!! What did it?
Timing was correct all along, 12 volts vs 6 helped a lot, new NH carburetor works fine, better than the tired old running one off the 19. Spark on all cylinders at the right time as I had explained before while people still said check the pin on the timer...
A warmish sunny day, space heater under the motor and some strategic priming with gasoline got me a few weak pops. Didn't seem to care whether it had ether or gasoline. Finding it's sweet spot with the throttle and spark got me a little more then it finally lit. After running for 10 minutes or so, getting up to temp I can tell the rings are seating and the valves settling in, better compression and things have loosened up. I can feel the compression between pulls on the crank much better now. Torqued the head and got a couple more starts, even got it to run a bit on the mag . Fun day!
Still have some gremlins to work out, 1 coil is intermittent, swapped it out with one off the 19, will run better with a coil tune up. With the lever straight up in neutral the wheels spin, pulling the brake completely will stop the wheels but labor the motor to the point of stalling. Hopefully it will loosen itself up. Or break
Thanks for everyone's help, good to have another head or two to run things by!

[TXGOAT2]

You want to use "thin" oil in a Model T, especially with a fresh engine and colder weather. In your situation, I'd use a 5W20 or 5W20 synthetic. Thicker oil (over 30W) is never good for a T, since it interferes with lubrication, makes starting difficult in colder weather, wastes power, and can cause excessive clutch drag. Your engine should not drag down with the handle pulled all the way back. Thick oil can cause it, but so can clutch adjustment. Some clutch drag is normal, especially with a cold engine, but a warm engine shouldn't slow down enough to notice with the handle pulled all the way back, which is clutch released and parking brakes on.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Spark on all cylinders at the right time as I had explained before while people still said check the pin on the timer...

Not everyone has adequate time or energy to read every posting in a long thread. The advice you received was good, albeit repeated, and not meant to question or doubt your abilities.

[Norman Kling]

I'm not sure this has been covered but when you park for long periods, like overnight or for a few days or weeks etc. leave the parking brake all the way forward. If you are parked on uneven ground chock the wheels. The front wheels should be chocked in front of the wheels when you crank the car so it won't roll forward when the engine starts. Just before you start cranking the car, pull the parking brake all the way back. The reason for leaving the brake forward when parking a long time is to force the oil out from between the clutch disks because when the oil is cold it can get thicker and cause the clutch to drag. Also when doing a cold start leave the brake in the upright position (neutral) and jack up one or both rear wheels. This will put the least drag on the engine caused by cold oil. Some people even drain the radiator when parked and then fill with hot water before starting in cold weather.
Norm