Update: BAND SPRINGS TOO SHORT?

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 3:13 pm

Do I need the longer spring, Lang's 3425BQ, because my kevlar brake and reverse bands are not under spring tension when released. The only spring tension is from the band itself wanting to open up. 1/8-1/16 of travel space before spring begins to tension.
Nuts spin easily by fingers and I don't want one coming loose and getting lost in the transmission.
So longer spring needed? Anyone see this before?
Thanks!

Post by **CudaMan** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 4:58 pm

If it were me, I would get the new longer springs. One concern with longer springs might be that they would go into coil bind sooner, but from the picture on the Lang's site it looks like the spacing between coils is wider, so coil bind shouldn't be a problem.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:05 pm

Can you get the band tight enough to clamp the drum when it is 1/4" above the floor? and does it completely release when the pedal is all the way back also will the spring move the pedal all the way back and will it release completely the band when you remove the foot from the pedal? If so it is OK. But if it won't move the pedal all the way back and release the band so the drum turns freely, the springs are too short.
Norm

Post by **speedytinc** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:48 pm

My common practice is to put new springs in with a band change (if short)
I would say 9 out of 10 band jobs needed new springs.
They do tend to take a set.
New springs are cheap.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:52 pm

Other than being smidge short, my big concern is there is little tension on the holding nut. I don't want it to back off and take a deep dive into "The abyss."
The only tension I get is from the metal band itself.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:06 pm

I’ve seen a few short band springs with washers to take up the slack. Always best to get the longer springs anyway with new band longings. Cheap security.
The longer springs make for a tighter setup which is good.

Post by **Moxie26** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:37 pm

If you were compressed all those years you'll be a little short yourself ! I believe the new springs available are the standard length.

Post by **Will_Vanderburg** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:57 pm

3425BQ springs are 2 1/4” long. Longer than Ford standard size springs.

They are sold 3 to a set by Lang’s. Some of the standard sized springs are too short.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:19 pm

Thanks all....
Headed to Lang's this week, or they can ship them to me. I'll decide Monday.

Now I just don't want to drop anything in the hogs head..... I'd like to avoid that nightmare.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:32 am

What's the easiest and safest way to swap these springs out? How do I get the new springs to compress enough for install?
I guess I'll stuff the hogs head with rags, and use the dental floss trick for reassembly...... hard part is physically bending over the transmission.

babychadwick · Post by **babychadwick** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:15 am

Professor Fate wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:32 am
What's the easiest and safest way to swap these springs out? How do I get the new springs to compress enough for install?
I guess I'll stuff the hogs head with rags, and use the dental floss trick for reassembly...... hard part is physically bending over the transmission.

Safest way is to pull the hoggshead after removing the engine, if you drop something it may also be the easiest way. I replaced the springs on my moms speedster (before it was mine) and ended up having to unbolt the hoggshead to get to the one nut that slipped. Yes I had rags in there but it found a way thru. Doing bands on a friends T I removed the hoggshead in the car. Once the speedster was mine I found it was easier to pull the engine to do the bands and reseal the hoggshead. When I have to do work again, Ill simply pull the motor as it's overall easier and safer as well.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:06 am

[/quote]
"Safest way is to pull the hoggshead after removing the engine...."
[/quote]

I can't do an engine removal/reinstall alone anymore... I can't hover over an open hogs head with the motor still in the car either. I'm going to have to find some help on this one.....
Physical limitations are at play once again....

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:18 pm

What's the best way to change springs only by going thru the cover plate?
Some are saying it can be done this way.
How can you zip tie or wire up the band ears and still get the spring swap done?
Tips tricks advice?

Post by **Moxie26** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:10 pm

Just a question .... who re-lined your transmission metal bands with the Kevlar linings? . ..From your picture it seems that there's too much lining beyond the metal band and bracket. The lining should be installed to the band at the open ends with maybe a quarter to an 1/8 inch band beyond the metal on both sides and then the lining material moved and worked in to fit inside the metal band prior to riveting the lining to the band. I apologize on my comments if I'm wrong with what I saw on the picture.... Since you are going to replace the band springs , if need be, it wouldn't hurt to remove , check and adjust the band lining installation.

Post by **speedytinc** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:23 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:10 pm
Just a question .... who re-lined your transmission metal babds with the Kevlar linings? . ..From your picture it seems that there's too much lining beyond the metal band and bracket. The lining should be installed to the band at the open ends with maybe a quarter to an 1/8 inch band beyond the metal on both sides and then the lining material moved and worked in to fit inside the metal band prior to riveting the lining to the band. I apologize on my comments if I'm wrong with what I saw on the picture.... Since you are going to replace the band springs , if need be, it wouldn't hurt to remove , check and adjust the band lining installation.

......... Except that to do this one MUST remove the HH.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:12 pm

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What a can of worms this is becoming.... I'll figure it out I guess. Keep the ideas coming. I'm learning by the minute.
Thank you all for your kind help once again.
-D

Post by **Craig Leach** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:06 pm

" 3425BQ Band springs, best quality, longer to help prevent drag. A MUST WHEN USING KEVLAR BANDS and recomended for all cars." Lang's
Maybe that info could also be in the dicription for the band's in the catalog. I have found that 20% of the questions on the forum can be answered
by reading the parts description in the catalog. Our suppliers are trying to make sure we get what we need and be happy so we come back.
The Kevlar instructions say 3/16"-1/4" past the bands. Looks like in the ball park to me.
Craig.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:26 pm

Thanks Craig,

I got the new longer spring upgrade idea from the Lang's catalog, albeit a little late (post installation).
That's what triggered this whole thread.
In the beginning, I was wondering if my current loosie goosie springs would do. Now I want the "proper" ones.
Catalog info and hints are always helpful. Can't wait to be back on the road soon.

babychadwick · Post by **babychadwick** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:12 am

Professor Fate wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:06 am

"Safest way is to pull the hoggshead after removing the engine...."
[/quote]

I can't do an engine removal/reinstall alone anymore... I can't hover over an open hogs head with the motor still in the car either. I'm going to have to find some help on this one.....
Physical limitations are at play once again....
[/quote]

MAXXXXXXX

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:16 am

"Pull the motor, Maxx!"

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Post by **TWrenn** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:45 am

Professor Fate wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:18 pm
What's the best way to change springs only by going thru the cover plate?
Some are saying it can be done this way.
How can you zip tie or wire up the band ears and still get the spring swap done?
Tips tricks advice?

I have done this a few times using zip ties as well as very thin wire. Just go slow, stuff rags under everything (not a fool proof but it helps), I keep one of those extendable magnet things real close by when removing the nuts/washer. So far never lost one. Easy/safe way of RETURNING the nut is to thread a piece of dental floss through it, it won't hurt a thing threading the the nut back on the stud. Then remove what's left of the floss.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:32 pm

Was able to find some longer springs today.

1.52 in car
2.15 new longer springs
1.95 current adjusted gap between band ears.
I should be all set now. Install Friday a.m.

Post by **speedytinc** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:41 pm

You can see by your dimensions, the old springs have shortened themselves quite a bit.
All is well.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:08 pm

On our RHD cars the clutch pedal is the only one that is adjusted internally, but this trick should be universal. When refitting the hogshead, I fit the notched washer and put the nut on for 2-3 treads BEFORE installing the cover. That way there is no chance of dropping stuff into the abyss.

Allan from down under.

Post by **havnfun** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:15 am

I recently changed a set of springs on a 27 and did it without taking the hogshead off, using a piece of thin 3/32 welding rod, bend a hook on one end and on the other end a loop. Hook the hook end on the Band ear you want to change the spring, helps to have a helper hold holding the loop in the welding rod about two foot long connected to the band ear and release pressure so the band slips down enough for you to swap out springs. Then the helper can pull the band back up into position and you install the washer and nut. It’s really easy and if the band slips off, you can easily grab with the welding rod hook end and pull it back up. Using rags is a safety and helps stopping the band from going too far down, and stops from losing a washer or nut in the event the hook slips off during this process.

Best of luck, I’ve done this several times without issues.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:47 pm

Springs changed out for correct longer ones. Binary feel of short springs gone. Nice pedal feel that now gives great feedback. Glad I caught this in time.

Post by **speedytinc** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:45 am

I hope this thread enlightens others. The forum can teach us all a lot.

I learned a long time ago to check & change the 3 springs for every band change.
Of the past 30 springs I checked, only one was less than 1/8" too short. That one was replaced also.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:51 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:45 am
I hope this thread enlightens others. The forum can teach us all a lot.

Couldn't agree more!
I'm learning all the time....

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Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:55 am

Wow .... Both springs show, just from visual, show the same diameter wire used to make the springs.. and both have the same number of turns... The long spring never was in an engine, and the shorter one, removed from his car is almost 100 years old, has been under countless heat and cold cycles from use and weather and also been compressed all these years. ... If you were compressed all these years, tightened to compensate for band lining wear, like this spring, you'd be shorter yourself. A better comparison would be to find out the metal blend that was used to make the wire for the springs...... Thank you Professor Fate for your picture and comments on your new springs.

Post by **George Mills** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 1:21 pm

Moxie,

Recall, We pretty much had a near similar experience when we redid 'Tom Edison' Model T bands up at West Orange Carriage House turned Garage.

Not only were the original springs almost mush...the new springs were actually just a wee bit too long for the re-rounded bands with wood liners and their ears. I had to put the springs in the bench vise, squeeze them shut to look like the old spring shown in the photo with the vice, and then let it expand back to 'almost' original length. They then went in with only a little bit of persuasion through the tranny door

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 1:33 pm

My more knowledgeable and experienced friend did the job thru the access plate. No hogs head removal needed. We packed rags and used safety wire to hold the bands while we switched springs. It was a 30 minute job followed by 45 mins of riding around.
Was fun to see my friend, as we don't see eachother often.

Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 4:19 pm

Professor Fate : ..... Good progress ! .... And with a loose adjustment you greatly reduce the chance of overheating your drums with your Kevlar band lining. ..... What George was referring to with Edison's 1922 touring car, we relined the bands with wood liners and we did use new springs. Since the Edison estate is in a very hilly area, we adjusted the bands to give a slightly higher pedal to adapt to a safety concern.

Professor Fate · Post by **Professor Fate** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 4:49 pm

Ahhh, so! I understand now. Thanks for explaining.

Overheated drums were a concern. Not so much now thankfully.

I'm really enjoying the pedal feel and feedback now that i have more than just the metal band springing open. It's made a HUGE difference.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:22 pm

Out of curiosity, ... does someone have a verified Ford NOS band spring that can be measured , and post measurements and photo???

fschrope · Post by **fschrope** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:32 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:10 pm
Just a question .... who re-lined your transmission metal bands with the Kevlar linings? . ..From your picture it seems that there's too much lining beyond the metal band and bracket. The lining should be installed to the band at the open ends with maybe a quarter to an 1/8 inch band beyond the metal on both sides and then the lining material moved and worked in to fit inside the metal band prior to riveting the lining to the band. I apologize on my comments if I'm wrong with what I saw on the picture.... Since you are going to replace the band springs , if need be, it wouldn't hurt to remove , check and adjust the band lining installation.

I can't believe more folks haven't commented about this.
That is WAY to much kevlar band beyond the end of the steel band.

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:54 pm

I couldnt jump to that conclusion.
One method of installing lining is to cut the band lining in 1/2 & leave a gap @ the bottom.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:01 pm

Maybe a method by anyone, but, ...the manufacturer of the Kevlar linings does not approve of that method of installation.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:06 pm

fschrope wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:32 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:10 pm
Just a question .... who re-lined your transmission metal bands with the Kevlar linings? . ..From your picture it seems that there's too much lining beyond the metal band and bracket. The lining should be installed to the band at the open ends with maybe a quarter to an 1/8 inch band beyond the metal on both sides and then the lining material moved and worked in to fit inside the metal band prior to riveting the lining to the band. I apologize on my comments if I'm wrong with what I saw on the picture.... Since you are going to replace the band springs , if need be, it wouldn't hurt to remove , check and adjust the band lining installation.
I can't believe more folks haven't commented about this.
That is WAY to much kevlar band beyond the end of the steel band.

. FRED : ..... Sometimes I wonder that myself, it seems that people just comment on the last one or two postings, and then put in their comments. Thanks for your consideration.

Post by **Moxie26** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:34 am

Good morning Jeffrey... In your version of a quoted post , you included a link to "drive mad". What does that have to do with Model T transmission band lining installation ? I and others would suggest you to correct your posting and eliminate that link.

BobUkPipedream · Post by **BobUkPipedream** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:16 am

Well that helps. I guess Drew is an AI bot and goes to show how out of context AI can be. Would be interesting calling Ford nowadays to ask their technical support for advice. First issue, where to plug in the OBD scanner…

Post by **J1MGOLDEN** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:00 am

The Kevlar Bands are a lot thicker when new and that requires the longer spring.

They can be placed around a drum and compressed with a C Clamp to make them thinner before use.

Normally new Kevlar bands require three adjustments after a very few miles and then they are good for a year or more with no further adjustments required.

Using those short springs might be OK after some short runs and those three adjustments.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:36 pm

Drew Binski ...... Do you really have MTFCA LIFE MEMBERSHIP number #2. ??????

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:50 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:36 pm
Drew Binski ...... Do you really have MTFCA LIFE MEMBERSHIP number #2. ??????

Dont be picking on the BOT.
If he identifies as #2, that OK.
Who are we to judge?

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:51 pm

Band springs need to be long so pressure is placed on the band in an outward direction so the adjusting nut and lock washer are always engaged and will not come loose and drop into the engine causing serious damage to both engine and occupants.