Reverse band chattering

[BobUkPipedream]

Hi all,

Well I started her for the first time yesterday, she ran well on battery and magneto. I let her cool overnight and then tightened head bolts. Today was first drive, at first low gear made nasty scraping noises, but settled down a bit. Reverse though sounds terrible, does not engage well and you have to push quite hard to get the car to move. When pushing her back into the garage (engine not running) the reverse band was chattering as in making a ratchet noise and shaking (I took the cover off and was touching it as I was moving it. The drum was hot but I could touch and stay finger pressed without burning myself). Now she has cooled down again, pushing the car back and forth she is not making the noise.

I am not quite sure how to set the bands up. They are Kevlar and I am nervous of overheating. I did the initial setting as per Mike Bender, so the pedals will move halfway up the cam. Is chattering a sign of too loose or too tight?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

[TWrenn]

It is best to keep kevlars as loose as you and your car can tolerate...like if it's hard to get up or back up an incline then give em a little tightening then go try it. Obviously it's easier for the low band since you have the outer adjuster. The other two you just have to tweak them a little at a time til you and the operation of the car are comfortable.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Many variables obtain when a transmission exhibits these symptoms. Was the transmission competently rebuilt, or at least functioning normally before being put back in service with Kevlar linings ? Were the bands checked for roundness or being sprung ? If they were installed through the inspection door they may have been inadvertently deformed. Were the linings properly installed so as to be firmly settled against the band ?
Lastly, driving technique has much to do with how the transmission behaves especially if everything is not optimal. Perhaps there's an "old hand" you can consult who can help you "hands on" ? Good luck !

[BobUkPipedream]

Thanks for the responses. The transmission was working before and I just rebushed the triple gears (well put washers in under the seat to get her back to correct end dimension) and made sure everything was still in spec. She had new triple gear pins too and I did polish them. Since low gear and brake are fairly happy and settling, I think that should all be good. I put the bands in with engine on its nose and they did fit well.

I thought she was not getting into high gear, but then I realised the brake lever had caught up on the quadrant bolt, so I have fixed that, but she still seems late to engage, so I adjusted the fingers today as I only had about 3/4 inch forward movement of clutch pedal when shifting brake lever in to neutral. She has original Ford discs in good condition and a new spring. I am surprised how much difference a half turn on the fingers make to the 13/16 dimension. I had about 1/64 less than 13/16 (my 13/16 nut was no go!) but with half turn in, now I have what feels like 1/32 more than 13/16. Due to the lack of movement in the clutch pedal when going from full forward to neutral, I think I will try the ‘more than’ 13/16 for now and see what that does. I do seem to now have more movement in the clutch pedal at more than 1 inch measured at top now.

I am guessing that the chattering on reverse may be the Kevlar bands settling in. I have only done about 60 foot in reverse, so probably need to just give it time? How does everyone else find it after fitting new Kevlar bands? Do they take a few applications to settle?

[TWrenn]

T Do they take a few applications to settle?

Yes they usually do. I think I mentioned earlier, it may take more than one "tweaking" with what I call "baby steps" on that nut washer with the detent in it to achieve your goal. One, maybe two "clicks" at a time, no more and go for a test run and see how it goes. If you don't have one of those reverse pedal extensions I highly recommend getting one. Often the other pedals prevent your foot from fully engaging your reverse pedal and that too may be a little cause for some chatter as you're not fully engaging the band on the drum. The vendors sell them. Tom Strickling in Ohio makes them. Great accessory.

[speedytinc]

Kevlar bands do take 3 or 4 adjustments before they are finally set, then don't need further adjustment for many thousands of miles in my experience.
The chatter is very unusual. I have not experienced this with kevlar. I have with harder linings like wood or worse.
Do be sure to not over tighten. Slight pedal movement should make the triple gears start to grind. Otherwise they should be quiet.

[Rich P. Bingham]

. . . I have not experienced [chatter] with kevlar. I have with harder linings like wood or worse.

What's worse than wood ?

Seriously, my Lizzie came to me with wooden linings. Chatter in reverse was absolutely horrid !! In fairness to wood as a lining option, they were past their serviceability and had given a few thousand miles to the previous owner. Also, as I found in a later tear-down, the transmission was really shaky. I believe a badly worn "4th main" contributes to chatter. Another downside to using wood linings past their "pull date" was a chronic logjam of splinters in the accessory screen in the transmission inspection door.

[speedytinc]

. . . I have not experienced [chatter] with kevlar. I have with harder linings like wood or worse.

What's worse than wood ?

Seriously, my Lizzie came to me with wooden linings. Chatter in reverse was absolutely horrid !! In fairness to wood as a lining option, they were past their serviceability and had given a few thousand miles to the previous owner. Also, as I found in a later tear-down, the transmission was really shaky. I believe a badly worn "4th main" contributes to chatter. Another downside to using wood linings past their "pull date" was a chronic logjam of splinters in the accessory screen in the transmission inspection door.

I have seen bonded modern hard transmission linings to be abusively nasty.
At least with wood, i am told they can work fine.
My experience may be like yours with them being past their usefulness date.
I don't mean to start a wood band debate. Run what you like. My T's all run Kevlar.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Over 50 years ago an article in the Vintage Ford showed how to adapt early Buick Dynaflo bands for use in a T. At the time, I thought it sounded like a good idea, but I never tried it. The consensus on those hard linings is such that now I never would. I've always been satisfied with Scandinavia lining, but now it's gone with the buffalo, I guess Kevlar is in my future. Many folks like wood and have good results.

[BobUkPipedream]

Well another day, actually another year now and another problem…

Got her out again. I tightened up the fingers half a turn, readjusted pedal again and took all the slop out this time. Still only 1 and a bit movement at top of clutch pedal when moving from fully forward brake lever to neutral. Low gear felt better, reverse a bit better but still rough. High gear suddenly felt too fast… however the misfires are a bit annoying and I tracked it down to a what seemed like a very active coil that was sparking a lot, but not delivering the spark required at the right time to the plug or rather to the cylinder. I did the short each plug to figure that one and did get a nasty belt out of it when my wooden handled screwdriver decided to be conductive. Swapped plugs and the problem moved as did swapping coils. My spare coil did not work either nor my five other cheap ones that came with an old box of crap I bought at the auction. So without the means to check coils, I am going to take a trip to a coil guy this week.

Reverse still not nice, I suspect it may be partly due to using too many revs possibly due to the imperfect running. She does sound surprisingly sweet even when firing only on three cylinders only. Starts up well too and had some free starts. Reverse still chatters when pushing her back in engine off. Drums look fine with no bluing. I did get worried about some metal dust in the transmission oil screen, but on second look, it’s just some very fine stuff that may be connected to new rings etc. I also spotted a very small amount of grey sludge that must be a bit of Babbitt wearing in - I had used timesaver on an obstinate camshaft bearing that would not free up (at that point camshaft would have been very difficult to extract again so did it in situe).

I am really hoping it will all settle down soon as after 3 years or so, I want to drive it properly.

Happy New Year all.

[BobUkPipedream]

Just to follow up in case anyone experiences the same…

Reverse chatter when pushing back into garage has gone. Running a lot better now after swapping out the coil. I do get the nasty judder if using foot brake to full stop and reverse can be a bit messy too. I suspect this is the rear axle (I did not rebuild it, but bought it as a running axle off someone). I will have to tear that apart soon, but just want to get a few 5 mile trips out of her first.

The metal dust has reduced to a very few fine bits. The grey slime has reduced a lot too. Drums look happy too. Only concern now other than axle is very white oil in filler and edges of transmission. I really would not have expected a dodgy head gasket as I had both head and block skimmed. I did retighten the head bolts after first run. I went to about 48lb feet. I am going to do them again tomorrow to 52 pound feet. I used one of those modern gaskets… coolant looks fine.

[TXGOAT2]

The "white oil" is probably due to normal combustion moisture condensation mixing with oil. It will tend to collect in cooler areas, such as inside the oil filler, the valve chamber cover, and perhaps back in the transmission. If you're driving in a cool or moist environment, or both, condensation is harder to get rid of and is more prone to collect. Driving the car only 5 miles is probably not nearly enough to get the engine and transmission fully warmed up for long enough to be rid of the condensate. I suggest driving the car at least ten miles whenever it is started, and more is better. The entire engine needs to come up to 180F to 200 F and remain operating there for a period of time to allow the heat to drive off the condensation. If you have a water pump installed, your engine may never warm up properly in cooler weather. With at water pump, a 180 F thermostat would be needed.

[BobUkPipedream]

Thanks, that sounds about right as it has been very wet here and although I have picked the few dry hours, it has been still damp and cold in the air. Hope to give her a good run tomorrow and it is sunny then too. Just got to pick the least hilly route.

She has a reconditioned rad with flat fins too so the water has not got very high at all.

[BobUkPipedream]

Just given her the first long run and I have to say, I have ridden a ZX7R at 170mph, driven a Jag XJS at 150mph, but driving the Ford at 40mph was scarier! Having said that after the second drive home, I started to feel a bit more comfortable. I still misjudged one junction and nearly hit a car, but I am beginning to get the hang of it. I really need to re situate the brake lever though as it is a bit too much of a reach.

I am now sure that any slight issues remaining are actually the rear axle. It’s not too bad, but given the safety implications and how many hills we have round here, I think I had better make it my priority. Now given the jump from lo to hi, do I go for the 3:1 or the standard? I best go do some research!

Thanks everyone for your inputs, this has been quite a stressful few days, but I now feel that I am finally getting there.

[TXGOAT2]

The car should steer well going forward at any speed up to around 50 MPH. Keep speed way down when backing up. Brakes are not up to modern standards. Adding shock absorbers to the chassis will add stability, especially when cornering and on uneven surfaces.
Steering is very quick, like a go-kart. The 5:1 steering gear is preferable to the earlier, 4:1 ratio, and a 17" steering wheel helps also.

Tire pressure has a big effect on ride and handling. A lighter car can benefit from lower tire pressure, especially with "balloon" tires.

Wheel balance is also critical. Wheels must run true and be in good balance.

A speedster might benefit from moving weight to the rear to improve front to rear weight distribution. Keeping weight as close to the road and as close to 50/50 front to rear and left to right as practical is beneficial..

[TXGOAT2]

3:1 is pretty steep with no auxiliary gearing.

[BobUkPipedream]

Thanks Pat, I have set tyres to 58psi and the steering is quite good, but I do need to shim the drag rod where it attaches to the pitman arm. I fitted a new pitman arm, so it is just the cup needs a penny or something beaten in there. I have realised that I also put too much bend in the springs, she sits quite high despite lowering her by 5” or so.

I think I will stick to the stock gearing. Would like a Watford, but not many of those in the UK.