What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

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ModelTMitch
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What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by ModelTMitch » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:35 am

Curious to know exactly what day your Model T was built?

I have worked out a crude formula for calculating the build date of your Model T, in an ideal world, where everything is perfect!

Of course, it's not guaranteed, and we have to make some assumptions, but all things being equal, it's reasonably close.
It assumes that the engine was fitted into the car on the same day it received its serial number, as Ford called them "Motor Numbers". Naturally, this is unlikely to be the case, so in truth, you're calculating the date the engine was made, not so much the car.

If anyone has any idea when engines received their serial numbers, I'd love to hear from you. Were they stamped as each block was cast? Or were they stamped as the engine was installed in a car? If it's the latter, then the following formula would be more accurate!

Here's how my formula works, and I've used my own Model T as an example.
  1. Start with the Serial Number of your Model T, in my case, it's 10114515.
  2. Using the Model T Serial Number database, we can see that number lands in June of 1924, between serial numbers 9984772 and 10126471.
  3. Take note of the number of days in the build month, that's 30 in this example (June).
  4. Now we need to know how many Model T's were made in the build month, to find this, subtract the first serial of the month from the last serial of the month, in this example we get 141699.
  5. We need to know the average daily production figure, to calculate this, divide the total for the month, in this case 141699, by the number of days in the month, in this case that's 30, which yields an answer of 4723.
  6. Now we need to know the number of Model T's built between ours, and the end of the month. Subtract your serial number from the last serial of the month, so for me that's 10126471 - 10114515 = 11956.
  7. Now we can calculate the number of days between your Model T, and the final car of the month. Divide the number of cars in step 6, by the average daily production figure, in this example that's 11956 ÷ 4723 = 3.
  8. Finally, subtract the answer from the number of days in the month to reveal the approximate build date: 30 - 3 = 27. Meaning my Model T was built (roughly) around the 27th June 1924.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:14 am

Or get a copy of Model T Ford, the car that changed the world. :) But you are darn close, it was June 26, 1924. Ford numbers show 8102 for the 26th and dropped to 2040 on the 27th.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by ModelTMitch » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:25 am

And I was only tinkering with numbers! Wow that's close indeed!
I found this casting mark on the block, to the left of the serial number (there isn't any markings to the right)... maybe this might shed some light on the date? Or is this the plant identifier?
20231228_191611.jpg
Mark Gregush wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:14 am
Or get a copy of Model T Ford, the car that changed the world. :) But you are darn close, it was June 26, 1924. Ford numbers show 8102 for the 26th and dropped to 2040 on the 27th.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by TWrenn » Thu Dec 28, 2023 10:13 am

For that matter, using Bruce's book you can almost determine the HOUR your car was assembled or at least apparently the time of which the worker stamped the engine figuring it was going in the car fairly soon afterward that day.
Mitch that could be a plant identifier as it doesn't look like any cast date I've ever seen, what few I have. But I've owned blocks from '11 on up to '26 and there's a lot of change over the years. And rumor had it there was even very little "curing time" from when a block was cast to when it went in the car in the later years as they couldn't keep up with demand. I read somewhere once that engines were still warm going into the car!


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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:38 am

That only gives the date the engine number was stamped. Many later blocks came without a number and the number of the previous engine was stamped on them. Others were ground off and re-stamped. Other cars had the number changed by the DMV when the engine was replaced by a rebuilt engine. Also engines were made by Ford and shipped to other assembly plants to be installed in the cars. So the only way to determine anything about the car is the date the engine was stamped of it is the original number on that particular engine.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Been Here Before » Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:04 pm

During an oral history interview of a local Model T Coupe, The story goes, when the car was delivered to the dealer for assembly, certain items were found in the seat cushion...they included an empty bottle of Goebel beer, a note with the words written "bread." And a pay stub, dated 1920...and small empty tin, for Kamels. Its not know how accurate the interview was. When asked about the delivered car, the respondent produced the tin, and said "The car was probably finished on a Friday shift, prepared for shipping, but saw action before being delivered.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by mbowen » Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:03 am

Using interpolation on the monthly motor numbers, the estimated date for my ‘24 touring (9323453) comes out to February 14, 1924. That’s a couple of months earlier than I thought I remembered looking up once before, so I’m hoping it won’t be TOO cold that day to take Bonnie out for a drive on her 100th birthday. :)
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:38 am

Just a reminder from the Model T Forum Encyclopedia
"ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS © Bruce W. McCalley. Rev. February 14, 2007
The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car.
It might be interesting to note that Ford claims to have built fifteen million Model T cars; this figure based on the number of engines. Records show, however, that a good many engines were made which did not go into a car, perhaps being for replacement or other use. Fifteen million, of course, is an approximate figure. Add the thousands of cars made in Canada, which are not included in the U.S. serial numbers, and the fifteen million is a reasonably safe number. (Canadian serial numbers, beginning about 1913, generally begin with a "C" and were not a part of the U.S. count. Prior to 1913 Canada used U.S. engine numbers.)

A comprehensive daily serial number list, with many notes, is included in the book, Model T Ford. That list is about 150 pages long, much too large to make available on this site." <-Not sure is this is for manufactured engines or when placed in a car.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Susanne » Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:52 am

ModelTMitch wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:25 am
I found this casting mark on the block, to the left of the serial number (there isn't any markings to the right)... maybe this might shed some light on the date? Or is this the plant identifier?

Image
Mold number and revision tag to the right of it - Mold # 13, revision #1. Molds were wood, The mold number was actually carved into the wood on the mold, the revision tag was screwed into the mold master, similar to the round date tags.

Unfortunately they used these same mold numbers on and off through production - so unfortunately they're no help once the motor passed inspection and was taken off the factory floor. But (at least to some of us) they're a fascinating bit of curiosity about the birth of your car's motor...

BTW, I don't know of motors being cast outside Dearborn (or Walkerville), I always assumed they were cast, assembled, and shipped to the "branches".

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by TWrenn » Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:13 am

Thanks for that "little reminder" Frank! I think maybe a lot of us, yours truly included, have sort of drifted away from what Bruce explained. I now remember reading that but of course long since forgotten!


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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Been Here Before » Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:36 am

Every Model T Ford Owner has wondered the year and production and country of origin of their car. The Ford Owner every few years would give information on production numbers, identification of point of manufacture and more. This information was also reproduced in the Motor, Chilton, etc.

Attach is from Ford Owner and Dealer for 1921 June.

For example, the commonwealth nations received cars from Canada and the numbers in those nations were Canadian cars.

The information found in the current history on production came from publications similar to Ford Owner.

My assumption is there was a period pre-introduction of the improved Ford, Earlier Fords were sold as much newer cars as the unwary did not know that motor numbers indicated production year and if motors were changed so was the model year.

I am certain that as today, folks looking for a car in the 1920's saw a Model T and have stated, "They all look alike to me."


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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Hap_Tucker » Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:49 pm

Reposted from a similar previous discussion located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1423792688 by me (Hap l9l5 cut off):

I believe the evidence supports that the date listed in the USA engine logs from Jan 1915 to 1927 is usually not the date the car was assembled although in some cases it was. And it is not necessarily the date the engine was assembled if the engine was assembled outside of Highland Park and later River Rouge plants. (And there was a transition period when Highland Park sent engine numbers to the River Rouge as they began engine production and later River Rouge sent engine numbers to Highland Park as HP began ending engine production.)

1. Please remember that the date listed in Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) serial number listing which is the normal reference we use for USA produced engines is the date the engine number was entered in the USA Ford Motor Company daily log books of the engine assembly department starting in Jan 1915 and continuing to 1941 (ref page 501 and 537 of Bruce's book "Model T Ford").

2. The date entered in the engine production log is not necessarily the date the engine was assembled. On that same page 501 Bruce states, "During the Model T era, great numbers of engines were assembled at the Ford branches. Apparently Ford printed engine number job sheets which were numbered in advance, and these were attached to engines being assembled. These job sheet numbers were stamped into the cylinder block when the job was completed. [Hap's comment: only complete engine & transmission assemblies received a serial number -- not a short block. Although replacement blocks would be stamped with the serial number of the engine block they replaced if the swap out was done by an authorized Ford Agency (dealer) and they followed Ford's guidance. Now back to Bruce.] Groups of these engine number records (not engines) were also shipped out, and these numbers were then stamped on the engines when they were completed at some Ford branch. Some of these record number shipments were noted, but most were not. As a result, while the Highland Park (or, later, the Rouge Plant) assembled engines on the days indicated, other blocks of engines might have been assembled days or weeks later.

3. It is possible that an engine that was assembled in Detroit might also have been installed in a car on the same day the engine was assembled. Especially if the engine was assembled early in the day and the car later in the day and both at the same location i.e. Highland Park. But that would probably only happen at the main plant location in Detroit when engines were not being shipped or not being shipped very far. In most cases when engines were shipped the transit time for use at the other location would be a few days minimum. I believe this is illustrated by the note at:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm which states:

DEC 12, 1925 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files, Ford Archives
"Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park."

But if we look up the engine serial number 12,861,044 we note that it is listed along in the group from 12,855,160 to 12,863,164 under the date of Dec 5, 1925. In this case the engine was assembled at the River Rouge engine assembly plant (ref 532 shares that production completely shifted from Highland Park to the River Rouge with the last recorded/noted engine numbers (62 numbers -- not engines) sent on Feb 13, 1925 to Highland Park to be stamped on engines assembled there. So in this case it took from Dec 5, 1925 to Dec 12, 1925 for the engine to travel from the assembly plant at the River Rouge to the assembly plant at Highland Park to be dropped into a chassis. That's 7 or 8 days depending on how you count but clearly not the same day of the engine log entry. And note that engine did not have to leave the city.

Note engines could be sent from the River Rouge to the Highland Park plant quicker. On page 536 they note that engine #14,999,999; 15,000,000; and 15,000,001 were held out of production on May 25, 1927 for the next day. And other sources show the 15,000,000 Model T with that engine rolled off the assembly line on May 26, 1927. But I suspect those three engines did not take the normal trip from the River Rouge to the Highland Park plant.

4. And what were the odds that your T was assembled at Highland Park? That varies by year. In 1925 Ford Motor Company USA recorded a total of 1,775,245 Model Ts (includes chassis, cars, and trucks) with 111,418 assembled at the Highland Park plant (ref page 468). That is approximately 6.28 percent of the USA Model T production were assembled at the River Rouge. That year the only plant that assembled more Ts than Highland Park was the Kearney plant with 137,321 assembled.

5. And in some cases engine were stored and installed in cars later. For example the note at:
http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm the Mar 18, 1924 entry reads:

"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Finally is some cases the engine records record the actual time an engine was assembled -- usually the milestone engines such as:

1,000,000 on Dec 10, 1915 at 1:53 1/2 P,M. ref page 512

5,000,000 on May 28, 1921 at 7:05 A.M. "to Edsel Ford"

10,000,000 on Jun 4, 1924 at 7:47 A.M.

Respectfully re-submitted,

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Mark Nunn » Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:48 am

September 20, 1926
10:22 am.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, plus or minus a few days.

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by mbowen » Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:49 pm

mbowen wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:03 am
Using interpolation on the monthly motor numbers, the estimated date for my ‘24 touring (9323453) comes out to February 14, 1924. That’s a couple of months earlier than I thought I remembered looking up once before, so I’m hoping it won’t be TOO cold that day to take Bonnie out for a drive on her 100th birthday. :)
Well, the weather was gorgeous today and a balmy 36F, so Karen and I took Bonnie out for a 15-mile tour of the local area and a trip to town for gas.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Belliott3 » Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:48 pm

My 1916 touring’s engine block was cast Monday, Dec 13, 1915 and the engine serial number stamped Saturday, December 18, 1915.


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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by AndyClary » Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:25 pm

Since there’s really no way to be sure, I’ll just continue to use the serial number as a build date. My 14 Runabout was built 19 November 1913.


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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Drkbp » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:07 pm

Andy,

Bruce's Book seems to be pretty accurate on the engine build dates shown for calendar 1913.
He notes on Page 507: "Records show that 300,000 was built on July 16, at 1:25 P.M."
I have #312,XXX shown as being assembled Thursday, July 17, 1913, the next day.
My Trans Stub Shaft is dated the previous Friday, 7-11-13, which suggests it is an original trans/engine assembly.

Do you happen to know the date on your transmission stub shaft?

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by AndyClary » Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:57 pm

No 😀, I don’t know that date. July of 13 seems early for a 14 model year. I have 4 transmission shafts on the shelf with no date so I couldn’t say how long they did that.

Andy

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by dykker5502 » Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:38 pm

Then there are cars assembled abroad - in Copenhagen for example. Engines came stamped from Detroit and was transported to New York - by barge or ship or railway?, then across the Atlantic most likely directly to the free habour in Copenhagen (1919 - 1924) or Fords own quay in the South Habour, then to the incomming goods recieve gate, unpack, register and store - before being put in a chassis. At least 3 weeks! ;)
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Drkbp » Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:39 am

Andy,
The latest dated trans shaft I have a photo of is "12-3-14", so at least through calendar 1914.

Yes, #312,XXX is an early 1914 style Beaudette Touring car with the 1913 style center back panel.
Ford had trouble with the 1913 style touring bodies and seem to have started using the 1914 style
the last week, or so, of June 1913. They were making both style touring cars for a couple of months.
Beaudette was in Pontiac, MI, which is only about 20 miles from Ford.

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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by ModelTMitch » Sat Feb 17, 2024 1:17 am

I've made my Build Date Calculator available for everyone to download for free...

https://www.fordmodelt.net/model-t-ford-build-date.htm

Of course it's not guaranteed to be 100% accurate. Crude would be one way to describe it :D

Enjoy. :D
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:35 am

Looking through Bruce's huge listing of serial numbers, you will find occasional large blocks of numbers "sent to L. I." or "sent to Manchester." I have always taken this to mean that U.S. engines were cast in Detroit and Long Island, assembled. and stamped with a serial number. After this they were put into vehicles on site or were shipped to assembly plants across the country (New Orleans, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc.) Of course this complicates the task of dating a particular vehicle. Apparently Manchester engines were in the same numbering system used in the U. S., while Canadian Fords, shipped throughout the empire, had their own separate numbering system.
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Hap_Tucker » Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:51 pm

Steve,

Always good to see you posting.

You are correct that those 'blocks of numbers" were sent to Long Island NY and Manchester England (and other assembly plants) and were only the serial numbers and NOT the engines. The engines were assembled at those locations and stamped with one of the serial numbers that had been sent to them.

For Long Island, the Ford Assembly plant there was assembling USA engine blocks and parts. The note on page 515 of Bruce's book states: Engine record numbers, NOT engines, were shipped to Long Island, New York. Unnumbered "knocked down" (unassembled) engine blocks were also shipped; the number to be stamped in upon completion. Actual dates of assembly of these engines is unknown."

Note there is at least one time the Highland Park Plant send 200 engine numbers to the Long Island Assembly Plant on Jan 7, 1918 and on Jan 16 those 200 engine numbers (not engines) were sent back from Long Island to the Highland Park plant to be used at Highland park (ref page 515 McCalley).

On page 528 Bruce shared at the beginning of Jan 1920: Blocks of engine numbers and "knocked down" engines continued to be shipped to Long Island and TO OTHER ASSEMBLY PLANTS (emphasis added by Hap). The serial numbers are listed in the records bout are not shown here after December (1919), for they serve little purpose other than being of some interest. The production figures shown from here on are the Highland Park only. The differences between the serial numbers and the production numbers are due to the shipments to the branches.

Another note of interest to those with USA engines made after Jan 1921 (ref page 524): ...Daily production figures no longer listed in the records. The production figures shown hereafter are the differences between the serial numbers, NOT necessarily the actual number produced.


For the English Fords -- initially they used USA fully assembled cars with USA engines. Then Ford of England began assembling the cars over there with all USA engines. And then they transitioned to having engines produced at Cork Ireland [ref page 230 "The English Model T Ford" book -- 1921 Ford Cork became sole supplier of engine units and cast parts to Trafford Park having built up from late 1920.

Ref page 529 McCalley Jul 19, 1923 8,045,001 to 8,046,000 1000 to Cork
Ref Page 230 "The English Model T Ford" First block of serial numbers issued for complete Cork Built cars (for Eire). The same serial numbers ( 8,045,001 to 8,046,000 )

And the Trafford Park began assembling engines with parts primarily sourced from Cork. And Ford Detroit began sending serial numbers to Trafford Park for their use and that continued from 1921 to when the new English Ford plant (Dagenham) was opened in 1931 so for all of the 1921 and later Model T production. Again using the USA serial numbers.

Canada:

Note even Ford of Canada initially used the USA engine serial numbers because they received fully assembled engines (including the transmission) from the USA main plant that already had a USA serial number stamped on them.

That changed in May 1913 when Ford of Canada began assembling their own engines using the USA supplied bare block castings. Ford of Canada would grind off the "Made in USA" and only pay a tariff on the un-machined bare block instead of the previously completed engine and transmission assembly.

There are two different dates that I am aware of for when Ford of Canada began their own serial numbers -- but both of those dates are in May 1913. (Ref page 540 McCalley "Model T Ford" -- May 1, 1913 and May 20, 1913,)

I suspect but have not found any documentation to prove it one way or the other -- that there would have been some overlap when complete USA engines were still used in Canadian cars while the Canadian assembled and stamped engines were also used in Canadian cars. That may have been one shift, one day, one week or who knows. If someone has information on how long if any overlap when both USA serial numbered engines and Canadian numbered engines were being put into the Canadian cars, please let us (especially me) know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


thebraislins
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by thebraislins » Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:15 pm

Thanks for the post. My T serial number is 10107222. It was built on June 26, 1924, just one day before yours!
Bill in Conn.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:09 pm

The serial number tells us the day your engine was made. If the engine was put into a car in Detroit (or Long Island or Manchester), it may very well have been the same day or the day after. But if It was shipped to one of the branch assembly plants (New Orleans, OKC, Los Angeles, etc.) obviously it could not have gone into a car the same or next day.
The inevitable often happens.
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Jim11787
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Re: What DAY was your Model T built? Try this...

Post by Jim11787 » Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:22 pm

Can someone tell me about assembly on Long Island?

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