Righthand drive T

[krklein]

I was asked by a neighbor to look at a couple of T 's that a friend of his wanted to evaluate for value. They belong to his father who is no longer able to drive b/c of age and infirmities. They were described as "running" 10 plus years ago etc. One was a '27 tudor sedan and the other was a '14 touring. When I finally got to see them, the '14 turned out to be a '16. It was a right hand drive car but appeared to be US made--no C on the block # or the radiator. The intriguing thing was that it had a right sided false door stamped into the body. I had always thought that the foreign/Canadian products had 4 doors that opened on the tourings. I'll open this up to discussion looking to be enlighten by those in the know.

[Allan]

Kevin, if it is a 1916 Canadian product it will have numerous Robinson screws with the square drive throughout. If US production the door anomaly is intriguing.

Allan from down under.

[Luxford]

A bit more information would help with your enquiry.
What is the engine number?
is it an actual 1916 motor?
Does it have "Made in USA" cast into the side of the block?
Photo's of some of the features would also help.
As is, I can think of several different answers as to what it may be.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Regardless of whether or not it's Canadian, has anyone ever seen a Touring body with a false right side front door on a R.H. drive car?

[Luxford]

Yep, common in RHD countries on non Factory bodied Fords , don't forget thousands of Model Ts never had a body from the factory when new, something most forget and think only a Factory made Ford is correct.
But as to whether the blank RHD door is from a Ford factory built car or from some other source is the question I think Kevin is seeking to find the answer for.
If the Ford in question is not Canadian then it may be a RHD Detroit chassis and as Kevin indicated it appears to be US made.
Ford Detroit made and sent RHD Fords to England and one of those chassis may have stayed behind and ?????
If that is the case it's a really interesting car.

[krklein]

As Jerry pointed out, the responders are missing the point of consideration---the false door on the RIGHT side. I had my cell phone light to work with in the back of a poorly lit garage, lifting a ratty car cover up to look at the car that had sat for 10-20yrs and had flat tires to prevent a roll out anyway. There were no obvious indications of Canadian production as noted as noted. The body appeared as a mirror image of a standard touring car. Cast date on the engine was 1916.

[Luxford]

If it shows no signs of being a Canadian version, engine wrong as there is no "C" before the engine number and it looks to be otherwise a USA 1916 standard Ford body except for the fact the right siide has no front door but is instead blocked off as was the case for LHD versions, then possibly what has happened is that who ever restored the car ( if that happened in the early 1950-60's or whenever) assumed that because it was RHD the door should be blocked off. How they did this may offer the answer, it would need fabricating in some way as far as we know Ford never stamped such a panel for RHD Canada or USA.
As to why a RHD USA Ford had a RHD chassis well ??? Any one have a theory? only thought I have is it was not a complete car but made up from a lot of parts and they decided as they had RHD bits to make it "different". Unless someone knows its history we may never know for sure.
If it ever sees the light of day maybe someone will look at the back of the blocked off door panel which may provide the answer.

[Luxford]

Kevin, understood what you said "false door on the right side" so the point also is, is there is a normal front door on the left side? if so that would suggest Canadian or the body has a made up left front door as well as the right hand false door. Maybe the whole body is a reproduction.

[krklein]

The car has all the appearances of a production vehicle but in reverse--R hand drive with a stamped nonfunctional door on the right as the USA version of left hand drive with the stamped nonfunctional door on the left. The emergency brake is on the right side of this car too. It has every appearance of being a regular production model. Didn't pull up the front seat to see the fill site for gas.

[Luxford]

I see it now as a USA bodied Ford with RHD mechanics (if you have RHD hogshead along with RHD steering set up then the handbrake will also be on the right side).
So it has to be a RHD chassis (about 20 other different parts involved to make RHD work besides the motor ) and they would be difficult to collect unless they came with the motor.
OR it started life as a LHD chassis and body and a RHD motor /steering set up was put in. If there is evidence a LHD handbrake ratchet holes in chassis were there that could help solve the puzzle, (though if so the chassis could be Canadian as they drilled both sides for the handbrake ratchet).

No front doors both sides? not very practical for driver or passengers, blocking off the RHD door opening may have been an easy fix rather than making and instaling a proper door. Will be interesting to see the car when it emerges from its hiding place in the future. The price for the car will be badly affected by the lack of front doors.
Another clue may be the dash, it has to be turned 180 degrees from LHD to RHD ( a recent post went into this as the mixture control was drilled in two directions on the duel purpose dash panels. We have LHD converted to RHD T's here in Australia and they just cut a hole on the right side for the steering column and blocked off the LHD hole.

[Virtus]

Another sign of a car built for use as a righthand vehicle rather than a conversion is the hand controls on the steering wheel quadrant. I.e. righthand side, advance retard and lefthand side , throttle or "gas"

[Aussie16]

Lots of thoughts and speculation here! The old saying, "A picture tells a thousand words" would be perfectly applied here. A few photos would clear up any doubt about exactly what model and style RHD T is being discussed here.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I do understand that good pictures may not be coming soon, but without some, there isn't much we can actually tell you. The fact is that there are dozens of things it could be. It might not even be a 1916? USA or Canadian, a special export that returned, or a fully custom built special of some sort. There were a dozen companies (Autowa, Ames, are two that come to mind quickly) that built and sold "upgrade" touring car bodies as well as speedster type bodies and kits.
And, then again, maybe someone altered and built the thing in their garage for reasons known only to themselves?
A bit of history on the model T open car bodies for 1915 and 1916. Although the runabouts and touring cars for 1915 looked very similar to the two preceding years, that new cowl turned into a nightmare for Ford. Prototypes were hand built in the summer of 1914. The intention was to begin production of the new style in the Fall of 1914. Existing sheet metal stamping equipment was utilized, new stamping dies made, and there were serious problems with the results. Runabouts and touring cars both, the front sections of the sheet metal did not want to be formed into the desired design.
I don't know many details, I never had access to the archives. However I have read a few things on the subject and spoken with a couple of researchers about this. Initial delays lead to additional delays while those in charge of the changeover sought solutions. Some small number of new style runabouts were produced in December of 1914, serious production began in January 1915 with less than 2000 new style open cars being produced (most of them again runabouts). Most open car production was in the 1914 style well into February 1915 when things finally got going for the new style.
An interim solution to get production going was to salvage rejected large panels, cut off the bad area and graft on another piece. Maybe they began stamping the large side panels in smaller sections and also grating those together.
About ten years ago, at a Bakersfield prewar swap meet, a few longtime model T people and myself were discussing this subject. It just so happened that several vendors had brought small piles of model T sheet metal. So about six of us walked around from one pile of sheet metal to another, and looked through to see how many side panels were grafted together versus how many appeared to be later single piece stampings.
Over the years, I have heard several people's opinions. But I don't think anyone really knows for how long the grafted together panels were used. I haven't seen anything I would consider a definitive answer. I have heard of at least one 1917 that had grafted panels. Some people believe that grafted panels were used only a very short time. Others that think they went into the early 1920s. I haven't looked closely enough at enough Ts those years to base an opinion myself. Part of the problem is that most grafted panels on restored cars seem to get filled and painted over during restoration. It may be necessary to look inside the body to determine if it has grafted panels or not.

The primary reason I bring this up? Someone familiar with how Ford made a temporary solution to stamping the large side panels by grafting together smaller panels? They could fairly easily take a common left side fake door panel, cut it, flip it around, and graft it to right side pieces cut off from the door opening. The same thing could be done to put a door on the left side of a USA body.

Just another possibility to look for on the car. (You might need to take out the cardboard kick panels?)

[Drkbp]

A full-scale aftermarket body business was in play while the "new" 1915 and
1916 Ford open cars were in production. John C. Nagel's Detroit company was
selling complete 1916 Touring car bodies, tops, lamps and all, in his 29 June 1916
adds in the Motor Age magazine (red dot).

Also, Nagel had adds in the 17 June 1915 edition of Motor Age for the "new cowl"
1915 complete Roadster body that would fit 1912 chassis and up. The aftermarket
sheet metal was available by the time a complete car 1915/16 could be had from
Ford. Lamps, tops, seats and windshields were probably any that would fit properly.
Could easily have been an aftermarket body for a RHD chassis and never was a car.

[Kerry]

And then Ford built in 1915/16 25400 chassis and I have read if I remember correctly in a Ford Times that 41000+ chassis in 1917 and was still assembling brass ones in that model year to reduce surplus stock and suppling them to the Army, maybe that included RHD parts as well.