1911 Engine Block.....

[VowellArt]

Got a question on the 1911 Engine Block....are the Intake and Exhaust ports on the side of the block threaded for some sort of insert between the manifold and the block?

Also, on the 1911 Block is the oil fill a long tube running down the left side of the engine like on the 1909's?

So, if any of you guys has a 1911 block, disassembled or pictures of one disassembled, I need to see the front, the back, top, bottom, right side and the left side, just plain straight on shots will due (or you if you've have them), an angled shot of the front to back along both sides and the same for the back of the block BEFORE the trans is added (just the block), everything else gets added after I get the block drawn since it's the foundation for the engine assembly.

So, if you've got any of those sorts of pictures, please send them to me at vowell@vowellart.com. Thanx!

PS, I would also like to see the same assortment of pictures for the early 1909 blocks too if any of you folks have them.

[Dan McEachern]

Intake and exhaust ports are not threaded- the core plug holes were threaded, but not the ports.

[Wayne Sheldon]

A question for you. I don't have any block that early to help you?
However, it is important that early 1911 blocks were open valve, while most and later 1911 blocks had the valve chambers added to protect valves from dirt and improve lubrication. They are very different, and likely have other differences also.
A couple of the specifics you ask about like the oil fill tube are only 1909 and maybe remnants in early 1910.
1911 was the changeover year from the very early (open valve era) to the later early (pre generator) blocks. Which one are you pursuing?

[michaelb2296]

I have a late December 1911 engine block that i can show pictures of but
I’m not sure thats what you want. Mine is a 1912 model year block. No threads on I/O ports only on the freeze plugs as others have stated.

But i have lots of pictures!

[Aussie16]

Are you looking for pictures of the open valve variant of the 1911 block or the closed valve version? 1911 was the changeover year from open to closed. There were many differences to the open valve blocks to the closed. Both open and closed valve blocks featured the screw in freeze plugs. Outside oil lines were always an accessory and not factory fitted but in 1910 Ford did cast a boss in the front left hand side of the block to possibly accept an additional outside oil line. Search a few of the previous posts for 1910/11 blocks and you will see pictures that will help.

[VowellArt]

I'm drawing all of the different variations of the engines, so I'll need any pictures you have of the 1911 block. I need to see those differences, if you've got pictures so I can draw them correctly.

I also would like to have the variations of the 1909 block, both the water pump engine and the change over to thermosyphon cooling system block.
Thanks!

[Wayne Sheldon]

I admire all the drawings that you do! What a wonderful legacy to leave for the model T club. Just the significant casting changes on the engine blocks over seventeen years is a big undertaking. Minor variations might complicate that? 1911 shouldn't be too bad. One big change, enclosing the valve chambers, separates the early and later model year.
1912 could be tough. Although no huge changes, the serial number began under the valve chamber, and wound up over the water inlet. Between those, the serial number occupied at least three temporary locations. In addition, a "ripple" was put in over the timing gears, and then later removed. That to facilitate the trial of a different front cover and timer and maybe improve oiling of the timing gears. It didn't work out and was later removed back to a slight improvement to the earlier design.

[flatbroke3]

email sent from my phone of both 1909 and 1911 blocks. you will see the 1909 block is a display block from ford for their display chassis in the showrooms.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Harold, myself and I’ll bet many following this thread would be much obliged if you could post those photos here for us to see. The earliest Ts are fascinating to those of us who will never own one, or be able to examine them in person. Thank you !!

[KWTownsend]

Martynn,
Blocks after about October of 1911 have the 'hump" behind the timing gear that was part of the oil diverter for the ill-fated oil-fill timer.

The timing cover had no spout for the oil filler. It was part of the timer.

1912 oil fill timer and front cover.jpg (68.35 KiB) Viewed 4907 times

Unfortunately, oil would come out of it just as easily as it would go into it!

: ^ )

Keith

[Wayne Sheldon]

Keith T, I have for a long time known of those as a 1912 model feature. However, as many early brass era model Ts and pieces as I have looked at, I can't recall ever seeing one of the timers in person, maybe a couple of the "no filler" timing gear covers at swap meets, or a 1912 model T with the complete setup.
You say used after October 1911, which is arguably early 1912 model, however, do you know how long they were used?
Over the years, I have seen a lot of 1912 model Ts, engines, and bare blocks in person and in photos, but only a few cars, engines, or bare blocks with that hump over the timing gear. So it would seem to me have been a shortly used feature. I would expect that the patterns and mold for the blocks would have been used until they wore out even after the oil-fill timer was discarded as a production item. The regular timing gear cover and timer works just fine on the "humped" blocks.
To me, that whole thing has been a historic curiosity. Any idea how many 1912 model Ts are out there having been properly restored with the oil-fill timer?

[KWTownsend]

Wayne,
The photo above is from my friend the late Pete Ratledge. The car he owned (sold to an undisclosed buyer) was made 1059 cars (about a week and a half) before mine. Pete fitted his car with an oil-fill timer and fiddled with it for a long time before taking it off and putting his other timer cover back on. He said it really made a mess. I would be surprised if Ford continued this fiasco very long. I'm sure the complaints came in by the hundreds. Fortunately the standard cover and timer fits fine. Previously, the two-piece brass timer was used. I don't know how long this block style was used. Serial numbers of this era have five digits, but a 'one' is skinny enough to crowd six digits onto the boss. I think they went as high as maybe 105,000 before moving the serial number in 1912 to behind the water inlet, then to standard location of just above the water inlet.

: ^ )

Keith

[Drkbp]

Here is another block cast 11-22-11, and number 93,823(?) (February 1912).
This seems like the "bump" example Keith posted above. The casting date
is over the water inlet.

[Ron Patterson]

Keith
John Regan's magnificent 1912 Ford Baudette bodied delivery car was originally built during the oil filler timer period.
When John restored the car he found a correct oil filler timer and used it.
The story about John finding the unique timer is hilairous.
I will leave it to Kim Dobbins to relate here what happened.
Ron Patterson

[VowellArt]

I've copied all the photos here and even the ones on the links from the old forum, but I still need to see parts of the block that aren't showing in any of these. So it looks like I'm going to have to start with my 24 engine and I have access to a 21's, a 16's and a 26's and then work my way back from those. I really did want to start with the earliest engines, because part of the fun (for me at least) is to see the changes through the years of production and either how they "new and improved" them or the mistakes they made whilst trying some new ideas (like the oil fill timer).

It seems as though there are about 20 some odd engine changes throughout the years, some of the changes are internal and some external, but still since I'm going to show all the parts that make the engine assembly, I was hoping to start with earliest one and make those changes as they occurred (which I can do pretty rapidly since my drawings are in the vector format; 10 to 15 minutes on basics and small changes and 45 minutes to 1 hour for major ones). But I absolutely need a lot of good block pictures to make my views from (I figure about 4 pages per engine should do it), because an engine isn't like other pieces of the car where things go together from one, two or three directions....the engine goes together from all sides, and I'm not talking about the stuff that goes up to make a "short block", I'm talking about the entire engine assembly, ready to install onto a frame!

Fun never quits, ya know.

[michaelb2296]

Pics sent. If you need closeups of anything, let me know…

[flatbroke3]

o.k. here are some pictures of the 09 block set up for dealer display. you can see that the side plates are to fill in the machined holes in the side of the block to show the insides of the engine. you will also see that there are 4 screws on the side at the top that were for the hinges for the head. any questions ?
harold III

[flatbroke3]

more pictures

[VowellArt]

Harold....what are the two holes in the side of the block below the valves for? They've both got a hex looking form on the holes....what either went there or goes there? And is it anything that is actually supposed to be part of the engine?

[RajoRacer]

Cam bearing retainer bolts. - In this case, screws.

[JTT3]

Martynn, this may have been already discussed but if not be sure to note the single reinforcement boss cast into the 09-12 blocks on the 3rd main. I believe in late 1912 they added a 2nd support there. Thanks so much for your dedication to documentation of our beloved T’s. Best John

[VowellArt]

RajoRacer » Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:11 pm
Cam bearing retainer bolts. - In this case, screws.

Steve, the retainer bolts are screws. Okay, did they have a jam nut on them then, because there seems to be a very clear hex left unpainted on the block where these screws would've been?

[speedytinc]

Later hex head retainer bolts were in the block when painted....hense, the hex pattern.
There is no room for a jam nut with the correct bolts.

[VowellArt]

Do you have a picture of one of these screws? I'm wondering if they had a step down cut onto them to mate against the Cam Bearing Retainer or not....just curious.

[speedytinc]

Look @ Langs. They have an early type available.