SERIAL NUMBER vs ENGINE and frame number

[lirogo27]

Serial number or engine and frame number can vary? 1926 Coupe

TO CLARIFY on 9/28/24:

The numbers I am referencing are not even close. I know I said 137 and 127, and everyone likely thought all numbers were the same but the 2 and 3. ALL The numbers are wrong!

my 1926 is 137x7X24 and the 127 number is 127x6x39. There is not a ONE number difference which if it were, could be a DMV error. BUT 85% of the numbers do not match, hence my ask where there would be other numbers stamped.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Earlier cars were different, differences depending on how much earlier.
After December of 1925, for 1926 and 1927, all USA production model Ts and TTs from the factory had matching serial numbers on the engine block and the frame. The exact location varied slightly, could be either the right or left side frame rail, on the top of the frame rail. Generally it was near the brake handle crossover shaft.
If the engine and frame rail numbers are different, it means one of the two (or both?) had been changed at some point in the car's lifetime.

[Humblej]

The engine number is the serial number. If the engine number and frame number do not match, one or both have been replaced over its 98 years. They matched when new.

[John kuehn]

It’s always a good idea to use ONE number for the ID number for a T. Usually the folks at the DMV will usually understand the engine number is the ID number. DO NOT attempt to identify a T with 2 different numbers. Keep it simple and you will not have a lot of trouble getting a T title at a DMV.
Don’t ask them which number to use if the frame and engine number are different. They will be confused enough since it’s an antique car. As time goes by the folks who were familiar with old or antique cars won’t be with us.
Remember the thinking now days is a car from the 50’s - 70’s is ancient besides being antique. Time is moving on.

[speedytinc]

Along that line....... use the frame # if there is a choice.
You are more likely to change a block than a frame.

[Steve Jelf]

There is always some confusion when this question comes up. The serial number stamped on the side of the engine was always the car number, and was (or should have been) used on the registration/title. Beginning December 10, 1925, the SAME number was stamped on the frame. If those two numbers don't match, the car has a replacement engine. For registration/title purposes, I would go with the engine serial number. In such a case I would not confuse the bureaucracy by mentioning a different frame number.

[RecklessKelly]

When I got my VIN check, the clerk went by the frame number. Both match in my case but if they varied, going by the engine number would rule out an engine swap if the block got damaged somehow. The next buyer would want to see identical numbers on the paperwork and the frame.

[Norman Kling]

I bought one which had the engine replaced but the number had not been changed on the title. The insurance papers from the previous owner had the new engine number. I took it to CHP (highway patrol). They verified the block number and it had not been registered to anyone else's car nor stolen, so it was approved and registered with the current number. The number, however, is a different year than the car. For purists that might be a very bad thing. But my car is not for judging, but for touring and parades, shown in car shows which are not judged. I have another car in which the block was replaced by an aftermarket block without any number stamped on it. I did not change the number because the engine I took out of the car still ran but I needed to work on the flywheel and transmission. I got this engine and transmission from a member who was a machinist and put it in the T. I did not re-stamp the number but if the car is sold will come with a spare engine (which has the correct number).
Norm

[lirogo27]

I bought one which had the engine replaced but the number had not been changed on the title. The insurance papers from the previous owner had the new engine number. I took it to CHP (highway patrol). They verified the block number and it had not been registered to anyone else's car nor stolen, so it was approved and registered with the current number. The number, however, is a different year than the car. For purists that might be a very bad thing. But my car is not for judging, but for touring and parades, shown in car shows which are not judged. I have another car in which the block was replaced by an aftermarket block without any number stamped on it. I did not change the number because the engine I took out of the car still ran but I needed to work on the flywheel and transmission. I got this engine and transmission from a member who was a machinist and put it in the T. I did not re-stamp the number but if the car is sold will come with a spare engine (which has the correct number).
Norm

Norman,

Let me clarify:
137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front.

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the cross member

[lirogo27]

When I got my VIN check, the clerk went by the frame number. Both match in my case but if they varied, going by the engine number would rule out an engine swap if the block got damaged somehow. The next buyer would want to see identical numbers on the paperwork and the frame.

John, My frame and engine do match and that is my REGISTERED VIN and TITLED VIN. But some old paperwork turned up listing a 127. Again, my engine and frame have matching 137 numbers. I am just trying to figure out where that darned 127 would be. DO you have a working laundry list of where numbers would be stamped?

2020 paperwork lists 127
engine and frame list 137

If the car was considered a 1926 from the year 1956 on, the 137 number on frame and engine would support that. the 127 would not.

[lirogo27]

Earlier cars were different, differences depending on how much earlier.
After December of 1925, for 1926 and 1927, all USA production model Ts and TTs from the factory had matching serial numbers on the engine block and the frame. The exact location varied slightly, could be either the right or left side frame rail, on the top of the frame rail. Generally it was near the brake handle crossover shaft.
If the engine and frame rail numbers are different, it means one of the two (or both?) had been changed at some point in the car's lifetime.

Wayne. Let me clarify:
137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match!

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. I will look on the side near the brake handle underneath floor board. And on cross member.

[speedytinc]

Title mistakes are all to common dealing with DMV personnel.
I got a harley thats a HER instead of a HAR for make. My roadster PU is a body style CPE.
I dont mess with the bureaucracy to get THEIR mistakes fixed as long as I get my tags.

If the rest of the # is correct & you are licensed to that #, stick with it.
No good comes from pointing out & making them fix their mistakes.

[lirogo27]

Title mistakes are all to common dealing with DMV personnel.
I got a harley thats a HER instead of a HAR for make. My roadster PU is a body style CPE.
I dont mess with the bureaucracy to get THEIR mistakes fixed as long as I get my tags.

If the rest of the # is correct & you are licensed to that #, stick with it.
No good comes from pointing out & making them fix their mistakes.

Hey John. It is Lisa from Long Beach Club. Hope you well. AGAIN, I have said this 5x or 6x now: IT is not a title issue. NOR am I concerned about the title or registration as car is registered and i have title. I wish folks read the thread thoroughly! It is a curiosity and chronology issue. Just trying to understand how this could happen, why it could happen and where a 127 would be on the body. REPEAT - IT IS NOT A REGISTRATION ISSUE. It is a learning issue. I hope things are clear?. Lisa

[lirogo27]

The engine number is the serial number. If the engine number and frame number do not match, one or both have been replaced over its 98 years. They matched when new.

Humble - Let me clarify:
137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off......85% of the numbers don't match.
The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the cross member.

[Line_Noise]

Have you checked the floor cossmember, just forward of the support rail for the seat? Most coupes I have seen have a body number stamped there. The body number was put in by the plant that built the body, and is unrelated to the engine/ frame number.

[lirogo27]

Steve JELF

For some reason my replies to you are not showing. Not sure why so replying separately here. I hope you re well and improving. I ask Martynn about you often.

Let me clarify:
137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front.

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by a previous owner family is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the cross member. Or is there a plausible explanation?

[lirogo27]

Have you checked the floor cossmember, just forward of the support rail for the seat? Most coupes I have seen have a body number stamped there. The body number was put in by the plant that built the body, and is unrelated to the engine/ frame number.

Derek! I have not checked that spot! l will check the cross member tomorrow afternoon as car is in garage for the night right now!

Let me clarify why i asked about places were serials were stamped:

137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match in the sequence! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front.

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the cross member.

[lirogo27]

It’s always a good idea to use ONE number for the ID number for a T. Usually the folks at the DMV will usually understand the engine number is the ID number. DO NOT attempt to identify a T with 2 different numbers. Keep it simple and you will not have a lot of trouble getting a T title at a DMV.
Don’t ask them which number to use if the frame and engine number are different. They will be confused enough since it’s an antique car. As time goes by the folks who were familiar with old or antique cars won’t be with us.
Remember the thinking now days is a car from the 50’s - 70’s is ancient besides being antique. Time is moving on.

Car is registered and I have title. This is not a registration or title issue just a sherlock holmes uncovering 'genealogy' issue.

[speedytinc]

I'll repeat.
Someone screwed up in the past changing a 3 to a 2. Happens all the time. I gave personal examples.
I have only seen frame #'s on the top of the right frame rail right under the big floorboard. Some claim the # could be in the same spot on the left side. You wont find a # 127.....
I have not seen a clarification on your #'s. I assume your # is 13,7XX,XXX. A 13 million # frame & engine.
You are fortunate to have a matching #'s T.

[lirogo27]

I'll repeat.
Someone screwed up in the past changing a 3 to a 2. Happens all the time. I gave personal examples.
I have only seen frame #'s on the top of the right frame rail right under the big floorboard. Some claim the # could be in the same spot on the left side. You wont find a # 127.....
I have not seen a clarification on your #'s. I assume your # is 13,7XX,XXX. A 13 million # frame & engine.
You are fortunate to have a matching #'s T.

My bad John Karvaly, and hope this clarifies what I did not say up front:

the 137 number and the 127 number I referenced in my original question - are not just one number off. They are ALL numbers off.

Here are the numbers:

137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT one number off....85% of the numbers don't match ! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front. Hence my ask as to where else a number would be stamped. So how could a car have two diff serials?

[lirogo27]

sorry folks on this thread: I was not clear in my initial post.

137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front.

Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. the cross member?

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by a previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off.

[lirogo27]

It’s always a good idea to use ONE number for the ID number for a T. Usually the folks at the DMV will usually understand the engine number is the ID number. DO NOT attempt to identify a T with 2 different numbers. Keep it simple and you will not have a lot of trouble getting a T title at a DMV.
Don’t ask them which number to use if the frame and engine number are different. They will be confused enough since it’s an antique car. As time goes by the folks who were familiar with old or antique cars won’t be with us.
Remember the thinking now days is a car from the 50’s - 70’s is ancient besides being antique. Time is moving on.

John - clarifying - 137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match! APOLOGIES I did not state that up front.


The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the crossbar.

[lirogo27]

When I got my VIN check, the clerk went by the frame number. Both match in my case but if they varied, going by the engine number would rule out an engine swap if the block got damaged somehow. The next buyer would want to see identical numbers on the paperwork and the frame.

Reckless Kelly -

LET ME CLARIFY: APOLOGIES I did not state this up front:

137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match !

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match : 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner paperwork is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the crossbar.

[Dan Hatch]

Guys read what YOUR state law says.
In my state it specifically says. Where a VIN does NOT exist, the engine number becomes the vin number. As in older vehicles.

They mean a traditional vin with all the letters and numbers like modern car has.

Know your state law before you go to DMV. But don’t try show them up.

[DanTreace]

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the crossbar.

Car is registered and I have title. This is not a registration or title issue just a sherlock holmes uncovering 'genealogy' issue

Your 13,7x7,x24 engine # is from late May 1926 production, and your frame # matches the engine #, and your title so all is very well.

Frame stamping first began on Dec. 12, 1925, and the frame stamp is usually on the right hand upper frame rail, just in front of the running board brace. Rarely it was stamped on the left upper frame rail.

Regarding any other document you may have, with the "other' #, 12,7x6,x39....that serial # is of an engine from mid-to late Nov. 1925. There would be no way this early engine stamping would be found on your 1926 Coupe.

[lirogo27]

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the crossbar.

Car is registered and I have title. This is not a registration or title issue just a sherlock holmes uncovering 'genealogy' issue

Your 13,7x7,x24 engine # is from late May 1926 production, and your frame # matches the engine #, and your title so all is very well.

Frame stamping first began on Dec. 12, 1925, and the frame stamp is usually on the right hand upper frame rail, just in front of the running board brace. Rarely it was stamped on the left upper frame rail.

12861004 1st frame stamp.jpeg


Regarding any other document you may have, with the "other' #, 12,7x6,x39....that serial # is of an engine from mid-to late Nov. 1925. There would be no way this early engine stamping would be found on your 1926 Coupe.

Dan. Thank you VERY MUCH. Will look for the rail stamp as well as the cross member stamp suggested by another member. my Car frame and engine have the 137 series noted above which puts it summer 1926. The 127 number - I will double check my cars engine number to see if it has been tampered with or mis quoted to me. The frame stamp - mine is on passenger side frame under floorboard listed on frame east west format. Yours is north/south.

[J1MGOLDEN]

An early Ford note.

Motor Number Stamps.jpg (96.23 KiB) Viewed 9344 times

[J1MGOLDEN]

Some states I have lived in years ago had both the Engine Number and Body Number on their titles.

Engine Number Stamp.jpg (48.49 KiB) Viewed 9342 times

[J1MGOLDEN]

The problem this created was the dealers were not required to return the damaged block.

The block often went in storage for spare parts or in a scrap pile that was never sold.

During WW-1 and WW-2 and the great depression, many of those damaged blocks were repaired.

Several of those repaired engines went back in vehicles that later had to have a title.

Sometimes a title would not be issued, because a Model T in another state already had that number.

That has happened to a couple of my friends and one this year.

[Humblej]

Lisa,
Based on your clarification, and if I understand, the engine # and the frame # match...excellent! But the paperwork has a different "serial number" than the engine/frame number. No, there is not a third serial number hiding somewhere on your car that will match the paperwork...its your paperwork that is wrong.

[Mark Gregush]

If the engine and frame numbers match, but title does not; could be someone lost the title and bought a title that had the same body/year style shown. If they lived in the same state as the title, there might never have been a reason for the DMV to have check the numbers for getting license even if sold but stayed in the same state.

[lirogo27]

Lisa,
Based on your clarification, and if I understand, the engine # and the frame # match...excellent! But the paperwork has a different "serial number" than the engine/frame number. No, there is not a third serial number hiding somewhere on your car that will match the paperwork...its your paperwork that is wrong.

Humble. I just quickly checked the engine number personally. It does indeed match the frame number. I will pull the car out of garage this afternoon and scour the frame underneath DRIVER SIDE seating area to see if there is a number elsewhere. The 'paperwork' I am told is original owner paperwork as being for THIS car. Now I don't know how it can be as a 12 million serial number is WAY off from a 13 million serial.

so the 127 number on the previous owner's paperwork - it is either wrong or a different car. More to come later when i pull car out of garage to drive it for the day.

10/1/24 clarification - the only paperwork I have been given so far is the auction listing/invoice and what appears to be a probate file list of the cars in estate w each respective serial number. BOTH those have the 127 number for this car listed as serial number. I have seen nothing else with any numbers.

[TRDxB2]

Lisa,
Based on your clarification, and if I understand, the engine # and the frame # match...excellent! But the paperwork has a different "serial number" than the engine/frame number. No, there is not a third serial number hiding somewhere on your car that will match the paperwork...its your paperwork that is wrong.

Humble. I just quickly checked the engine number personally. It does indeed match the frame number. I will pull the car out of garage this afternoon and scour the frame underneath DRIVER SIDE seating area to see if there is a number elsewhere. The 'paperwork' I am told is original owner paperwork as being for THIS car. Now I don't know how it can be as a 12 million serial number is WAY off from a 13 million serial.

so the 127 number on the previous owner's paperwork - it is either wrong or a different car. More to come later when i pull car out of garage to drive it for the day.

Being told that the "paperwork" is the original owner paperwork for THIS car - caveat emptor
There is always the possibility that you received the wrong "paperwork" if the previous owner had more than one car and your purchase was part of an Estate sale. Exactly what "paperwork" items are you referencing: Title, Bill of sale, registration, other documents?

[John kuehn]

Or somewhere down the line there wasn’t a title to begin with and a title for a 27 was bought at a swap meet and that became the title. Several years ago there was a vendor who had several titles in a box and was selling them. Maybe that didn’t happen in this case but selling titles used to be a fairly common practice. It’s not done much anymore I don’t think.

[J1MGOLDEN]

Delaware is quite strict with those numbers.

You take your vehicle and paperwork to the Motor Vehicle Department and make an appointment for a State Trooper to view and verify your numbers.

Model A Fords have the frame number hidden by the body.

Not a problem!

You leave the vehicle a few days while the body is removed and the number verified, then when the body is replaced, you can reclaim your vehicle and get the title.

[lirogo27]

Lisa,
Based on your clarification, and if I understand, the engine # and the frame # match...excellent! But the paperwork has a different "serial number" than the engine/frame number. No, there is not a third serial number hiding somewhere on your car that will match the paperwork...its your paperwork that is wrong.

Humble. I just quickly checked the engine number personally. It does indeed match the frame number. I will pull the car out of garage this afternoon and scour the frame underneath DRIVER SIDE seating area to see if there is a number elsewhere. The 'paperwork' I am told is original owner paperwork as being for THIS car. Now I don't know how it can be as a 12 million serial number is WAY off from a 13 million serial.

so the 127 number on the previous owner's paperwork - it is either wrong or a different car. More to come later when i pull car out of garage to drive it for the day.

Being told that the "paperwork" is the original owner paperwork for THIS car - caveat emptor
There is always the possibility that you received the wrong "paperwork" if the previous owner had more than one car and your purchase was part of an Estate sale. Exactly what "paperwork" items are you referencing: Title, Bill of sale, registration, other documents?

Humble J - 9/29/24 - in answer to your question: FULL STORY IN SUMMARY to the best of my knowledge. Please read this carefully as it is a bit confusing and perhaps easiest to keep 'on topic' to avoid confusion?

I bought this car from someone - let us call him Sam - who owned it from 2020-2022 He bought this car from a Chicago estate auction house liquidating an estate for a Chicago family. I bought car from Sam in 2022. Sam's titled VIN number and my titled VIN number is the exact same 137 number previously noted in this thread. As you know, This perfectly matches engine and frame.

Last week I was contacted by the grandson of the man who allegedly bought this car in 1956. He has been searching for his grandfathers car for 5 years. The car ended up at some point - after a 1960's warehouse fire destroyed other cars in the family collection- with the grandfather's brother/ cousin in a garage at the brother/cousin house. The two Ts were allegedly not in the warehouse at the time of the fire. The family was estranged so the grandfather's daughter and her son (the grandson) assumed the car was still garaged at the uncle's/cousin's home and did not make waves to get the car back for the past 50 years as there were other cars the family held: They had 40 other cars I think (Chevies and Corvairs mainly) between them and only two Ts - a 1926 and a 1916. At some point after the uncle/cousin died around 2015-2020 the family found out after they inquired that the grandfather's car had been sold by a Chicago estate auction house that liquidated the uncle/cousin's estate. The Serial number listed on what looks to be an auction house receipt and what appears to be a separate itemized car appraisal list the grandson provided to me is the 127 number I mentioned earlier. There is no 137 serial number on any paperwork so far that I have seen (The grandson is looking for more paperwork including the original title and or sales receipt from the grandfather's papers to provide me with further info). Family has asked to buy the car back as it was a childhood car the grandson remembers fondly from 1976. I am willing to offer the grandson first option to purchase this car should I decide to sell someday. I absolutely LOVE this car and can not bring myself to sell it. Now the hitch - see next paragraph....are we talking about 2 different cars:

This brought me to reaching out to you folks for T genealogy and how cars were stamped. SO how can the same car have two completely NON SIMILAR serial numbers. which are basically a year apart (October 1925 for the 127 serial and July 1926 for my 137 serial) HENCE my reaching out to MTFCA forum asking if there were two sets of serial numbers on a T where would Henry Ford put them ? From what I am told, No one in grandfather's immediately family had seen this car from 1976 ish on. SO are we talking about two different cars given two serials? The way the grandson got in touch with me: was that the auction house provided the contact info for Sam from their sales paperwork.

SO how did an auction house list a 127 xx 6 number on the car sales receipt when the car they allegedly sold really has a 137xx7 series number? Is this really the same car? . Did the auction house go sloppy and not confirm the serial of this car and transcribe from insurance listings and the car sold was not really the grandfather's car but/OR was somehow replaced by the uncle sometime between 1976-2020? Don't know how two serials can be in place for a single car. or how a serial on receipt does not match serial on car! THX

[lirogo27]

Earlier cars were different, differences depending on how much earlier.
After December of 1925, for 1926 and 1927, all USA production model Ts and TTs from the factory had matching serial numbers on the engine block and the frame. The exact location varied slightly, could be either the right or left side frame rail, on the top of the frame rail. Generally it was near the brake handle crossover shaft.
If the engine and frame rail numbers are different, it means one of the two (or both?) had been changed at some point in the car's lifetime.

Wayne. Let me clarify:
137x7x24 and 127x6x39. NOT just one number off..and therefore not a 'typo'....85% of the numbers don't match!

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. I will look on the side near the brake handle underneath floor board. And on cross member.

Wayne - there is no number at all on any shaft or cross member near the brake handle. There is a number on the metal at base of the seat just before floor board base. It is a short number and - hard to read but starts with 101 and ends with a B.

[lirogo27]

The car I have is a 19 26 coupe with an engine and frame number that match 137x7x24. The 127x6x39 number that is listed as the serial for my car by an apparent previous owner is not 1 number off. It is many numbers off. Hence why I asked where else there would be a serial number. It appears there is no other place unless it is on the crossbar.

Car is registered and I have title. This is not a registration or title issue just a sherlock holmes uncovering 'genealogy' issue

Your 13,7x7,x24 engine # is from late May 1926 production, and your frame # matches the engine #, and your title so all is very well.

Frame stamping first began on Dec. 12, 1925, and the frame stamp is usually on the right hand upper frame rail, just in front of the running board brace. Rarely it was stamped on the left upper frame rail.

12861004 1st frame stamp.jpeg


Regarding any other document you may have, with the "other' #, 12,7x6,x39....that serial # is of an engine from mid-to late Nov. 1925. There would be no way this early engine stamping would be found on your 1926 Coupe.

Dan - 9/28/24 - . Thank you VERY MUCH. Will look for the rail stamp as well as the cross member stamp suggested by another member. my Car frame and engine have the 137 series noted above which puts it summer 1926. The 127 number - I will double check my cars engine number to see if it has been tampered with or mis quoted to me. The frame stamp - mine is on passenger side frame under floorboard listed on frame east west format. Yours is north/south.

Dan - 9/29/24 - there is no number anywhere on a cross member or frame on left side of car. There is a number on floor just north of base of seat and just south of floor board, but it looks to be a part number - beginning with 101 and ending with B. It is a short number that I can not read clearly.

[lirogo27]

Some states I have lived in years ago had both the Engine Number and Body Number on their titles.

Engine Number Stamp.jpg

Jim 9/29/24 - THX for the article. What years did this pertain to? Or when was it published? I do have a serial number on engine. it matches number on frame. There are no other numbers around the number on the engine. There are no other numbers around the number on the frame

[lirogo27]

Delaware is quite strict with those numbers.

You take your vehicle and paperwork to the Motor Vehicle Department and make an appointment for a State Trooper to view and verify your numbers.

Model A Fords have the frame number hidden by the body.

Not a problem!

You leave the vehicle a few days while the body is removed and the number verified, then when the body is replaced, you can reclaim your vehicle and get the title.

Jim - we are not talking about Model As - we are talking about Model Ts. Nor are we talking about registering the car. The car is registered and has a VIN that matches the engine and frame number. THX

[lirogo27]

Have you checked the floor cossmember, just forward of the support rail for the seat? Most coupes I have seen have a body number stamped there. The body number was put in by the plant that built the body, and is unrelated to the engine/ frame number.

9/29/24 - Derek - there is no number on the cross member. There is no number on the drivers side that I can see. I just pulled up the floor board. There is a number just north of the base of seat and just south of the floorboard. It is hard to see but stamped in the metal. It is a short number beginning with 101 and ending with a B.

Otherwise I see no other numbers. Will keep looking......

[lirogo27]

Guys read what YOUR state law says.
In my state it specifically says. Where a VIN does NOT exist, the engine number becomes the vin number. As in older vehicles.

They mean a traditional vin with all the letters and numbers like modern car has.

Know your state law before you go to DMV. But don’t try show them up.

9/29/24 - THX Dan!

[Humblej]

Lisa,
Your Model T engine number matches the frame number AND matches the number on the registration...The problem if I can wrap my head around it...Someone you don't know, claims a Model T with a different serial number, was sold by an auction house to someone not you, and was once owned by someone's uncle and was not destroyed in a warehouse fire with 40 other cars, is really the family's long lost model T, and they want it back...your putting us on!

[lirogo27]

Lisa,
Your Model T engine number matches the frame number AND matches the number on the registration...The problem if I can wrap my head around it...Someone you don't know, claims a Model T with a different serial number, was sold by an auction house to someone not you, and was once owned by someone's uncle and was not destroyed in a warehouse fire with 40 other cars, is really the family's long lost model T, and they want it back...your putting us on!

Humble - 9/29/24 - Sadly YES I am telling the truth.

The person who contacted me is telling me the car I bought two years ago from 'Sam' is his grandfather's car he played in as a child in 1976. He has not seen the car since 1976 nor has the family tried to get the car back until now. He has spent 5 years looking for it since the uncle who had possession and ownership of the car - passed away. The paperwork this guy sent me are of a 1926 Coupe. My car is a 26 coupe and I bought a 26 from Sam. 'Sam' bought 26 from the auction house's estate sale in 2020. The problem is the serial number the man who contacted me has on personal paperwork and auction sales receipt is 127xx6x39. The car I now own and purchased form Sam - has as a serial 137XX7x4 and 85% of the two serial numbers do not match each other.

I reached out to you folks on the forum - because you all are the A list - michael jordan larry bird, lebron james and Magic Johnson of the T world . I am trying to understand as straight line as possible with no random discourse onto other discussion points, if IT IS POSSIBLE there can be two different serial numbers on one car and if so, WHERE on the car they could be. From comments on this thread, there CAN'T be two sets of serials on one car unless the engine or frame have been switched out. The problem is, my car's frame and engine numbers are identical.

If there are no other places a serial can be other than the frame and engine or crossmember, then the cars are not the same car. And the auction house sold a car saying the serial was one thing when in actuality it was not. let me know. Thank you kindly. I do appreciate all information.

[TRDxB2]

I'll try to summarize: correct me if I am wrong Lisa

The car in Lisa's possession has matching engine & frame numbers and is correctly titled as serial 137XX7x4 & was purchased from an individual not an auction house and it is not the issue at hand! In fact its 100% correctly documented.

The confusion is being caused by a grandson who believes that the car Lisa now owns was previously sold by and auction house to the person Lisa got it from. The grandson provided Lisa with the 127 serial number number listed on what looks to be an auction house receipt and what appears to be a separate itemized car appraisal list. Not sure how this connects to the person Lise purchased the car from.

Also there may have been several Model T's sold at an (or the) Auction from different owners or Estates. It appears the grandson is relying on the Auction house to point him in the right direction. Could be their mistake

My take: The grandson is either a scammer or following a false lead. I'm checking with an Auctioneer that it may be illegal for an Auction House to release information about the buyer or seller of an item to a 3rd party.

If it were me I'd tell the grandson its not the 127 serial number and not to bother me anymore about it. AND keep the car I love

[lirogo27]

I'll try to summarize: correct me if I am wrong Lisa

The car in Lisa's possession has matching engine & frame numbers and is correctly titled as serial 137XX7x4 & was purchased from an individual not an auction house and it is not the issue at hand! In fact its 100% correctly documented.

The confusion is being caused by a grandson who believes that the car Lisa now owns was previously sold by and auction house to the person Lisa got it from. The grandson provided Lisa with the 127 serial number number listed on what looks to be an auction house receipt and what appears to be a separate itemized car appraisal list. Not sure how this connects to the person Lise purchased the car from.

My take: The grandson is either a scammer or following a false lead. I'm checking with an Auctioneer that it may be illegal for an Auction House to release information about the buyer or seller of an item to a 3rd party.

If it were me I'd tell the grandson its not the 127 serial number and not to bother me anymore about it. AND keep the car I love

Frank -

(9/29/24 -putting dates as this thread is getting LONG). you made me cry with your summary. It is spot on - and a stressful week with this situation. Thank you for kind words. Yes you have all facts correct. Yes my car is fully documented. MY Title and registration have a VIN number that is the frame and engine number which match in all 8 digits. Grandson does believe i have his childhood car because auction house allegedly had the buyer as 'sam' which is who I bought the car from in 2022. When sam bought the car in 2020, he also registered the car's title and registration with the exact same numbers my title and registration have. Would an auction house list on a receipt a serial number for example ABC when the serial for a car they sold was really XYZ? Never heard of such an error with an estate auction company. With legit auction companies i believe All numbers and provenance (where possible) are typically thoroughly documented and confirmed - for obvious reasons. GREAT POINT on the privacy issue.

Just crazy situation. Elaborate as all heck with family pictures and paperwork and a very intense story!. But yeah Frank, you have the story right. And I am not making this up. I spent some time today trying to locate a 127 serial number SOMEWHERE on this car - and quite simply, there is no 127 number visible anywhere on my T. I will take a look again this week more thoroughly with a very bright shop light and a fellow T member Martynn and we will scour together - two sets of eyes better than one.

[TRDxB2]

I don't think you want to find the number. Suppose he has a title for 127X or other paper work and then tries to lay claim, see you in court. I have a friend that's an auctioneer , said they really shouldn't provide sell/buyer information to any one. If you know the Action House PM me and I'll see what he knows about it.

[kmatt2]

Basically the grandson knows nothing about what happened to the car after 1976 the last time he saw it at his uncle’s house. In 2020 the uncle still had the car when he passed away. The auction company selling off the uncle’s estate sold the car in 2020 with some type of legal paperwork giving the 13 million engine & frame number because the new 2020 car owner was able to title the car in his name with that 13 million number. The grandson has some short of auction company’s paper work from 2020 showing a 12 million car number. The car you bought in 2022 from the new 2020 owner has the 13 million engine and frame number. Using Occam’s Razor the simpler explanation is best possible answer. That answer goes like this. The engine and frame number the 1926 Coupe had at the time of the uncle’s death was the 13 million number because sometime after 1976 the uncle re-restored the coupe using the better condition matching 13 million engine and frame that he had. At the time the uncle died in 2020 some one dealing with the uncle’s affairs took older 12 million number paper work to the auction company and they printed up a auction listing using that 12 million number, the grandson had some of that paper work.
But by the actual auction time realizing the 12 million number was wrong the auction company went back to the person handling the affairs and that person found the more up to date paper work that the uncle had gotten from the State DMV after he re-restored the car sometime after 1976. This would allow the auction company to sell the 1926 coupe using the 13 million number. But the auction company was not allowed to tell the grandson all of this due to laws and regulation’s or just the auction company’s own policies. There you have what may have happened but the only way to know for sure now is to talk to anybody that knew of the car after 1976 to see what they know and to also check for any DMV records of that 13 million number dating back around 1995 to 2005 for example.

[kmatt2]

Basically the grandson knows nothing about what happened to the car after 1976 the last time he saw it at his uncle’s house. In 2020 the uncle still had the car when he passed away. The auction company selling off the uncle’s estate sold the car in 2020 with some type of legal paperwork giving the 13 million engine & frame number because the new 2020 car owner was able to title the car in his name with that 13 million number. The grandson has some short of auction company’s paper work from 2020 showing a 12 million car number. The car you bought in 2022 from the new 2020 owner has the 13 million engine and frame number. Using Occam’s Razor the simpler explanation is best possible answer. That answer goes like this. The engine and frame number the 1926 Coupe had at the time of the uncle’s death was the 13 million number because sometime after 1976 the uncle re-restored the coupe using the better condition matching 13 million engine and frame that he had. At the time the uncle died in 2020 some one dealing with the uncle’s affairs took older 12 million number paper work to the auction company and they printed up a auction listing using that 12 million number, the grandson had some of that paper work.
But by the actual auction time realizing the 12 million number was wrong the auction company went back to the person handling the affairs and that person found the more up to date paper work that the uncle had gotten from the State DMV after he re-restored the car sometime after 1976. This would allow the auction company to sell the 1926 coupe using the 13 million number. But the auction company was not allowed to tell the grandson all of this due to laws and regulation’s or just the auction company’s own policies. There you have what may have happened but the only way to know for sure now is to talk to anybody that knew of the car after 1976 to see what they know and to also check for any DMV records of that 13 million number dating back around 1995 to 2005 for example.

[kmatt2]

Sorry for the double post but darn the system that was to much typing to take a chance on loosing it.

[Dan Hatch]

Just to confuse you more. I have heard of early 26 numbers found under the hood shelf area on the drivers side. But very few.

As a side note. If the grandson wants car so bad, add 5 k to what you got in it tell him to buy it. If he doesn’t want it that bad he can pound sand.

[Kaiser]

Lisa, I just stumbled on this thread this morning, after sifting through all of it there is really just one conclusion :
Your beloved car with the 137 numbers is legit, is titled in your name and you love it.
The guy trying to claim your 137 car is really his uncles 127 car is "on the wrong scent trail"
He claims to have found old paperwork in the estate of his uncle and that that paperwork shows the 127 car to really be your 137 car?
Quit looking for that elusive 127 number on your car, it will not be there.
Somehow this guy was put on the wrong trail to find his uncle's car, be it by the auction house or by 'Sam' ,
His uncles car is not your car, it is not even the same year, the serial is a million #s off !
Here he comes with some 50! Year old scrap of paper that don't even match with the numbers on your car, trying to convince you that your car really is his.
Tell him very kindly he is barking up the wrong tree and the squirrels are really in his own head.
We can all try to reconstruct what could have happened in the past 50 years but we won't find the truth.
All we know for sure is that you legally bought a nice Coupe from 'Sam' with legit paperwork that matched the car, stick to that thought, never mind what 'sob-story' this guy tells about his uncle he loved so much that he last visited in 1975...
You have a nice numbers matching T Coupe that you love very much and it is YOURS, not his, tell him to keep looking for his coupe but not to bother you anymore because all legal evidence points to the fact that your car is definitely NOT the car he is looking for.
Enjoy your beloved T and drive the wheels off of it
(I was tempted to say 'drive it like you stole it' )

On a side note: Although Coupes are not the most common T, they are not a rare thing and a lot of them are sold or auctioned every year, here on the forum we find it usually very hard to research a cars history on the basis of old paperwork, some cars surface after decades 'under the radar' in someones private collection.
Some very special and noteworthy cars can be traced all the way back with a known history, but with most old cars the history is a big questionmark, there is no way of telling what happened in the years between production and the moment we get our greasy hands on it !

[lirogo27]

I don't think you want to find the number. Suppose he has a title for 127X or other paper work and then tries to lay claim, see you in court. I have a friend that's an auctioneer , said they really shouldn't provide sell/buyer information to any one. If you know the Action House PM me and I'll see what he knows about it.

9/30/24 - i have the person's name in Lombard IL but I do not see a company name. I believe the uncle had a power of attorney because they had shared business interests/assets when the grandfather was ill. I doubt the car gets sold or even kept - if he did not somehow have legal claim.

The reason for the post, is where else would there be serials. If no other, then is this THE CAR. Could a seller have such a snafu that they list a 1926 with one serial number and when it is sold, it is really not the serial of the car?

[lirogo27]

Basically the grandson knows nothing about what happened to the car after 1976 the last time he saw it at his uncle’s house. In 2020 the uncle still had the car when he passed away. The auction company selling off the uncle’s estate sold the car in 2020 with some type of legal paperwork giving the 13 million engine & frame number because the new 2020 car owner was able to title the car in his name with that 13 million number. The grandson has some short of auction company’s paper work from 2020 showing a 12 million car number. The car you bought in 2022 from the new 2020 owner has the 13 million engine and frame number. Using Occam’s Razor the simpler explanation is best possible answer. That answer goes like this. The engine and frame number the 1926 Coupe had at the time of the uncle’s death was the 13 million number because sometime after 1976 the uncle re-restored the coupe using the better condition matching 13 million engine and frame that he had. At the time the uncle died in 2020 some one dealing with the uncle’s affairs took older 12 million number paper work to the auction company and they printed up a auction listing using that 12 million number, the grandson had some of that paper work.
But by the actual auction time realizing the 12 million number was wrong the auction company went back to the person handling the affairs and that person found the more up to date paper work that the uncle had gotten from the State DMV after he re-restored the car sometime after 1976. This would allow the auction company to sell the 1926 coupe using the 13 million number. But the auction company was not allowed to tell the grandson all of this due to laws and regulation’s or just the auction company’s own policies. There you have what may have happened but the only way to know for sure now is to talk to anybody that knew of the car after 1976 to see what they know and to also check for any DMV records of that 13 million number dating back around 1995 to 2005 for example.

9/30/24 - Kevin, a few holes. So an estate auction company would NOT verify the engine and frame number/VIN when they sell and list? Just transfer it from a document and sell it with a receipt listing a DIFFERENT SERIAL? I would be shocked IF this is a seasoned company. Next, restoring a car with a different engine and FRAME? So what parts exactly are left from the original car? SO then is this really the SAME CAR? The engine and frame are 137 serial which is a 1926 and the car was a 127 frame which is a 1925. The family has always known this since 1956 - i am told - as a 1926.

So estate company would not tell grandson anything due to laws or privacy or internal policy but WOULD give them the contact information for the person who bought it in 2020?! And this same estate company did not confirm everything matched prior to sale?

If there was someone after 1976 who knew what happened i am sure the family would have had the paperwork connecting the dots.

Not sure I think what you suggest is what happened. But I go back to the original reason for this post: WHERE ELSE WOULD SERIAL NUMBERS BE STAMPED.


How about this - this is not the same car? Maybe something happened to grandfather car and uncle replaced with a diff car he intended to restore but never did and it sat.

I am not sure how to find 30 year old DMV records but will perhaps look into it. This assumes the 137 car was formally titled or registered. As it stands now, The car is legally owned and titled with a VIN that matches engine and frame.

[Steve Jelf]

They're not all the same is a fact that people often forget. I plead guilty myself, to buying a Model T and assuming that what I find on it belongs there. Add that to the unreliability of memory, and it's no surprise that in many cases the year or identity of a particular car becomes confused. I'm not getting into the weeds of what may have happened in this case. If a car has the same serial number stamped on the engine and the frame exactly where they belong, I doubt that it has one or two changed numbers, or that there is a different number in some creative location. The overwhelmingly likely situation is that it's an original car with its original engine. If there is a title or registration with a different number, there is very little reasonable doubt that it is for a different car, no matter what somebody may think he remembers. Have you ever played telephone?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I just read most of this thing... and now my head has exploded

Who knows why or where or how some 127 number came to be mentioned. It does not matter, IT'S NOT THE SAME CAR! MOVE ON...

[lirogo27]

They're not all the same is a fact that people often forget. I plead guilty myself, to buying a Model T and assuming that what I find on it belongs there. Add that to the unreliability of memory, and it's no surprise that in many cases the year or identity of a particular car becomes confused. I'm not getting into the weeds of what may have happened in this case. If a car has the same serial number stamped on the engine and the frame exactly where they belong, I doubt that it has one or two changed numbers, or that there is a different number in some creative location. The overwhelmingly likely situation is that it's an original car with its original engine. If there is a title or registration with a different number, there is very little reasonable doubt that it is for a different car, no matter what somebody may think he remembers. Have you ever played telephone?

STEVE!!! - 9/30/24 - It is Lisa. Nice to hear from you and I hope you well! I agree. In this case the engine serial and frame serial are exactly in the correct places and stamped exactly the same, looks even like the SAME FONT AND SIZE OF FONT. They are in no way moved, replaced or fudged with. They are clean as clean can be and match where the reference material says they should be. Martynn has seen them first hand actually.

I spoke with the actual person in Lombard IL who was charged with selling the estate cars for the owner family in 2020. I don't believe he is a formal estate auction company but he happens to be a T owner. According to him, there were OTHER Ts he sold for this family in this sale. Further, there were actually some ts in the warehouse a fire destroyed in the 60's (grandson told me there were only two in the collection and not in the warehouse). Also some parts of the TS that were salvageable from the fire were warehoused by the owners should they be needed in the future. There were maybe at least half a dozen or more ts with the other cars sold at the time.

The man in Lombard says he personally confirmed the serials as matching on my car when he pulled it out of the family's garage in IL at time of sale. He alleges in the process of selling the cars, the paperwork got switched and the wrong number referenced to this car on the receipt and listing, hence the 127. SO it SEEMS and appears that the 85% incorrect 127 Vin is for a different car that was sold?

Bottom line, we still don't know. But I do have a properly registered and owned car with a VIN matching the frame and engine. Can try a DMV search and will look into how to even do one after work this evening.

[lirogo27]

I just read most of this thing... and now my head has exploded

Who knows why or where or how some 127 number came to be mentioned. It does not matter, IT'S NOT THE SAME CAR! MOVE ON...

Jerry 9/30/24 - yeah my head darn exploded too! and yes it sure seems like there is another car aged 1 year apart that may or may not be the grandfather's car! Lisa

[Steve Jelf]

If I were to figure out how to do a DMV search...

That may be possible somewhere, but I believe most states keep no records going back more than a few years.

[speedytinc]

Forget this mess & enjoy your T.

[lirogo27]

Forget this mess & enjoy your T.

JOHN 9/30/24 - LOL! Easier said than done as I feel horrible about the situation. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS CAR and am happy it is mine. I could not have bought a better car and it is so much LOVED and well taken care of. i am struggling with the family part of this story. Very sad if it is true. Hence a lot to process and think about.

But YES I absolutely enjoy this car. It is special to me. THX JOHN! Hope to meet you soon at a local T get together. Lisa

[lirogo27]

If I were to figure out how to do a DMV search...

That may be possible somewhere, but I believe most states keep no records going back more than a few years.

Steve - 9/30/24 - agree. and and also there is the possibility there was a single number at one point in time being recorded incorrectly - and since rectified - so who knows if the search would even work. I suspect it would for some years but not all. Dunno. Just a lot to unwind.

[kmatt2]

Lisa, Enjoy your1926 T Coupe, I have one made in February 1926, and enjoy mine. Your title with the 13 million number is well documented and as others have said, finding another number on it now just complicates things. You looked and found no other number, this car is not the car the grandson is looking for.
The history of these cars is that over the years many of them get changed around by various owners. A perfect example from history is the 1928 Model A Tudor car #1 that Henry gave to Edison. That car’s Tudor body was replaced with a Touring ( Phaiton ) body by Henry early on because Edison preferred an open a car.

[lirogo27]

Lisa, Enjoy your1926 T Coupe, I have one made in February 1926, and enjoy mine. Your title with the 13 million number is well documented and as others have said, finding another number on it now just complicates things. You looked and found no other number, this car is not the car the grandson is looking for.
The history of these cars is that over the years many of them get changed around by various owners. A perfect example from history is the 1928 Model A Tudor car #1 that Henry gave to Edison. That car’s Tudor body was replaced with a Touring ( Phaiton ) body by Henry early on because Edison preferred an open a car.

Kevin - 9/30/24 - I don't just enjoy it. I LOVE THIS CAR. I just think it is the BEST CAR EVER. I can not imagine another car. MY car is PERFECT. Hence the stress here. So far no paperwork ties this particular car to the grandfather. And the auction sales listing or an insurance appraisal list (I THINK that is what it is) lists a different serial number for a 1926 coupe. And have nothing other than those two items and family pictures and what folks are telling me is the history. As I said, we will see.

Enjoy your Coupe too! Also, i did not know that edsel story! Will read up on it tonight. A story I heard was that Henry Ford was walking a production line once and just put out his hand one day and said, from this car forward it will be xyzzy year and so it was!

[lirogo27]

Lisa,
Based on your clarification, and if I understand, the engine # and the frame # match...excellent! But the paperwork has a different "serial number" than the engine/frame number. No, there is not a third serial number hiding somewhere on your car that will match the paperwork...its your paperwork that is wrong.

Humble. I just quickly checked the engine number personally. It does indeed match the frame number. I will pull the car out of garage this afternoon and scour the frame underneath DRIVER SIDE seating area to see if there is a number elsewhere. The 'paperwork' I am told is original owner paperwork as being for THIS car. Now I don't know how it can be as a 12 million serial number is WAY off from a 13 million serial.

so the 127 number on the previous owner's paperwork - it is either wrong or a different car. More to come later when i pull car out of garage to drive it for the day.

Being told that the "paperwork" is the original owner paperwork for THIS car - caveat emptor
There is always the possibility that you received the wrong "paperwork" if the previous owner had more than one car and your purchase was part of an Estate sale. Exactly what "paperwork" items are you referencing: Title, Bill of sale, registration, other documents?

Frank -

10/1/24 clarification - the only paperwork I have been given so far is the auction listing/invoice and what appears to be a probate file list of the cars in estate with each respective serial number. BOTH those have the 127 number for this car listed as serial number. I have seen nothing else with any numbers. And you are SPOT ON, there apparently were multiple Ts in the estate sale at the same time which I was not told until yesterday.

[VowellArt]

Lisa, there is something else you probably didn't or don't know about registering a car here in CA (besides the VIN being wrong)....every time (especially with an antique) they pass the VIN to the CHP to have them run it on their stolen car database. Since your car's registration went through and gave you title to it, that means they (the CHP) checked each transactions of the car clear down to your registration of the car to make sure to make sure it was reported stolen. Since they registered it to you, I'd say it came back CLEAR!

I know this because I had to go through it myself when I registered my car. Since my car is a 1922, the DMV wasn't going to sign off on my engine number as being it's VIN until the CHP signed off on it. So I made an appointment to see the local CHP office, the guy came out took one look at my engine number and said that it easily readable and clear as day (another reason to paint the blocks dawn grey, rather than black, lol, makes such things very legible). Then he went back inside his office and came back with my paperwork about 20 minutes later, with a signature on the DMV paperwork and said I was free to go back to the DMV for the registration. When I asked him why he didn't bother to sign my paperwork out here, he told me he had to check the stolen car database to make sure my car wasn't on that list and that they do that for every car sold by private party and registered here in CA. The upshot is, the DMV was forced to accept my engine number as the cars VIN and that her title was clear (which I knew it would be anyway...Henry may have made all the parts, but I'm the one who put them together, )!

[John kuehn]

Martynn
Here in Texas when I was going through the process of getting a title for my 21 Touring the DMV checked my car to see if it stolen. It turned out it wasn’t so I asked the inspector how far back do they go and it turned out to be 25 years. He told me they started doing that because of so many vehicles so they started doing that a few years earlier.
I don’t know how far other states go back to check for stolen vehicles but in Texas it’s 25 years.
By the way the inspector went straight for the engine to get number.

[TRDxB2]

Experiences with Titling or Registering a car needs to be dated. There have been many changes to how the Identity of a car has been recorded.
Many car manufactures back in the day used engine numbers, then serial numbers from somewhere. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 may have as few as 5 digits to as many as 13 digits.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) standardized the VIN format in 1981, requiring all vehicles sold in the United States to have a 17-character VIN. The 17-character VIN format became applicable to passenger cars on January 1, 1980, and to other vehicles on September 1, 1980.

Current definition: A vehicle identification number (VIN; also called a chassis number or frame number) is a unique code, including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds, as defined by the International Organization for Standardization in ISO 3779 (content and structure) and ISO 4030

[lirogo27]

Lisa, there is something else you probably didn't or don't know about registering a car here in CA (besides the VIN being wrong)....every time (especially with an antique) they pass the VIN to the CHP to have them run it on their stolen car database. Since your car's registration went through and gave you title to it, that means they (the CHP) checked each transactions of the car clear down to your registration of the car to make sure to make sure it was reported stolen. Since they registered it to you, I'd say it came back CLEAR!

I know this because I had to go through it myself when I registered my car. Since my car is a 1922, the DMV wasn't going to sign off on my engine number as being it's VIN until the CHP signed off on it. So I made an appointment to see the local CHP office, the guy came out took one look at my engine number and said that it easily readable and clear as day (another reason to paint the blocks dawn grey, rather than black, lol, makes such things very legible). Then he went back inside his office and came back with my paperwork about 20 minutes later, with a signature on the DMV paperwork and said I was free to go back to the DMV for the registration. When I asked him why he didn't bother to sign my paperwork out here, he told me he had to check the stolen car database to make sure my car wasn't on that list and that they do that for every car sold by private party and registered here in CA. The upshot is, the DMV was forced to accept my engine number as the cars VIN and that her title was clear (which I knew it would be anyway...Henry may have made all the parts, but I'm the one who put them together, )!

10/3/24 - THX Martynn! And I know you have seen the Serials on my car directly!

[lirogo27]

Experiences with Titling or Registering a car needs to be dated. There have been many changes to how the Identity of a car has been recorded.
Many car manufactures back in the day used engine numbers, then serial numbers from somewhere. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 may have as few as 5 digits to as many as 13 digits.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) standardized the VIN format in 1981, requiring all vehicles sold in the United States to have a 17-character VIN. The 17-character VIN format became applicable to passenger cars on January 1, 1980, and to other vehicles on September 1, 1980.

Current definition: A vehicle identification number (VIN; also called a chassis number or frame number) is a unique code, including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds, as defined by the International Organization for Standardization in ISO 3779 (content and structure) and ISO 4030

10/3/24 - Thank you Frank! Yes. BTW - check your Private messages. The steer gear cover worked like a DREAM! Thank you again!

[John Codman]

If my'27 needed a engine, I would have a sheriff's deputy Come out (they will do this in Florida) and verify the frame number, which in my case matches the engine number. If I had a earlier (then when the frames were stamped) T with what I believed to be the original engine, I would have the deputy watch while I stamped the original engine number on the frame. The sheriff's department would certify the number and we could avoid the mess. My 27 would still be a '27 no matter what year engine was installed in it.

[DanTreace]

John

If you have current FL title in your name, and want to swap motors, you can download a simple self-certified DMV form, note the title # and current motor # and then list new motor # of engine to be installed. Pay fee for new title, and your new title will have the new motor listed. Works for any vehicle prior to 1945.

[lirogo27]

John

If you have current FL title in your name, and want to swap motors, you can download a simple self-certified DMV form, note the title # and current motor # and then list new motor # of engine to be installed. Pay fee for new title, and your new title will have the new motor listed. Works for any vehicle prior to 1945.

10/4/24 - good to know.

[John Codman]

John

If you have current FL title in your name, and want to swap motors, you can download a simple self-certified DMV form, note the title # and current motor # and then list new motor # of engine to be installed. Pay fee for new title, and your new title will have the new motor listed. Works for any vehicle prior to 1945.

Thanks for sharing that.