WANTED - Quality Craftsmen to Build an Early T

[Lcjudge]

OK everyone, I’m looking for something a bit out of the ordinary. I’m looking for someone, preferably on the west coast (southern half of California) who is very knowledgeable about early T’s (preferably has worked/restored one or more) who would consider taking on the task of putting one together.

When I say early this is a 2 lever 2 pedal build. I have the complete running chassis. Very little needs to be done to it other than possibly cosmetic work. I have about everything else that is correct for the car. Body in excellent condition, new fenders, splash aprons, running boards, correct excellent condition top irons, new bows, hood former, new Rootlieb hood, correct headlights, correct sidelights, all brackets, braces, etc, etc. So, this somewhat of a giant model car kit that needs to be put together and painted. One reason I’ve thought it best to look for someone in CA (southern half) is I want the guy who does the fantastic upholstery work to do it and the top. I’ve not seen anyone else’s work that’s as good.

I’d chat with someone outside of CA, I just know it seems as there are more early T experts there than anywhere else.

I’d chat about simply hiring someone or preferably I’d trade you a brass T (14,15) to do the work.

[KWTownsend]

Your Honor,
This sounds like a job for Kim Dobbins and Ernie Romero. I would seek their assistance and counsel.
Keith

[Dan McEachern]

I would suggest Pete Eastwood as well.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

If you wouldn't mind stating it, what is the engine number? If you'd rather not say I can totally understand. Wondering if it's an "undiscovered" 2 pedal T.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I wonder if this is the two-lever chassis recently sold in France? It sure sounds like it.

[rickd]

if you can find a copy of Model T Times #389 Jan-Feb 2014 there is a great article about the restoration by Mark Cameron of Owatonna, MN of a1909 Model T # 9043 for the Collier Collection. I don't know Mark and have no idea if this would be of interest to him but I have always been impressed with the work he did on this 1909.

[Lcjudge]

Thanks everyone. Yes, this is the 2 lever that was in France. I bought it a few weeks ago. Kim is familiar with the chassis and has seen numerous photos and info on it.

I've worked on and restored several old cars through the years but this Model T needs an expert working on it.

My last old car build was this IHC Highwheeler. It turned out pretty good considering where I started. It was finished with an "original look".

[pete eastwood]

Tommy
How authentic do you want your car to be?
You say you have acquired most of the parts.
The earliest 1909's like yours have quite a few parts that are different than the regular production 1909's.
If authenticity is important to you, then you should familiarize yourself with those early parts.

[jiminbartow]

I’m too busy to help with a project like this and anyway, am on the right coast, but I’m sure everyone interested is wondering: How much have you budgeted for this project? Are you paying a flat rate or by the hour?

[Lcjudge]

Good question JiminBartow. Cost to do this is open for discussion with those who have interest in doing it. Some folks think they're worth and want $100 or more per hour. Others think $40. So part of it will depend on how familiar the person is with a project such as this, the prior work they've done and how good it is. So right now I'm not saying "I've only got $XXXXX to spend on it". I've been in too many car projects through the years where the thought was "I'll get it done for $X" and the end result is you're lucky to get it done for two times $X. If you're committed to an important worthwhile project, you commit to do it and commit the funds necessary to get it done.

Peter, I've done a lot of research and hopefully I know pretty well what the first 2500 cars have that are different than the later production '09 T's. I'm no expert by any means but boy have a read a lot of stuff and looked at a lot of photos. A lot of the differences are in the chassis. I'm in pretty good shape there. The chassis has nearly all the critical items correct. Right engine, right trans, right drive shaft, right rear end, right frame, right front end, right radiator, right steering column, right quadrant, right springs, right on many other smaller items. There has been some updates on some of the internals. Trans, magneto and a few other things. But, I'm getting all the original parts. The wheels on the chassis are not correct and are more like a slightly later T. But, I'm getting the right wheels. The body and items I'm buying for it are 95% correct. The body has the trim in the right places (a few small differences in pre and post 2500), has the buggy rail, door latches are located in the right location (slightly lower on the door than post 2500 builds), top irons and bows are correct, hood former is correct, fenders, splash aprons and running boards are correct, head and sidelights are correct. So, this car, when finished, won't be 100%. But I don't think there's a 2 lever out there that is. Kim's Harrah 220 was a great example but even it evidently had a slightly later body on it due to some of the trim being different than pre 2500 builds. I know I won't end up with a 100% correct 2 lever. But hopefully it'll be close.......

[RecklessKelly]

Build it yourself, thats the fun of a T. That highwheeler looks great, I can imagine that you could do the just as well.

[Lcjudge]

Build it yourself, thats the fun of a T. That highwheeler looks great, I can imagine that you could do the just as well.

Thanks. Available time is an issue.....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Good question JiminBartow. Cost to do this is open for discussion with those who have interest in doing it. Some folks think they're worth and want $100 or more per hour. Others think $40. So part of it will depend on how familiar the person is with a project such as this, the prior work they've done and how good it is. So right now I'm not saying "I've only got $XXXXX to spend on it". I've been in too many car projects through the years where the thought was "I'll get it done for $X" and the end result is you're lucky to get it done for two times $X. If you're committed to an important worthwhile project, you commit to do it and commit the funds necessary to get it done.
I know I won't end up with a 100% correct 2 lever. But hopefully it'll be close.......

Interesting comment for sure Counselor, and I definitely see your point. For those that might not understand, please allow me to offer a perspective 'from the other side of the fence'. I own a Restoration Shop which has employees, -and we try to play by the rules of both local and federal governments. Unfortunately, doing the right thing sometimes puts us at a disadvantage while typically costing us more money to operate. Here are some of the reasons why...

To begin with, having quality employees that have a craftsman-like skillset (-and ppl who is not all 'methed-up'!!) typically needs to earn a fair wage to support his family, and provide for his and his family's future (i.e.: contributing to a retirement account and a college savings account). The day of the $20-$25 an hour employee is over. Then add in the employee's labor burden costs to those wages in which the employer must pay, and depending on the benefit package, the gross hourly wage can near $50.00.

Additionally, that shop owner generally has more costly overhead if they are operating legally as a Shop. This includes providing a proper work environment for their employees. That means their shop needs to be located in properly zoned areas (-instead of behind someone's house), be licensed with the government, be insured, and have a work area that is is safe, well lit, climate controlled, and is properly tooled (spray booth, lathes, mills, woodworking & sheetmetal fab machines, etc.) to allow their employees to produce work to the best if their ability. All of this costs money. For my shop, to properly serve my customer to the level they requested, I must have an in-house sheetmetal shop, a full engine machine shop, a body shop with a spray booth that is compliant, a wood shop, an upholstery shop, etc. -again all in an effort to be efficient and a value to our customer, and to maintain Q/C expectations. There are valid arguments that can be made for both side of the $40 vs $100 shop rate. To me, the most important aspect of choosing the correct Craftsman is finding the person who you are most compatible with regarding personality and vision. The same applies to the Craftsman choosing his/her customer.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Good question JiminBartow. Cost to do this is open for discussion with those who have interest in doing it. Some folks think they're worth and want $100 or more per hour. Others think $40. So part of it will depend on how familiar the person is with a project such as this, the prior work they've done and how good it is. So right now I'm not saying "I've only got $XXXXX to spend on it". I've been in too many car projects through the years where the thought was "I'll get it done for $X" and the end result is you're lucky to get it done for two times $X. If you're committed to an important worthwhile project, you commit to do it and commit the funds necessary to get it done.
I know I won't end up with a 100% correct 2 lever. But hopefully it'll be close.......

Interesting comment for sure Counselor, and I definitely see your point. For those that might not understand, please allow me to offer a perspective 'from the other side of the fence'. I own a Restoration Shop which has employees, -and we try to play by the rules of both local and federal governments. Unfortunately, doing the right thing sometimes puts us at a disadvantage while typically costing us more money to operate. Here are some of the reasons why...

To begin with, having quality employees that have a craftsman-like skillset (-and ppl who is not all 'methed-up'!!) typically needs to earn a fair wage to support his family, and provide for his and his family's future (i.e.: contributing to a retirement account and a college savings account). The day of the $20-$25 an hour employee is over. Then add in the employee's labor burden costs to those wages in which the employer must pay, and depending on the benefit package, the gross hourly wage can near $50.00. By the time operating/overhead costs factored in, productivity and labor amortization, along with other incidental costs of doing business, it is not hard to see how those hourly rates can be $100 or more per hour!

Unfortunately a shop owner generally has more costly overhead if they are operating legally. This includes providing a proper work environment for their employees. That means their shop needs to be located in properly zoned areas (-instead of behind someone's house), be licensed with the government, be insured, and have a work area that is is safe, well lit, climate controlled, and is properly tooled (spray booth, lathes, mills, woodworking & sheetmetal fab machines, etc.) to allow their employees to produce work to the best if their ability. All of this costs money. For my shop, to properly serve my customer to the level they requested, I must have an in-house sheetmetal shop, a full engine machine shop, a body shop with a spray booth that is compliant, a wood shop, an upholstery shop, etc. -again all in an effort to be efficient and a value to our customer, and to maintain Q/C expectations. There are valid arguments that can be made for both side of the $40 vs $100 shop rate. To me, the most important aspect of choosing the correct Craftsman is finding the person who you are most compatible with regarding personality and vision. The same applies to the Craftsman choosing his/her customer.

[1912touring]

Well said Brent.

[Lcjudge]

Brent, I know what you mean when you start putting overhead on top of just the wages. On my employees we got in a bind on health insurance. I wasn’t going to let them go without and it got as high as $1000/month to provide them a single employee health insurance plan. So it was costing me about $12/hr per employee for health ins alone. Then social security, workers comp, etc, etc. in the end I could have an employee paying them $28/hr but the actual cost of that employee to walk in and do work was over $50/hr. That didn’t count the overhead of the facility, machinery, tools, and on and on. My comment was just a generalization that when someone asks “what do you want to spend?”, the quality of some craftsmen is worth a lot, others not quite as much. In the old car restoration area, there is some truth to “you get what you pay for”.

[EricMac]

Here is my opinion. The two very best craftsmen with a huge amount of experience working on these cars is the father-son team of Mark and AJ Eyre in Battle Creek MI. Mark has restored 60+ Ts, with multiple AACA Grand National Senior, and National awards, a Zenith nomination and five Stynoski wins under his belt. Cars he's restored have won at Meadowbrook, Old Car Festival and Hershey. Simply put, I doubt anyone alive has the winning record he does. That's Mark. Then there is AJ, who is 23 years old and won Stynoski, and garnered an AACA 1st Junior and a National award nomination at Hershey with his first restoration. His car has been shown twice. While neither of them will say it, I will; nobody in the business is better qualified, with the winning record to back it up, than these two. And...their price is in the area where us mere mortals can afford to cover the cost. Contact me directly and I'll give you my honest and glowing recommendation.