MODEL T - "GENEALOGY"?????

[lirogo27]

Not sure i posted this before. I THINK I did but not in my list of posts. SO doing it again to be sure. According to Ford's Dearborn Archive's web site, Due to a fire in 1970, Ford Archives do not have build/production records for anything BUT 1909-11 Model Ts anymore. Has anyone come across a different way to research where your specific Model T car was built and/or what dealer first sold it?

This seems to have been discussed in 2018 (see link below) but figured i would ask again hoping someone has a new source or paid search service they came across. Thank you. Lisa


http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1538570955

[Drobnock]

Good luck on this search.

Unlike realestate and houses, DOTs do not have a good record keeping on older motor vehicles.

It is easier to track the history of your home than your car.

Unfortunately no carfax on vintage automobiles.

Reason suggestions be made on the few - this case Model Ts - remaing vehicles left, to have a vehicle register.

286080683_2238559189650586_111230401210203592_n.jpg (72.55 KiB) Viewed 4896 times

[gjohnson351]

I know the North Dakota state historical archives have old dot registration records. It has some basic info of the car and owner. Unfortunately you have to go and search the records your self or pay a research fee. I was given a sample of these records when I was inquiring about my T's old owner. Some day I hope to make it to Bismarck and do some research and find the original owner. Maybe you can check with your state historical archives to see what they have

[Mark Gregush]

Sorry but really don't think anything has changed in the past 5-6 years since that was first posted. The advice given in that post is still the same, if you don't know it now, you pretty much are sunk.
Except that I know the owner history on my 48 F2, I have no idea which city or dealer in a 60 mile range it was bought new at, as those people are gone.
My 21 huckster (was a coupe) and 1920 Dodge Brothers touring had dealer plates in them, both dealers are gone now so not much change of wasting time trying to find out who they were sold to new, even if they would tell me.
Frankly unless it was an early car, family owned or some famous person had it, it is a Model T, millions and millions were made. Enjoy taking care of it now and maybe don't worry about which of those millions of people in the past owned it, look to the future and what you can add to its story.

[Steve Jelf]

Long ago when I lived in California I tried to track down some history on my 1939 Packard. The firewall plate indicated that it was originally sold by Earle C. Anthony, Inc. in the fall of 1938. I had the mistaken idea that I could find out who bought it and who were the subsequent owners. The dead end in the official record came when I found that the state purged its automotive data after five years. I was able to identify a few previous owners by asking each where he had bought the car. That ended when I came to the guy who denied ever owning the car. I haven't researched this, but I assume California is not the only state where automotive records go back only a few years.

[John Codman]

Does either FoMoCo or the Model T Club of America have access to any records showing what dealer each new Model T was shipped to?

[Drobnock]

FYI

https://www.thehenryford.org/collection ... on-records

Which models have production information available?
In the summer of 1970, a museum fire destroyed many Ford Motor Company production records. The table below indicates which records still exist.

If you do not see the make, model, serial number, or year your vehicle was made in the list below, we do not have production information for your vehicle.

We do not have production information for Ford Mustangs.

Please keep in mind that not all of the runs listed below are complete.

PRODUCTION CARDS



Model Years Covered

ID or SERIAL no.

Ford Model T

1909-1911

1,119 to 70,920

Lincoln Model K

1936-1939

Model K 5711 to K 9674

Lincoln

1940-1942
1946-1948

H 86200 to H 136254
H 136255 to H 182129

Lincoln Mark II

1956 only

C56-7-980 to C56-J-3348

Du Pont Motors Inc.

1919-1932

1-1000

LINCOLN LEDGERS

Ledger #0 Leland Ownership

1920-1922

1 to 3208

Ledgers #1-10 (repeats Leland and continues on with Ford)

1920-1932

Model L 1 to 72010

Ledger #11

1931-1932

Model KB 1 to KB 1630

Ledger #12

2/3/1928-3/29/1931

Some parts change notes, 1928 show motor numbers

Ledgers #13-39

1936-1942

circa model H1 to H136254

Binders #1-2

1920-1931

Model L 1 to 65687

Binder #3

1931-1935

Model L 66001 to 72041
And K, KA, KB

Ledger #113

1928-1932
1932-1934

Shipping Dates Model L
Shipping Dates Model KA

Ledger #114

1931-1934
1935-1939

Shipping Dates Model KB
Shipping Dates Model K


What production information will I find?
The information that is found in the production records varies depending on the type and time period of the vehicle. However, records may include the serial and model type/number, assembly date, color and trim information, ship date and accessories.

Details on the shipment of a vehicle to a branch or dealer are sometimes noted on a record.

We typically do not have information on the original or subsequent owners of the vehicles.

How are the production records stored?
The Model T records are stored on microfilm.

The other production records can be found on the original cards, order sheets, or ledgers.

How can I order production card information?
Complete and return the Production Record Order Form along with payment, $35.00 per vehicle.

Provide your serial number, make, model and body type (for Lincolns), and contact information.

Note how you would like the material delivered.

Payment may be made either by check payable to “The Henry Ford” or by credit card.

Benson Ford Research Center
The Henry Ford
20900 Oakwood Blvd
Dearborn, MI 48121-1970
Phone: 313-982-6020
Fax: 313-982-6244
Email: research.center@thehenryford.org

How will I receive the production information?
You will receive either a photocopy or scan of the original card or information transcribed from the original ledgers onto prepared forms.

For Model T records, which are available only on microfilm, you will receive the best possible copies made from the microfilm printer as well as a transcribed version of the card.

What other information is available?
Although we do not have production records for the Ford Model A or V8, we do have engine ledgers that show when an engine number was produced. The ledgers do not include information on when the engine was put together with the vehicle.

We also have a database with shipping dates for early Ford models (1904-1910), which includes the model number and information on where the vehicle was sold.

Where can I go for more information?
Ford Model T engine production dates are available on the website of the Model T Ford Club of America’s http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm and also in the book Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World by Bruce McCalley (Iola, WI: Krause Publications, c1994).

Ford Model A engine production dates (month and year) are available in the book The Ford Model "A": "As Henry Built It": A Color, Upholstery and Production Facts Book by George DeAngelis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., 1991.).

Ford V8 and Model B engine production dates through 1938 (month and year) are available in the book The Early Ford V-8 as Henry Built It: A Production Facts Book 1932-38 by Edward P. Francis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., c1982.).

The following books from the Car & Parts Magazine Matching Numbers Series can help you decode VIN numbers:

Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1950-1959
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1960-1969
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1970-1979
Catalog of Chevelle, Malibu & El Camino ID Numbers, 1964-87
Catalog of Chevy Truck ID Numbers 1946-1972: Pickup, Suburban and El Camino
Catalog of Ford Truck ID Numbers, 1946-1972: Pickup and Ranchero
Catalog of Camaro ID Numbers 1967-93
Catalog of Chevy V8 Engine Casting Numbers 1955-93
Catalog of Corvette ID Numbers 1953-93
Catalog of Firebird ID Numbers, 1967-93
Catalog of Mustang ID Numbers, 1964 1/2-93
Catalog of Oldsmobile 4-4-2, W-Machines & Hurst/Olds ID Numbers 1964-1991
Catalog of Pontiac GTO ID Numbers 1964-74
Catalog of Thunderbird ID Numbers 1955-93


Ford production reports from 1967-1979 may be available through the commercial services of Marti Auto Works (http://www.martiauto.com/).

The following website can help you decode the VIN number of your post-1982 Ford vehicle (https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/ ... efault.asp).

Related Content
What if Henry Ford never finished building his first automobile?
What If

Historic Innovator: Henry Ford
Historic Visionaries

First Ford Model T Production Card, September 27, 1908
Artifact

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[TRDxB2]

It is doubtful if a Genealogy of a "title/registration" number can be constructed for a car manufactured prior to 1981. Here's why.

Back in the day: Paper copies of Titles were likely filed by Make, Model, & a number (engine, chassis, body, etc) in file cabinets within each State.
Now it should be recognized that at this time different manufacturers could use the same "numbers" as another manufacturer without any problems because the high order of the filling system was by Make & Model. Over the years the "number" on the Title evolved from "engine number" to eventually called a "serial number".

A VIN format were first used in 1954 in the United States. From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers and even divisions within a manufacturer used different formats. These "formats" are often refereed to as "smart numbers" in that the position of each or pattern of values has a specific meaning. It was necessary to have reference document to know what the pattern was & what each value meant. Having said that: If someone, like dealers & mechanics, working with these values, day to day, could remember their meaning.

So at this time there is a mix of number patterns in various State filing systems & possible in a some State's having a computerized database with the advent of the centralized computer system, mid 1960's.

The NTHSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) database established in 1970 was only created to record information about crashes, not car ownership.

It wasn't until 1992 that Congress passed the Anti-Car Theft Act, and then amended it in 1996, to address issues like thieves selling stolen vehicles in different states under new titles by authorizing the U.S. Department of Justice to establish a national system for exchanging information about vehicle titles. The National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) is the national database that provides vehicle title information, including whether a vehicle has been in a salvage yard or declared a total loss. This was created in 1992

While a vehicle's identification number (VIN) is a unique identifier that can be used to track a car's history, including its make, model, manufacturing plant, and title history. The most common VIN format is 17 digits, which became standard for all vehicles manufactured since January 1981. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 may have as few as 5 digits to as many as 13 digits

So the question is how did the Title (ownership) information migrate to the current NMVTIS VIN database. Did some States just wait for a car to get a license plate or car purchase to load data into the new system after verifying it?

I was unable to find out what specific information is kept for each VIN just some high level info. CORRECTION: NMVTIS records include current and previous titles for a vehicle, including the date of issue and the jurisdiction where the title was issued. It also notes "state" like 'flood", "salvage" etc. Also some data privacy regulations are applied to owner data.

The VIN numbers are stored left justified irrespective of when the number was issued. So it is possible for a number to exist when titling another vehicle for the first time, only to find out it was for a different manufacturer back in the day.

[Dan Hatch]

I have an old ledger from a Ford dealership in Tenn.
It has engine numbers, what car or truck is and accessories owners bought. Also what they traded in too.
Mid 20’s to Model A.

[Drobnock]

"I have an old ledger from a Ford dealership in Tenn."

So with a bit of free time and a few years of travel, an ambitious researcher could add an appendex to the Model T Bible by collecting and compiling all the dealer records in private collections.

Or Not.

[John kuehn]

A needle in a haystack BUT the only way you could track a Model T is if it has been kept in the same family. There are a few out there but not many. My Grandfather bought his 24 Coupe from a farmer in 1942. He left it to me when I was around 10 as I remember. It actually went to my Father in his estate. It’s been here on the farm ever since. But before 1942 who knows.
Here in Texas auto records only go back 25 years.

[DanTreace]

Perhaps most states purge records, but our great State of Florida may assist early auto owners, if the FL registered early auto survives, these on-line hand written records list engine serial numbers, so hand searching could find original owner.

Records are by calendar date of registration, mfg model, mfg numbers, mfg name, owners name and address. Pretty cool these records survived and preserved by FL


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/346940

[lirogo27]

I know the North Dakota state historical archives have old dot registration records. It has some basic info of the car and owner. Unfortunately you have to go and search the records your self or pay a research fee. I was given a sample of these records when I was inquiring about my T's old owner. Some day I hope to make it to Bismarck and do some research and find the original owner. Maybe you can check with your state historical archives to see what they have

Nice idea. Appreciate it. The issue here is - where did my car start out? Just because i am in CA does not mean the car is from CA. There are 100 years between now and 1926. But will do my best to isolate where it started out.

[lirogo27]

Sorry but really don't think anything has changed in the past 5-6 years since that was first posted. The advice given in that post is still the same, if you don't know it now, you pretty much are sunk.
Except that I know the owner history on my 48 F2, I have no idea which city or dealer in a 60 mile range it was bought new at, as those people are gone.
My 21 huckster (was a coupe) and 1920 Dodge Brothers touring had dealer plates in them, both dealers are gone now so not much change of wasting time trying to find out who they were sold to new, even if they would tell me.
Frankly unless it was an early car, family owned or some famous person had it, it is a Model T, millions and millions were made. Enjoy taking care of it now and maybe don't worry about which of those millions of people in the past owned it, look to the future and what you can add to its story.

Thank you Mark. Very sweet sentiment! Thank you. I will definitely do that!

[lirogo27]

Long ago when I lived in California I tried to track down some history on my 1939 Packard. The firewall plate indicated that it was originally sold by Earle C. Anthony, Inc. in the fall of 1938. I had the mistaken idea that I could find out who bought it and who were the subsequent owners. The dead end in the official record came when I found that the state purged its automotive data after five years. I was able to identify a few previous owners by asking each where he had bought the car. That ended when I came to the guy who denied ever owning the car. I haven't researched this, but I assume California is not the only state where automotive records go back only a few years.

Steve, That only works if the car started in CA and remained here over the 100 years And yes, there are quite a few states where records are kept only 5 years. Was hoping there was a paid service some of you all have successfully and happily used which will 'search' national databases. I do not see any firewall plate or anything of that ilk.

[lirogo27]

Does either FoMoCo or the Model T Club of America have access to any records showing what dealer each new Model T was shipped to?

John, I thought i noted it in my post, but maybe not. Ford Historical Archives in Dearborn - right on their webpage it notes that due to a fire in the 1970's, only certain select records remain. For T's it is 1909 to 1911 and of specific serial numbers they show on a table on their site. In fact, I emailed Ford Archive's Customer Support Desk and they suggested asking folks at MTFCA. You all classify as 'folks on MTFCA'.

I did not email Ford Corporate - because the archives are where corporate sent the records - that burned in 1970

MTFCA Board is my next try. They might know something I could try. Thank you again.

[lirogo27]

FYI

https://www.thehenryford.org/collection ... on-records

Which models have production information available?
In the summer of 1970, a museum fire destroyed many Ford Motor Company production records. The table below indicates which records still exist.

If you do not see the make, model, serial number, or year your vehicle was made in the list below, we do not have production information for your vehicle.

We do not have production information for Ford Mustangs.

Please keep in mind that not all of the runs listed below are complete.

PRODUCTION CARDS



Model Years Covered

ID or SERIAL no.

Ford Model T

1909-1911

1,119 to 70,920

Lincoln Model K

1936-1939

Model K 5711 to K 9674

Lincoln

1940-1942
1946-1948

H 86200 to H 136254
H 136255 to H 182129

Lincoln Mark II

1956 only

C56-7-980 to C56-J-3348

Du Pont Motors Inc.

1919-1932

1-1000

LINCOLN LEDGERS

Ledger #0 Leland Ownership

1920-1922

1 to 3208

Ledgers #1-10 (repeats Leland and continues on with Ford)

1920-1932

Model L 1 to 72010

Ledger #11

1931-1932

Model KB 1 to KB 1630

Ledger #12

2/3/1928-3/29/1931

Some parts change notes, 1928 show motor numbers

Ledgers #13-39

1936-1942

circa model H1 to H136254

Binders #1-2

1920-1931

Model L 1 to 65687

Binder #3

1931-1935

Model L 66001 to 72041
And K, KA, KB

Ledger #113

1928-1932
1932-1934

Shipping Dates Model L
Shipping Dates Model KA

Ledger #114

1931-1934
1935-1939

Shipping Dates Model KB
Shipping Dates Model K


What production information will I find?
The information that is found in the production records varies depending on the type and time period of the vehicle. However, records may include the serial and model type/number, assembly date, color and trim information, ship date and accessories.

Details on the shipment of a vehicle to a branch or dealer are sometimes noted on a record.

We typically do not have information on the original or subsequent owners of the vehicles.

How are the production records stored?
The Model T records are stored on microfilm.

The other production records can be found on the original cards, order sheets, or ledgers.

How can I order production card information?
Complete and return the Production Record Order Form along with payment, $35.00 per vehicle.

Provide your serial number, make, model and body type (for Lincolns), and contact information.

Note how you would like the material delivered.

Payment may be made either by check payable to “The Henry Ford” or by credit card.

Benson Ford Research Center
The Henry Ford
20900 Oakwood Blvd
Dearborn, MI 48121-1970
Phone: 313-982-6020
Fax: 313-982-6244
Email: research.center@thehenryford.org

How will I receive the production information?
You will receive either a photocopy or scan of the original card or information transcribed from the original ledgers onto prepared forms.

For Model T records, which are available only on microfilm, you will receive the best possible copies made from the microfilm printer as well as a transcribed version of the card.

What other information is available?
Although we do not have production records for the Ford Model A or V8, we do have engine ledgers that show when an engine number was produced. The ledgers do not include information on when the engine was put together with the vehicle.

We also have a database with shipping dates for early Ford models (1904-1910), which includes the model number and information on where the vehicle was sold.

Where can I go for more information?
Ford Model T engine production dates are available on the website of the Model T Ford Club of America’s http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm and also in the book Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World by Bruce McCalley (Iola, WI: Krause Publications, c1994).

Ford Model A engine production dates (month and year) are available in the book The Ford Model "A": "As Henry Built It": A Color, Upholstery and Production Facts Book by George DeAngelis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., 1991.).

Ford V8 and Model B engine production dates through 1938 (month and year) are available in the book The Early Ford V-8 as Henry Built It: A Production Facts Book 1932-38 by Edward P. Francis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., c1982.).

The following books from the Car & Parts Magazine Matching Numbers Series can help you decode VIN numbers:

Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1950-1959
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1960-1969
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1970-1979
Catalog of Chevelle, Malibu & El Camino ID Numbers, 1964-87
Catalog of Chevy Truck ID Numbers 1946-1972: Pickup, Suburban and El Camino
Catalog of Ford Truck ID Numbers, 1946-1972: Pickup and Ranchero
Catalog of Camaro ID Numbers 1967-93
Catalog of Chevy V8 Engine Casting Numbers 1955-93
Catalog of Corvette ID Numbers 1953-93
Catalog of Firebird ID Numbers, 1967-93
Catalog of Mustang ID Numbers, 1964 1/2-93
Catalog of Oldsmobile 4-4-2, W-Machines & Hurst/Olds ID Numbers 1964-1991
Catalog of Pontiac GTO ID Numbers 1964-74
Catalog of Thunderbird ID Numbers 1955-93


Ford production reports from 1967-1979 may be available through the commercial services of Marti Auto Works (http://www.martiauto.com/).

The following website can help you decode the VIN number of your post-1982 Ford vehicle (https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/ ... efault.asp).

Related Content
What if Henry Ford never finished building his first automobile?
What If

Historic Innovator: Henry Ford
Historic Visionaries

First Ford Model T Production Card, September 27, 1908
Artifact

The Henry Ford
Visit
Plan Your Visit
Henry Ford Museum of American Innovation
Greenfield Village
Ford Rouge Factory Tour
Giant Screen Experience
Venue Operations & Safety Protocols
Explore
Stories of Innovation
Inside The Henry Ford
Innovation Nation
Recipes & Cookbooks
Blog
Social Justice and Injustice
THF Conversations
Current Events
Calendar
Kids Activities
Collections & Research
Digital Collections
Digital Resources
Services
About Us
Education - inHub
inHub Overview
Experiences & Field Trips
Curriculum Resources
Invention Convention Worldwide
Innovation Learning
Summer Camps
About The Henry Ford
Mission & Vision
Board of Trustees
Annual Reports
Employment & Volunteering
The Henry Ford & the Community
Press Room
Farm to School Lunch Across America
NAGPRA
Contact Us
History & Mission
Tickets Membership Support Shop Host an Event Charitable Registration Disclosure Careers Member Login
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Policies Copyright Policy Privacy Sitemap Terms of Use
20900 Oakwood Boulevard, Dearborn, MI 48124‑5029

Contact Center: 313-982-6001
Contact Center Hours: Monday–Friday 9:00 a.m. – 5:00 p.m.
Saturday 9:00 a.m. – 3:00 p.m.
Sunday 9:00 a.m. – 1:00 p.m.


By clicking “Accept All Cookies”, you agree to the storing of cookies on your device to enhance site navigation, analyze site usage, and assist in our marketing efforts.

George John. Yes, that is From the Ford Historical Archives main page. All that is copied from the research center webpage. The first two sentences note the fire in 1970 that wiped out everything except certain Lincoln cars and Ts from 1909-1911. Mine is a 1926 so I am out of luck. But thank you. I also have McCalley and nothing of course in there other than the tables of serial numbers and which month it tracks to.

[lirogo27]

It is doubtful if a Genealogy of a "title/registration" number can be constructed for a car manufactured prior to 1981. Here's why.

Back in the day: Paper copies of Titles were likely filed by Make, Model, & a number (engine, chassis, body, etc) in file cabinets within each State.
Now it should be recognized that at this time different manufacturers could use the same "numbers" as another manufacturer without any problems because the high order of the filling system was by Make & Model. Over the years the "number" on the Title evolved from "engine number" to eventually called a "serial number".

A VIN format were first used in 1954 in the United States. From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers and even divisions within a manufacturer used different formats. These "formats" are often refereed to as "smart numbers" in that the position of each or pattern of values has a specific meaning. It was necessary to have reference document to know what the pattern was & what each value meant. Having said that: If someone, like dealers & mechanics, working with these values, day to day, could remember their meaning.

So at this time there is a mix of number patterns in various State filing systems & possible in a some State's having a computerized database with the advent of the centralized computer system, mid 1960's.

The NTHSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) database established in 1970 was only created to record information about crashes, not car ownership.

It wasn't until 1992 that Congress passed the Anti-Car Theft Act, and then amended it in 1996, to address issues like thieves selling stolen vehicles in different states under new titles by authorizing the U.S. Department of Justice to establish a national system for exchanging information about vehicle titles. The National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) is the national database that provides vehicle title information, including whether a vehicle has been in a salvage yard or declared a total loss. This was created in 1992

While a vehicle's identification number (VIN) is a unique identifier that can be used to track a car's history, including its make, model, manufacturing plant, and title history. The most common VIN format is 17 digits, which became standard for all vehicles manufactured since January 1981. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 may have as few as 5 digits to as many as 13 digits

So the question is how did the Title (ownership) information migrate to the current NMVTIS VIN database. Did some States just wait for a car to get a license plate or car purchase to load data into the new system after verifying it?

I was unable to find out what specific information is kept for each VIN just some high level info. It does not have previous owner information but does have "state" like 'flood", "salvage" etc. Also some data privacy regulations are applied to owner data.

The VIN numbers are stored left justified irrespective of when the number was issued. So it is possible for a number to exist when titling another vehicle for the first time, only to find out it was for a different manufacturer back in the day.

FRANK! My favorite steering column guy! Thanks for the info above and I loved the history. Yes, the above makes it difficult. Lots of sites need the full 14 or 16 digit serial that modern cars have. Obviously most T serials are the engine or frame numbers. Clearly there are outliers, but most don't have conventional numbers. Was hoping there was a site you all have tried or paid for that gave some good info. Also, the searcher would have to know which state the car started in to even have a remote chance of success for DMV related searches. if a T is 100 years old - that could be quite a few states it could traverse. NMVTIS - I looked at that the other day. There are links to search places you can try placing an order through. Again, many of those sites want conventional VINs. I am going to reach out to the 3 or 4 main insurance companies that insure classic cars to see if they have suggestions for a search service that covers the US.

[lirogo27]

I have an old ledger from a Ford dealership in Tenn.
It has engine numbers, what car or truck is and accessories owners bought. Also what they traded in too.
Mid 20’s to Model A.

How did you get ahold of that? And did your car start out in Tenn? You are listed as being in Alabama I believe. I would have to know what state my car started out in to try to locate ledgers from old dealerships. I wonder if there is a dealership archive by some unknown state agency? If the Ford Archives for all but 1909-1911 had not burned, The Ford archives would have that info. Hmmm.

[lirogo27]

A needle in a haystack BUT the only way you could track a Model T is if it has been kept in the same family. There are a few out there but not many. My Grandfather bought his 24 Coupe from a farmer in 1942. He left it to me when I was around 10 as I remember. It actually went to my Father in his estate. It’s been here on the farm ever since. But before 1942 who knows.
Here in Texas auto records only go back 25 years.

ONLY 25 years is I believe 5x more than most states! Yes I agree a needle but I do want to try a bit to do a bit of sherlock holmesing.

[lirogo27]

Perhaps most states purge records, but our great State of Florida may assist early auto owners, if the FL registered early auto survives, these on-line hand written records list engine serial numbers, so hand searching could find original owner.

Records are by calendar date of registration, mfg model, mfg numbers, mfg name, owners name and address. Pretty cool these records survived and preserved by FL


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/346940

Dan, Ok THAT is VERY, VERY, VERY COOL!. Although i would have to know where car started and if it traveled across the states then I would need to know the state! Let me see what agency handles the Florida records you note in your post, But again, would need to know which of 50 states. well, likely we can count out Hawaii and Alaska.....so let's say 48 states!

[Steve Jelf]

I also have McCalley and nothing of course in there other than the tables of serial numbers and which month it tracks to.

This refers to the truncated MTFCA version found on this website. The full digital edition lists serial numbers by day, not only month. In fact, you can sometimes make a pretty good guess as to the shift when a particular engine was made (day, 4 to 12, or graveyard).

[TRDxB2]

The pieces of the puzzle that always will be missing has to do with privacy laws.

The Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA) is a federal law that protects personal information in driver's licenses and motor vehicle records:
The DPPA was passed in 1994 to limit the release of personal information from driver's licenses and motor vehicle records.
The DPPA allows the release of personal information in certain circumstances, including:
For use by a court or agency in carrying out its functions
For matters of automobile and driver safety
For legitimate business purposes, research, or marketing, subject to certain limitations
For claims investigation or antifraud activities by insurers

Another example of needed data to track individuals & perhaps family knowledge about where a vehicle may be
Census records are not public until 72 years after the decennial census, when they are transferred to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) for permanent storage and made available to the public". For the purpose of car purchases: certain "approved" companies have access to the NMVTIS database but only to see "current owner" & "lean holder"

[lirogo27]

I also have McCalley and nothing of course in there other than the tables of serial numbers and which month it tracks to.

This refers to the truncated MTFCA version found on this website. The full digital edition lists serial numbers by day, not only month. In fact, you can sometimes make a pretty good guess as to the shift when a particular engine was made (day, 4 to 12, or graveyard).

by day? I did not see that in my mccalley disc. Will open and review. That would be great!

[lirogo27]

The pieces of the puzzle that always will be missing has to do with privacy laws.

The Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA) is a federal law that protects personal information in driver's licenses and motor vehicle records:
The DPPA was passed in 1994 to limit the release of personal information from driver's licenses and motor vehicle records.
The DPPA allows the release of personal information in certain circumstances, including:
For use by a court or agency in carrying out its functions
For matters of automobile and driver safety
For legitimate business purposes, research, or marketing, subject to certain limitations
For claims investigation or antifraud activities by insurers

Another example of needed data to track individuals & perhaps family knowledge about where a vehicle may be
Census records are not public until 72 years after the decennial census, when they are transferred to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) for permanent storage and made available to the public". For the purpose of car purchases: certain "approved" companies have access to the NMVTIS database but only to see "current owner" & "lean holder"

thank you!

[Steve Jelf]

...by day? I did not see that in my mccalley disc.

Yep.

[ModelT46]

Here is what I know about my 1910 Touring.
May 1910 sold tp George Adams Automobnile dealer, Elgin Ill.
Found in Chicago, Ill 1931
1931 to Sept 24, 1946. Pure Oil Company. Minneapolis, MN
1946 to the present: Darel Leipold.
This 1910 at the present is in our garage in Orono, Minnesota.

[lirogo27]

...by day? I did not see that in my mccalley disc.

Yep.



Screen Shot 2024-10-24 at 7.57.22 AM.png

Ok. Let me pull it up again tomorr! Will see! Thx steve

[lirogo27]

Here is what I know about my 1910 Touring.
May 1910 sold tp George Adams Automobnile dealer, Elgin Ill.
Found in Chicago, Ill 1931
1931 to Sept 24, 1946. Pure Oil Company. Minneapolis, MN
1946 to the present: Darel Leipold.
This 1910 at the present is in our garage in Orono, Minnesota.

Darel! You have owned your car 78 years?! Did you obtain the pre 1931 info from Ford Archives? Or the person you bought car from in 1946? Congrats for longevity! ( Yours and your car's with you). That is amazing.

[Daisy Mae]

My 26 TT Closed Cab (that I sold 5 yrs ago) I was the 4th Titled owner.
It was built in Aug '25, and purchased in Oakland CA by Douglas Parcel Delivery. It saw commercial service up to WWII, where the story was related to me that the older fleet vehicles were sent to scrap for the war effort. However, the second owner, an employee of Douglas, saved the truck purchasing it from his employer. It was never restored, ultimately being passed to his son, who I purchased it from in 1981, in the same (well worn) condition it was in when it left svc at Douglas. This pic as found when I purchased.

My 29 Model A Roadster (engine) was built May 29, 1929. One special attribute of this date is that it was also the same date/yr my wife's Dad was born! It was purchased new in Omaha NE. The family owned a farm, and it was the wife's car, only being used to go to church/town on Sundays. The car was basically stored away in the barn unused during most of the depression, and saw little use after that. It was passed to their son, who restored it in the 80's, and when he passed it went to his son, who put it in storage and never used it. After being a one family owned vehicle across three generations, all in Omaho, it was put up for sale. The sad part in my mind being that there were 7 siblings of that 3rd generation, and countless 4th gen...and yet nobody wanted a car that had been in the same family since new!!!! Talk about a lost family heirloom! But there was only 1900 miles on the OD. This pic as I bought it, where the 80's restoration, as was typical then, gussied it up to appear as a Deluxe.

My 14 Touring (engine) was built Mar 2nd, and purchased new in Decator MI. One interesting attribute was that the car was driven from Decator to Colorado Springs to attend the inaugural Pikes Peak Race in 1916. The original owner's neighbors had a son who was 7 when they purchased the T, and he fell in love with the car, and as he got older would always offer to buy the car, being successful in buying it for $10 in 1930. The young second owner used the car while in college, but then settled down on a farm in Paw Paw MI, where the car was then stored in a barn, not seeing the light of day until the late 60's when he did a partial restoration in his retirement. But he went blind before he could finish, and the car went back to storage. It was then passed to his son, who did nothing with the car, and I bought it from him. The car, other than some minor restoration, remained in basically the same condition it was when it was put to bed in the 30's, these pics being original condition rolled out the first time in the 60's, and then put back to bed after a partial restoration.

[lirogo27]

My 26 TT Closed Cab (that I sold 5 yrs ago) I was the 4th Titled owner.
It was built in Aug '25, and purchased in Oakland CA by Douglas Parcel Delivery. It saw commercial service up to WWII, where the story was related to me that the older fleet vehicles were sent to scrap for the war effort. However, the second owner, an employee of Douglas, saved the truck purchasing it from his employer. It was never restored, ultimately being passed to his son, who I purchased it from in 1981, in the same (well worn) condition it was in when it left svc at Douglas. This pic as found when I purchased.
20210707_183418.jpg
Screenshot_20240416_083824_Gallery.jpg


My 29 Model A Roadster (engine) was built May 29, 1929. One special attribute of this date is that it was also the same date/yr my wife's Dad was born! It was purchased new in Omaha NE. The family owned a farm, and it was the wife's car, only being used to go to church/town on Sundays. The car was basically stored away in the barn unused during most of the depression, and saw little use after that. It was passed to their son, who restored it in the 80's, and when he passed it went to his son, who put it in storage and never used it. After being a one family owned vehicle across three generations, all in Omaho, it was put up for sale. The sad part in my mind being that there were 7 siblings of that 3rd generation, and countless 4th gen...and yet nobody wanted a car that had been in the same family since new!!!! Talk about a lost family heirloom! But there was only 1900 miles on the OD. This pic as I bought it, where the 80's restoration, as was typical then, gussied it up to appear as a Deluxe.
Screenshot_20230120-154400_Chrome.jpg

My 14 Touring (engine) was built Mar 2nd, and purchased new in Decator MI. One interesting attribute was that the car was driven from Decator to Colorado Springs to attend the inaugural Pikes Peak Race in 1916. The original owner's neighbors had a son who was 7 when they purchased the T, and he fell in love with the car, and as he got older would always offer to buy the car, being successful in buying it for $10 in 1930. The young second owner used the car while in college, but then settled down on a farm in Paw Paw MI, where the car was then stored in a barn, not seeing the light of day until the late 60's when he did a partial restoration in his retirement. But he went blind before he could finish, and the car went back to storage. It was then passed to his son, who did nothing with the car, and I bought it from him. The car, other than some minor restoration, remained in basically the same condition it was when it was put to bed in the 30's, these pics being original condition rolled out the first time in the 60's, and then put back to bed after a partial restoration.
20240513_100610.jpg20240513_102506.jpg

WOW! I wish I had that kind of information!!!!!!! Thanks for sharing

[lirogo27]

FYI

https://www.thehenryford.org/collection ... on-records

Which models have production information available?
In the summer of 1970, a museum fire destroyed many Ford Motor Company production records. The table below indicates which records still exist.

If you do not see the make, model, serial number, or year your vehicle was made in the list below, we do not have production information for your vehicle.

We do not have production information for Ford Mustangs.

Please keep in mind that not all of the runs listed below are complete.

PRODUCTION CARDS



Model Years Covered

ID or SERIAL no.

Ford Model T

1909-1911

1,119 to 70,920

Lincoln Model K

1936-1939

Model K 5711 to K 9674

Lincoln

1940-1942
1946-1948

H 86200 to H 136254
H 136255 to H 182129

Lincoln Mark II

1956 only

C56-7-980 to C56-J-3348

Du Pont Motors Inc.

1919-1932

1-1000

LINCOLN LEDGERS

Ledger #0 Leland Ownership

1920-1922

1 to 3208

Ledgers #1-10 (repeats Leland and continues on with Ford)

1920-1932

Model L 1 to 72010

Ledger #11

1931-1932

Model KB 1 to KB 1630

Ledger #12

2/3/1928-3/29/1931

Some parts change notes, 1928 show motor numbers

Ledgers #13-39

1936-1942

circa model H1 to H136254

Binders #1-2

1920-1931

Model L 1 to 65687

Binder #3

1931-1935

Model L 66001 to 72041
And K, KA, KB

Ledger #113

1928-1932
1932-1934

Shipping Dates Model L
Shipping Dates Model KA

Ledger #114

1931-1934
1935-1939

Shipping Dates Model KB
Shipping Dates Model K


What production information will I find?
The information that is found in the production records varies depending on the type and time period of the vehicle. However, records may include the serial and model type/number, assembly date, color and trim information, ship date and accessories.

Details on the shipment of a vehicle to a branch or dealer are sometimes noted on a record.

We typically do not have information on the original or subsequent owners of the vehicles.

How are the production records stored?
The Model T records are stored on microfilm.

The other production records can be found on the original cards, order sheets, or ledgers.

How can I order production card information?
Complete and return the Production Record Order Form along with payment, $35.00 per vehicle.

Provide your serial number, make, model and body type (for Lincolns), and contact information.

Note how you would like the material delivered.

Payment may be made either by check payable to “The Henry Ford” or by credit card.

Benson Ford Research Center
The Henry Ford
20900 Oakwood Blvd
Dearborn, MI 48121-1970
Phone: 313-982-6020
Fax: 313-982-6244
Email: research.center@thehenryford.org

How will I receive the production information?
You will receive either a photocopy or scan of the original card or information transcribed from the original ledgers onto prepared forms.

For Model T records, which are available only on microfilm, you will receive the best possible copies made from the microfilm printer as well as a transcribed version of the card.

What other information is available?
Although we do not have production records for the Ford Model A or V8, we do have engine ledgers that show when an engine number was produced. The ledgers do not include information on when the engine was put together with the vehicle.

We also have a database with shipping dates for early Ford models (1904-1910), which includes the model number and information on where the vehicle was sold.

Where can I go for more information?
Ford Model T engine production dates are available on the website of the Model T Ford Club of America’s http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm and also in the book Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World by Bruce McCalley (Iola, WI: Krause Publications, c1994).

Ford Model A engine production dates (month and year) are available in the book The Ford Model "A": "As Henry Built It": A Color, Upholstery and Production Facts Book by George DeAngelis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., 1991.).

Ford V8 and Model B engine production dates through 1938 (month and year) are available in the book The Early Ford V-8 as Henry Built It: A Production Facts Book 1932-38 by Edward P. Francis (South Lyon, Mich.: Motor Cities Pub. Co., c1982.).

The following books from the Car & Parts Magazine Matching Numbers Series can help you decode VIN numbers:

Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1950-1959
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1960-1969
Catalog of American Car ID Numbers 1970-1979
Catalog of Chevelle, Malibu & El Camino ID Numbers, 1964-87
Catalog of Chevy Truck ID Numbers 1946-1972: Pickup, Suburban and El Camino
Catalog of Ford Truck ID Numbers, 1946-1972: Pickup and Ranchero
Catalog of Camaro ID Numbers 1967-93
Catalog of Chevy V8 Engine Casting Numbers 1955-93
Catalog of Corvette ID Numbers 1953-93
Catalog of Firebird ID Numbers, 1967-93
Catalog of Mustang ID Numbers, 1964 1/2-93
Catalog of Oldsmobile 4-4-2, W-Machines & Hurst/Olds ID Numbers 1964-1991
Catalog of Pontiac GTO ID Numbers 1964-74
Catalog of Thunderbird ID Numbers 1955-93


Ford production reports from 1967-1979 may be available through the commercial services of Marti Auto Works (http://www.martiauto.com/).

The following website can help you decode the VIN number of your post-1982 Ford vehicle (https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/ ... efault.asp).

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yup. the 1926 info is not available. It burned in the fire

[KimDobbins]

Many years ago when you could actually go into the Ford archives and search, I found all the original stock certificates from Ford motor company in 1903, the original 1903 sales ledger which the head archivist said was burned in the fire.
I was also able to find the original owners name of my 1910 touring in the Wisconsin state archives in Madison.
There are also early auto license records available in Minnesota.

[Allan]

In 2017 when I got Henrietta, my barn fresh 1925 tourer converted into a buckboard, she came with an envelope containing the new registration decal for 1955 which had never been put on the windscreen. The original hand typed registration certificate was there too, with the illegible last digit of the engine number deleted. Included was a typed letter from the farm supplies agency stating that the registration fee of 6 pounds had been paid out of the farm account.That was half the usual fee because she was for farm use, but still a considerable amount in 1955.

Up until the late 20's, the local Auto club used to publish a list of all the new cars sold in any given month, complete with registration number, make of car, and the buyer's name. With her registration number, the National Motor Museum in Birdwood was able to tell me from their digitised copies of these magazines that Henrietta was first registered in February 1926 to W G Webb of Halbury. He died in 1928 while his wife Henrietta was pregnant with their ninth child, and that child was the father of the lady who sold me the car. After W.G and Henrietta, I am just the second registered owner of the car.

Two locals in the Halbury area have shed more information on the Webb family Henrietta had two other given names. She was known as Flo, presumably a shortened version of Florence, her third name. I think Henrietta suits the car better.

I have posted some of this before. This was seen on the forum by a gentleman in Canberra, our National Capital. He phoned me one night and in a long conversation, it turned out he was a son of one of Ken's elder siblings. He revealed that when Henrietta died, they could not locate my Henrietta. To finalise the estate the old Ford was deemed to be of no value and no consideration was to be made. To quote my caller, "It looks like uncle Ken knew where it was all along."

I would like to know just when she was converted to a buckboard for farm use. Whoever did it was more of a carpenter than a farmer. The workmanship shows real real talent. it is the work of a craftsman rather than a handyman.

Allan from down under.

[lirogo27]

In 2017 when I got Henrietta, my barn fresh 1925 tourer converted into a buckboard, she came with an envelope containing the new registration decal for 1955 which had never been put on the windscreen. The original hand typed registration certificate was there too, with the illegible last digit of the engine number deleted. Included was a typed letter from the farm supplies agency stating that the registration fee of 6 pounds had been paid out of the farm account.That was half the usual fee because she was for farm use, but still a considerable amount in 1955.

Up until the late 20's, the local Auto club used to publish a list of all the new cars sold in any given month, complete with registration number, make of car, and the buyer's name. With her registration number, the National Motor Museum in Birdwood was able to tell me from their digitised copies of these magazines that Henrietta was first registered in February 1926 to W G Webb of Halbury. He died in 1928 while his wife Henrietta was pregnant with their ninth child, and that child was the father of the lady who sold me the car. After W.G and Henrietta, I am just the second registered owner of the car.

Two locals in the Halbury area have shed more information on the Webb family Henrietta had two other given names. She was known as Flo, presumably a shortened version of Florence, her third name. I think Henrietta suits the car better.

I have posted some of this before. This was seen on the forum by a gentleman in Canberra, our National Capital. He phoned me one night and in a long conversation, it turned out he was a son of one of Ken's elder siblings. He revealed that when Henrietta died, they could not locate my Henrietta. To finalise the estate the old Ford was deemed to be of no value and no consideration was to be made. To quote my caller, "It looks like uncle Ken knew where it was all along."

I would like to know just when she was converted to a buckboard for farm use. Whoever did it was more of a carpenter than a farmer. The workmanship shows real real talent. it is the work of a craftsman rather than a handyman.

Allan from down under.

great to hear. i wish that was the case here! that is amazing.

[lirogo27]

Many years ago when you could actually go into the Ford archives and search, I found all the original stock certificates from Ford motor company in 1903, the original 1903 sales ledger which the head archivist said was burned in the fire.
I was also able to find the original owners name of my 1910 touring in the Wisconsin state archives in Madison.
There are also early auto license records available in Minnesota.

the early model ts archives did not burn. someone also confirmed same above by noting what still existed which was not burned. your year you lucked out. not som much for the 90% rest of us

Kim- your acct states you too are in CA? you mention both Wisconsin and MINN. How did you trace your car from CA, to MN, to WI?

Mr. drobnick above lists from the Ford folks what records did not burn. the link is below....

https://www.thehenryford.org/collection ... on-records