Using A Brass Plate When Changing Engine Numbers

[ModelTWoods]

Earlier this year (as I remember) I posted about restamping a block. Several members stated that rather than restamping the pad on the block, directly, that they used a thin piece of brass, cut to the shape of the pad and stamped the new number on the brass plate. then, they glued the brass plate to the pad above the water inlet and painted it to match the engine.
I'm getting read to do this to a vaporizer block that was, according to the seller that I acquired it from, used as a stationary engine that ran long hours. This could be very true as the cylinder bores were worn so much, all four cylinders had to be sleeved back to standard. I have searched for my original post, but can't find it, so my questions are: 1. How thick a brass stock did you use? 2. Did you just form it to cover the number stamped on the block above the water inlet, or did you make it large enough to cover the water inlet boss and the number pad with one continuous piece of brass. 3. I if covered only the number pad, did you mill the pad down the thickness of the brass so the brass plate was smooth and even with the water inlet boss?

[Allan]

Terry, I used just one piece of brass which was cut/shaped to conform with the whole boss, including the water out;et. That way the plate is held in place by the outlet bolts. The brass is approx. 1/16" thick. I stamp the plate with the required number. This will distort it somewhat from flat, but it can be tapped down flat again of after being numbered.I fit the plate and water outlet with a coat of black silicone gasket maker next to the block, and the usual gasket between the plate and the outlet. Smear the excess silicone around the perimeter of the plate and you won't know it is there.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Terry, my advice on this is probably controversial, but just whom are you trying to convince with that number? If it is the DMV or your insurance provider, that brass tag will be useless!! Matter of fact, likely it will be such a 'red flag' that it will likely cause you more issues than you would have if you just had the incorrect number on the engine block.

If you feel compelled to display a number, then remove the existing number from the engine block and deface the pad with a needle scaler. Then purchase one of the early brass tag (https://cdn.modeltford.com/i/c/476307l.jpg) and have a trophy shop or local machine shop engrave/stamp the number you are wanting. Then discretely affix the data plate to the firewall or healboard of your T. The less 'MacGyvered' you make the restamping, the less of a chance you will ever have anything said. Gluing a brass plate to the engine block will definitely have the look of MacGyver!

[RecklessKelly]

If the car was in a bad accident or got stolen and recovered, the brass plate would be a call for vin fraud. Best to restamp to look as authentic as possible.

[Mark Gregush]

If I was going to add a vin/serial number tag, I would put the tag in the same place as the 1926/27 on the right side frame rail.

[ModelTWoods]

OK, I see I have some who approve, and some who disapprove. I should have put this information in my original post, but forgot to. Here is the situation. When my Dad and I restored this 27 coupe (it was his father's car; my grandfather's car), we did a frame off restoration. After sandblasting the frame, no matter how hard we looked and tried, we could not find or see an original number stamped on the top of the right frame rail. To complicate matters, Grandfather had ruined the original block at some time (probably let it freeze) so he went and replaced the original block with a 1922 numbered bare block and used the crank, rods, pistons, pan, transmission, and possibly a few other parts from the original 27 motor, to throw together a "backyard motor". The engine number on the title to the car was changed to reflect the 22 engine number so in reality, we have no way to knowing the original 27 number. In the late 1960's when Dad and I restored the car (the first time), we went ahead and had the 22 block rebuilt even though it had a freeze crack about 12 inches long in a straight line, along the bottom of the water jacket on the driver's side of the block. We had the crack repaired with what looked like solder. It held for about 20 years before failing. After My Dad died, the car sat in the garage at my Mother's house until she died in 2008. Since then, in between four moves and heath issues including a quad bypass surgery in 2009, I have been slowly restoring the car to correct flaws in the first restoration, including new body work and paint, new interior, and a new 27 vaporizer rebuilt block to replace the cracked and incorrect 22 block. Since I didn't have the original serial number, I bought a rusted, cracked 27 block at Chickasha and will use the number from that block for the car since the rusted block is going to the metal recycler. I'm not trying to fool anyone about the engine number, but I have to have a 27 number to replace the 22 number that is on the current title. Yes, I could leave the 22 number on the title, but that is just as deceitful. The vaporizer block I am using, being a stationary engine has a non-Ford number stamped on the pad. It begins with "B" and only has about 5 numbers after that, so the stamped number is far from looking like a Ford number. This is why I want to change the block's number. If I knew a machine shop that would mill the pad to remove the current number I would, but I DON'T.

[John kuehn]

A good DMV inspector wouldn’t pass a car with a brass plate over the original engine number location. That’s a dead giveaway of possible fraud. My opinion. If you don’t have a original number to go by but have the correct year engine for the car carefully remove the number of the block and restamp the number you have on the title if you have one. Many a T block has been done that way. If your trying to restore a car as original as you can get it good luck with it being perfect. More than a few T’s have been built up with parts for a certain year and have an engine from that year range. The titles have usually come from a bonded title service.

[kmatt2]

Terry, As others have said, the brass plate over the original Ford number boss is a bad idea, it would be easy to spot by any offical checking the number. You don’t have to take the 1926-27 block that you are using back to the machine shop to remove the non Ford number. Get a good sharp mill file and a good right angle handle. Take the water inlet off the block and carefully and slowly file the old number off, the number stamping wouldn’t be that deep, be sure to file the complete boss and water inlet area. You should keep the cracked 1926-27 block that you are going to use the number off of, with the crack marked with some paint. Now you can stamp the good block with that number and not worry about how close the stamps you use are to the Ford stamps because you still have the damaged block in case something comes up. By the way you say that you are going to use a vaporizer carburetor so you would need a late 1926 engine number or a 1927 engine number so you should be ok if that junk block had a 1927 number even if the car is called a 1926 on your title. A 1927 car made in late 1926 could have had a later 1927 engine installed at some point. Enjoy your car and good luck at your State DMV.

[kmatt2]

That dreaded double post again.

[ModelTWoods]

Terry, As others have said, the brass plate over the original Ford number boss is a bad idea, it would be easy to spot by any offical checking the number. You don’t have to take the 1926-27 block that you are using back to the machine shop to remove the non Ford number. Get a good sharp mill file and a good right angle handle. Take the water inlet off the block and carefully and slowly file the old number off, the number stamping wouldn’t be that deep, be sure to file the complete boss and water inlet area. You should keep the cracked 1926-27 block that you are going to use the number off of, with the crack marked with some paint. Now you can stamp the good block with that number and not worry about how close the stamps you use are to the Ford stamps because you still have the damaged block in case something comes up. By the way you say that you are going to use a vaporizer carburetor so you would need a late 1926 engine number or a 1927 engine number so you should be ok if that junk block had a 1927 number even if the car is called a 1926 on your title. A 1927 car made in late 1926 could have had a later 1927 engine installed at some point. Enjoy your car and good luck at your State DMV.

I Had planned to try to remove the non-Ford number from my 27 block with a hand file or a Demel tool, even before I read the months earlier post about stamping a brass plate. After reading everyone's posts, i think I will revert back to that method. If any file marks are left with the file, I'll either go over the area lightly with a finer file or use a piece of Emory cloth attached to a small wooden block. As for legality, in Texas, even if you are changing the motor number on a title, it can be done (and I have done it previously) at my county office where title applications are made, prior to them going to the state for finalization.

[Allan]

Terry, a belt sander may be easier to get a flat surface for you to stamp onto, even if it is only used to finish off your file work.

Allan from down under.

[kmatt2]

Terry, I am glad to hear that everything will work out for you regarding the engine number and Texas title. Here in California the CHP & DMV won’t accept engine number changes anymore, they now make you get an assigned California VIN. Just another reason , of many reasons , to move out of California I guess.

[KBurket]

Link to previous discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41819&p=321840#p321840

[ModelTWoods]

Terry, a belt sander may be easier to get a flat surface for you to stamp onto, even if it is only used to finish off your file work.

Allan from down under.

Allen, you are correct, a belt sander would be easier than filing, but a table belt sander is out for obvious reasons and even most handheld belt sanders are so big and heavy that it might be hard to sand the inlet/pad surface evenly without letting the belt hit somewhere else on the block, causing an unwanted injury to the block. I am going to check and see if any company makes a mini handheld belt sander, however I hate to buy a expensive tool for one job. A couple of files and Emory cloth should be a lot cheaper.
Kevin, I just checked my title and the number on it is a 27 (although a early 27). According to the late Bruce McCalley, the approximate date turning from 26 to 27 production was around August 1,1926. When I had the number changed on the title the last time at my county office, it was changed from the 22 number to 14,384,xxx, which is a October 13, 1926 production number, so I'm good to go. I don't even have to use the "junk" engine number or change the title number. All I have to do is stamp the title number on the pad.

[Shannon_in_Texas]

Terry, you might consider using this:

https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-elect ... oogle&wv=4

I have one and it is really good for sanding down weld beads. I get replacement belts from Harbor Freight. They have cheaper ones but buy the slightly more expensive Baxter branded ones (usually those are by the air tools). Harbor Freight has their own band file and it has good reviews and is on sale (but ends today— order online!).

https://www.harborfreight.com/53-amp-12 ... 58155.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-x-1 ... gL1efD_BwE

[ModelTWoods]

Thanks for the tip, Shannon. I hate to buy a tool for one use so I'm going to try the files and Emory cloth, first.

[Allan]

Terry, once you have one, it will become a tool of choice lots of times.

Allan from down under.

[RecklessKelly]

I used to do alot of number stamping in molds, to change a number, or stamp into a new mold. Sometimes I would mess it up because the stamping is in mirror image and always on a curved surface. I got good at peening in the numbers and positioning the stamps to hide old numbers or the repairs. I used a drill blank with a spherical radius ground on the end to peen in the unwanted markings if they still had displaced material around the impression. On a block, you could peen the whole surface in with a round tool and it would look like a cast surface. Then restamp.

[John kuehn]

Terry
What ever way you put the number on don’t do it like the one on a block I’ve had for years. Maybe it worked way back when! But!??

[ModelTWoods]

Terry
What ever way you put the number on don’t do it like the one on a block I’ve had for years. Maybe it worked way back when! But!??

No John, I'm not redneck enough to do it with a pin center punch. I have a set of number stamps.

[RecklessKelly]

Unless youve got a good eye and steady hand... or an automated pin puncher.

[ModelTWoods]

Unless youve got a good eye and steady hand... or an automated pin puncher.

And a lot of time and patience.

[John kuehn]

You could make it decent looking by carefully drawing the number on with a small felt tip marker as a guide then using a slightly dull pin punch and laying the block flat on a stable work bench. That’s the hard way to do it. I think I’ve read on the forum that Ford used some sort of holder that held the number dies in place when the numbers were stamped on the engines. Others may know to be sure.

[RecklessKelly]

It would be good to draw a line at the top of the number location as a guide. I used to make a light impression with the punch and check it for straightness. If it was good, I would pick up the indent with the punch and make the final marking. If it was crooked I would make a correction by holding it in the offset position and restamping. Good idea to practice on a chunk aluminum or an old block first.

[kmatt2]

Make a stamping guide out of scrap angle iron or strap steel and drill mounting holes to mount guide using water inlet bolt holes. The following pictures of Ford assembly from around 1918-20 are taken from a Ford made movie on Model T assembly.

[Allan]

I have yet to see a T model engine number stamped all in line and all numbers standing straight up. If I was a DMV inspector and saw this, I would suspect something nefarious was afoot.

Allan from down under.

[Art Ebeling]

I agree that the numbers were not all straight, at least in the early years. The freshly painted block is mine and the other one is for sale on Marketplace. Arthttps://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/download/file.php? ... &id=202923

[ModelTWoods]

Make a stamping guide out of scrap angle iron or strap steel and drill mounting holes to mount guide using water inlet bolt holes. The following pictures of Ford assembly from around 1918-20 are taken from a Ford made movie on Model T assembly.

A guide made out of angle iron is exactly what I had in mind, even before you posted this.