Rivetless (?????) Band linings

[Daisy Mae]

OK, so in the aftermarket world of the Model T, with hundreds of vendors believing they could create something "new and improved", or, even wholly unique...my brain is scratched raw trying to figure out the possible engineering principle that could enable a tranny band to be "rivetless"!!!! What possible form of attachment could have been employed???

Just one of the kazillion Model T mysteries for sure....

Anyone ever hear of Brown's rivetless linings????
Hopefully an answer awaits...

[t-time]

period ads from other manufactures

[John kuehn]

That’s a new one for me! Hadn’t seen those before. If they would have success with them they would still be making them for sure!

[1925 Touring]

Youd think the bands would walk around on the drums and possibly get caught between them!

[Daisy Mae]

^^^
Was thinking the same thing....

[big2bird]

It didn't work, so it died, like many other bogus parts.

[ModelTWoods]

Maybe Super Glue wasn't such a recent invention ! Maybe it had a predecessor.

[jsaylor]

I tried a set of bands back in the late 60's that were caterpillar clutch lining bonded to the Model T band, no rivets. They worked well but were too harsh on the drums. I replaced with woven Kevlar. The bonding(glue) on old bonded bands is so well attached, I found it almost impossible nor worth my time to try to get it off, its permanent.

[TXGOAT2]

I've had excellent service over many miles with Kevlar bands. I don't drive in stop and go traffic, but I've driven a long way with no issues and no adjustment needed The low pedal goes about 1/2" closer to the floor than it did, and the others show no change.

[TXGOAT2]

Maybe carbon fiber bands with Kevlar lining would work well for the low and reverse. For the brake, a steel band with Kevlar lining would probably be best in order to help get rid of heat.

[John kuehn]

I wonder what Joe Snow would think of the Rivetless band linings.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Some of the posts above how it failed is interesting. In my line of work, we probably do as many, -if not more Model-A brake jobs than anyone in the country, -and for the past decade or so we have used a bonded Kevlar lining to the shoes. These linings are a soft(er) woven type that are necessary to keep squealing at bay on both Steel and Cast Iron drums instead of a harder material. The modern adhesives used to bond these linings are very good at securing the linings in very high friction temps. Another plus is, the brake lining we use is soft enough that it does not score the cast brake drum, so I doubt it would damage any of the other transmission drums due to the limited usage the band would be engaged. The only issue that would need to be researched is determining if the adhesive would be affected by being partially submerged in hot oil. Discussing this with the manufacturer might just give the green light for Model-T applications. Then either use the current Kevlar band linings with adhesive to bond the Kevlar to the bands, -or try the linings used in mechanical brake shoe applications.

[Daisy Mae]

Early versions of bonding, and the glues of the time, are certainly historical curiosities in their own right.
But the rivetless designs up for conjecture were not bonded....
Had to have been a unique connection method at the top, held in place only via torsional tension across the circumference of the band/drum given the small clearances, but also presenting risk of constant contact at least at one point

[TXGOAT2]

A carbon fiber band lined with Kevlar could be made springy enough to keep the lining clear of the drum. Heat and oil in the transmission would not affect the carbon fiber material. Next: Develop a finned metal brake band for the Model T....

[TXGOAT2]

It would be interesting to hear from someone who had first hand experience with the rivet-less linings back in the day.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Seems like a sound concept. Only “gripe” I have is whether they would release entirely, or have a bit of drag on drums constantly. ?? Guess we’ll never know. They never became popular, that’s sure. I had never heard of them before now.

[RajoRacer]

Kurt - I opened the box - they have a tin plate on both ends with a hole that the spring rides in - simply wrap the lining around the drum, insert pedal shaft & spring through the tin plate ???????????????????????????????????????? They do explain about shortening the low band adjuster and replacing it with a special washer ?????????????????????????????????

[John kuehn]

In the 1960’s and 70’s here in town there was a brake and clutch supply who used all kind of linings from commercial use and to automatic transmissions and etc. The owner was an antique car enthusiast who had a friend that raced a stripped down T (speedster these days) in early area round track racing. They experimented with different types on band material and wound up using automatic transmission band material in his later Model T restorations. This might a bit off subject but folks have used different ideas for transmission bands since the T era. Now we’re down to Kevlar, cotton and wood bands. I guess the Rivetless bands were a no-go.

[Daisy Mae]

Many thanks to Steve (RajoRacer) for sending me pics of an actual box, instructions, and bands of Brown's Rivetless bands. With so many aftermarket redesigned parts that came & went & lost to time, it's always amazing what still exists out there.... thanks Steve for taking the time to document these.

[big2bird]

Just imagine that brake lining wearing down thin, you do a panic stop and it snaps. Oh boy.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Just imagine that brake lining wearing down thin, you do a panic stop and it snaps. Oh boy.

Really no difference from burning out the lining in the stock band. No lining, no nuttin’. The seasoned T driver knows that if the brake band fails, stomping low and reverse at the same time will clamp up the driveline (not recommended). Panic stop ??? T’s were built for roads that wouldn’t allow for speeds much over 30. Then there’s the rubber to the road surface of less than one square foot. Go ahead and lock up your rear wheels. Now what ?

[big2bird]

You can tell when brakes are failing. Losing the band at once is another matter.

Yes, stomping them all is a cure,

[John Codman]

My only concern would be how the hot oil would affect the adhesive. Bonded linings were widely used at the end of the drum brake era. The early bonded linings had some issues with the bonding material, but the manufacturers solved that, and the bonded brake linings worked just fine.

[RajoRacer]

No adhesives on the "rivetless" linings above - the connections for the shafts were riveted.