Transmission issues

[nathanw90]

So, after a long winter off the road doing wheels, rear end, new axles and kingpins, took her for the first drive today.

Had a rotational knock noise only when rolling, and not consistent. Would happen once then fine for awhile. I thought possibly pin for the u joint slipping out. I was right. Fixed that. Drove it around again and after awhile, same noise again. Only when rolling. So I check the pin again, it's fine.

I now dig deeper. Took the cover off the hogs head and pressed each pedal. When I press reverse, I can see the tripod gear that's visible, move up and down. I thought to myself, that should happen! So I turn the engine over and check the others. Another was just as bad and the 3rd was as bad, but moved.

Engine and trans was professional rebuilt about 3 years ago. Was done by a guy who does mostly only T and A engines. Came recommended by Langs. He did say the trans looks to never of been touched. It did need bushings he said.

Always had a good oil level, use the Lucas classic car stuff. Changed it often. I'd say it has less than 500 miles on the rebuild.

I have a message into the rebuilder. See if he has any insight on what's going on.

Any suggestions?

[JTT3]

If I understood what your were trying to explain is that your triple gears are moving aft toward the drums & forward towards the flywheel on the triple gear pins. Is that correct? If so you may have some issues. The triple gears are only engaged in low & reverse however if not checked for correct tolerances (0.006-0.010) with new bushing you can have some slight movement but not much, if you used the old bushings and the flange face of the bushings are way below the minimum height you’ll have even more movement. Based on the information you gave that shouldn’t be the case. Other things to consider are loose pins, loose bushings in the triple gears because running tolerance were too tight & the bushings seized on the pins. In addition could be your clutch basket wasn’t properly spaced & locked down causing some drum float. If I’m not mistaken a clearance of 0.015-0.022 is within tolerance but if the clutch basket pin is not set correctly it can cause the drums to float a bit. In my opinion you should consider pulling the engine and check your transmission others may have a different opinion. Best John

[Dan McEachern]

Reach in and attempt to move each triple gear around and see if there is excessive slop of if you are able to move/rotate the gear from side to side (not rotate on the pin) or move it radially toward the outside of the flywheel. Check each one- its possible as John mentioned above that one of the triple gears seized on the shaft and spun the pin in the flywheel or the bushing has started to disintegrate. Just one thing to check before moving ahead. Best of luck!

[TXGOAT2]

Be sure your motor mounts are tight.

[J and M Machine]

Sounds like you'll have to pull the engine. and take the flywheel off and see what happened to the transmission.

If you 've changed the oil like you mention then this shouldn't of happened unless it had no oil in it or rebuilder didn't do it correctly.

[Greg sarky k]

Sounds like the engine was rebuilt incorrectly. If you can see the triple gears moving then the bushings are bad. This sounds like you need to replace the triple gear pins and bushings because they wear out together. Could also be transmission problems you are not yet aware of.
Here’s my suggestion if you don’t want anymore headaches, I would pull the engine and take it to J and M Machine in Southboro Ma which is not that far from you..They are a true top tier machine shop,true pros.They have done 4 T engines for me and I have never had any issues..

What happened to you should not happen but unfortunately it does..I don’t know who did your engine but I do know of one unscrupulous builder in Massachusetts so yeah, it happens.

Good luck.

[nathanw90]

If I understood what your were trying to explain is that your triple gears are moving aft toward the drums & forward towards the flywheel on the triple gear pins. Is that correct? If so you may have some issues. The triple gears are only engaged in low & reverse however if not checked for correct tolerances (0.006-0.010) with new bushing you can have some slight movement but not much, if you used the old bushings and the flange face of the bushings are way below the minimum height you’ll have even more movement. Based on the information you gave that shouldn’t be the case. Other things to consider are loose pins, loose bushings in the triple gears because running tolerance were too tight & the bushings seized on the pins. In addition could be your clutch basket wasn’t properly spaced & locked down causing some drum float. If I’m not mistaken a clearance of 0.015-0.022 is within tolerance but if the clutch basket pin is not set correctly it can cause the drums to float a bit. In my opinion you should consider pulling the engine and check your transmission others may have a different opinion. Best John

No, not only after and forward, but up and down significantly

[nathanw90]

Sounds like you'll have to pull the engine. and take the flywheel off and see what happened to the transmission.

If you 've changed the oil like you mention then this shouldn't of happened unless it had no oil in it or rebuilder didn't do it correctly.

Rebuilder claims quality of bushings may be the issue.

Will be pulling it this weekend and taking apart. Will come back and update with my findings.

[speedytinc]

Before pulling the motor, have a competent & knowlegable T mechanic like J & M look & confirm the problem.
Its only fair to see if the original builder will warrant his work.

.

[nathanw90]

Sounds like the engine was rebuilt incorrectly. If you can see the triple gears moving then the bushings are bad. This sounds like you need to replace the triple gear pins and bushings because they wear out together. Could also be transmission problems you are not yet aware of.
Here’s my suggestion if you don’t want anymore headaches, I would pull the engine and take it to J and M Machine in Southboro Ma which is not that far from you..They are a true top tier machine shop,true pros.They have done 4 T engines for me and I have never had any issues..

What happened to you should not happen but unfortunately it does..I don’t know who did your engine but I do know of one unscrupulous builder in Massachusetts so yeah, it happens.

Good luck.

J&M was my first quote, it's was more than the car was worth. I shopped around. Like I said, the rebuilder I chose has good reviews on here and came recommended.

I do know of that rebuilder you're talking about, tried them too, got an awkward response so I didn't proceed.

It went to NY for rebuild. Not naming because this isn't to bash anyone, just simply looking for insight.

[speedytinc]

With this new information, disregard my email.

Getting triple gear bushings correct & living long is a real technical skill unto itself.
They seem to be the weakest link, especially @ initial start up.

I will add, its not out of the realm of possibility to have a failure by operator error.
I once did a fellows THIRD succession triple gear bushing failure. Couldn't figure out why untill he picked up the finished T. The poor transmission screamed in agony as he backed out of my driveway. This fellow has big feet & cant see the pedals. He was engaging low & reverse simultaneously.
That tore the bushings up fast. Once made aware, no more worn out bushings/gears.

It is typical for a motor rebuild to cost more than you paid for the T.
$6k is cheap for a good, but not total overhaul. $10k in more realistic in TODAY's $$$.

[Dan McEachern]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6726&p=50746&hilit= ... ars#p50746

[TXGOAT2]

"So, after a long winter off the road doing wheels, rear end, new axles and kingpins, took her for the first drive today..."

What caused the triple gear issue to develop while the car was out of service for rear axle repairs?

Could there be some issue with the newly-overhauled rear axle?

[nathanw90]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6726&p=50746&hilit= ... ars#p50746

Dan, just pm'd you. Sorry didn't even realize that you replied!

[TXGOAT2]

Triple gear bushings need adequate lubrication, and using a high quality, light bodied oil with high film strength in a stock T should facilitate that. As I understand it, the triple gears are idle when running in "high". Using the correct oil and allowing the engine/transmission to warm up thoroughly before running hard or fast in low gear or reverse may help the bushings survive. Keeping speeds down when running in low is probably a good idea. Needle bearings are widely used in modern automatic transmissions, and they seem to hold up very well.

[Greg sarky k]

Well, maybe but I think you will find that the money you spend to get it fixed after the first guy messed it up and the new money you will pay someone who may able to do it correctly, will probably add up to be the same cost as a top machine shop like J and M.
So I understand the money issue but unfortunately for all of us ,the old adage still holds true. Good engine building isn’t cheap and cheap engine building isn’t good.

[RGould1910]

You said
"Rebuilder claims quality of bushings may be the issue."
Reminds me of the carpenter who kept bending nails while hammering studs who camplained. "Damn Chinese nails!"

[JTT3]

So i reread your post carefully and wanted to ask several questions without jumping the shark on the builder until you know what you don’t know. You said you rebuilt the rear axle, did that include the modern pinion set up with a locking collar for the preload? Generally speaking, did you use a new pin for the universal & peen it over on both sides or the original pin same process. You said you have about 500 miles on the engine, paraphrased, how many of those miles were prior to doing the things over the winter months for the T you mentioned but after the rebuild? Did you have any issues during those miles prior to the rear axle being rebuilt? A u joint pin that is not tight & peened in the orifice can be slung out and “can” wedge against the driveshaft bell housing doing real damage to the transmission if in low, reverse & even catastrophic to the total engine assembly in high though not typically. I asked about the modern pinion bearing assembly. If you did use it, the Allen head bolt can sit very proud and cause a knock against the drive shaft housing but I haven’t witnessed or heard of that stalling an engine. As long as the engine didn’t receive any damage, minus the transmission damage, a rebuild on the problem parts will not be too costly though time consuming & aggravating. You said you’re pulling the engine, do not disassemble the engine until you let the professional build inspect it. You don’t want to alter anything until they have done so if you expect them to warranty the build. If you are there during disassembly on the transmission a simple measurement on the triple gear bushing flange & pins will reveal a lot of information for you too consider. If you’ve decided to do disassemble disregarding any warranty, be sure to index the location of the transmission shaft to the crank shaft & the drive plate to the brake drum if it was aligned & balanced. Wishing you the best of luck & a well working T post repair. Best John

[nathanw90]

So i reread your post carefully and wanted to ask several questions without jumping the shark on the builder until you know what you don’t know. You said you rebuilt the rear axle, did that include the modern pinion set up with a locking collar for the preload? Generally speaking, did you use a new pin for the universal & peen it over on both sides or the original pin same process. You said you have about 500 miles on the engine, paraphrased, how many of those miles were prior to doing the things over the winter months for the T you mentioned but after the rebuild? Did you have any issues during those miles prior to the rear axle being rebuilt? A u joint pin that is not tight & peened in the orifice can be slung out and “can” wedge against the driveshaft bell housing doing real damage to the transmission if in low, reverse & even catastrophic to the total engine assembly in high though not typically. I asked about the modern pinion bearing assembly. If you did use it, the Allen head bolt can sit very proud and cause a knock against the drive shaft housing but I haven’t witnessed or heard of that stalling an engine. As long as the engine didn’t receive any damage, minus the transmission damage, a rebuild on the problem parts will not be too costly though time consuming & aggravating. Wishing you the best of luck & a well working T post repair. Best John

I believe that the drive shaft pin is completely unrelated. It was reused, peened, but I suppose not good enough. The car continued to move no problems.

The rear end was mostly cleaned, inspected, new seals, new good roller and sleeve on one side and new axles with new keyways.

I'm thinking the pins for the triple gears are the issue. Not well looked over possibly, and or the bushings not honed/reamed correctly.

Really interested in the triple gears with the needle bearings. Would certainly upgrade to that if the gentleman gets back to me.

I should have an update this weekend, once I have it out and apart!

[big2bird]

You will need a new flywheel and pins.
When the pins get loose, there is little you can do.

[JTT3]

Dan’s triple gear bearings are incredible, if you’ve decided to go that route buy his triple gear pins with the bearings. It’s really a must do unless you’re a glutton for punishment, ha!
Best John

[nathanw90]

Dan’s triple gear bearings are incredible, if you’ve decided to go that route buy his triple gear pins with the bearings. It’s really a must do unless you’re a glutton for punishment, ha!
Best John

That's the plan! I've reach out on here, email, next I'll call if I don't hear back by next week!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

You will need a new flywheel and pins.
When the pins get loose, there is little you can do.

Did somebody state that this is the problem?

[TXGOAT2]

You might try putting the car in "high", engine off, and have someone rock it forward and backward to see if the noise occurs, and you could also look into the transmission while the load is changing, and try applying the different bands while the car is being rocked. You might want to take out the spark plugs and have someone crank the engine while you observe the transmission's innards and apply the bands, etc. Cranking the engine with the rear wheels off the ground is another option. With the rear wheels off the ground, blocking one wheel and putting the car in gear and yanking the other wheel back and forth might help localize the sound.

[J and M Machine]

Before pulling the motor, have a competent & knowlegable T mechanic like J & M look & confirm the problem.
Its only fair to see if the original builder will warrant his work.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
If we look at it ,you know what we're going to find
Problem with a Model T is it all has to be done, there is no 50%. The first 50% will affect second 50% and vice versa.
If they didn't do transmission, though did engine part all the dirt from flywheel and magnets will reintegrate with the engine part.
As seen in submitted picture of babbitted rear main bearing with debris stuck in it as babbitt does.
You'll see the bronze speckles .
second picture is dirty transmission. Just can't expect to get these clean by washing alone.


Money well worth doing it right rather than doing it twice.

[RajoRacer]

That one has seen a few miles !