Rim Flaps

[Campbell Tellman]

I am confused. I am buying new tires and tubes for my 1916 Touring with wooden wheels. Do i want rim flaps between the inner tube and the wheel? Lang's says yes and others say no.
Thanks for the input.
Campbell Tellman II
Beaufort, NC

[Humblej]

No, not needed on the rim. Some put a flap between the tube and the tire. Not required, but I think it is easier to keep the tube tucked in and prevent pinching while installing the tire with a flap.

[RajoRacer]

I'm a flap guy when & where needed - been doing most of the local club's guys' tires for years - never had a do-over ! I do wires also but clearly those use rim strips !

[Allan]

Steve points out the difference between rim liners and flaps. I am firmly in the rim liner camp.
Allan from down under.

[mbowen]

I recently had what I thought was a simple flat tire, but evidently was a blowout (I found it while parked, and the tire was still fully on the demountable rim). The damage to the tube is on the inside diameter, so it just about has to be from chafing on the rim, or possibly some small foreign object (no rim liners). There’s weld spatter evenly distributed around the rim, but no apparent chafing anywhere else on the tube. Both the tire and tube had about 5000 miles since new, and I had never let the pressure get below 55 psi. I have rim liners on the way.

[frontyboy]

I've mentioned this before, I used black spray rubber sealer as advertised on TV. I spray this on the inside of the rim and up and around the underside of the rim. This accomplishes a couple of things, it insulates the rim from the innertube, and it helps the tire to grip the rim. As an additional help it stops the rim from bleeding rust down on the outside of the tire.

I have done this on both demountable rims, clinchers, and wire wheels with excellent results and no adverse effects over the years of touring. I also found with clincher tires when you mount the tire there is no gap between the inner edges of tire when inflated. This is why you have put a notch between the edges of the tire for the stem. I take the clincher tire and use a vise grip plier to keep the inner lips together. Then I use a sharp hole of the right size to drill a perfectly aligned hole for the tire stem to push through. So with the tire inflated to the proper pressure the tube can not creep out between the clincher edges of the tire.

just sayin'

frontyboy

[DHort]

Flaps go on wooden wheels. Langs does not recommend them just to get another sale. They want you to enjoy your car and not deal with flats.

[Allan]

Flaps go on split rims on 21" wooden wheels. they are to protect the tube from irregulariites at the rim joint.

Ford never used flaps or rim liners on clincher wheels. With varying degrees of decay on used rims today, it is a good idea to protect the tubes from any nicks, rust flakes etc. Rather than fork out hundreds of dollars on a set of flaps, I use a rim liner cut from a free used tube from my tyre dealer, or you can use a new bicycle tube to make a liner. They are a snap fit on the rim, so there is no displacement when fitting tyres. They don't add much weight either. They are re-usable over and over, and can be transferred from rim to rim. They help fill the bead on the rim which also helps the fit of today's skinny tyre beads. if you measure the width of the beads and the width of the rim, you will find there is plenty of room for the valve stem without making a notch, although I have had no experience with skinny 3" front wheels. Flaps do protect the tube somewhat if your tyre fitting technique is not up to snuff and you resort to levering on one side of the rim after the other.

It is in the interests of the vendors to sell you a set of flaps, even if there is no need. That's what marketing is all about.

Allan from down under.

[bobt]

I use motorcycle rim strips. the largest size and I enlarge the valve stem hole with a socket (used as a punch). bobt

[jiminbartow]

Absolutely. In all cases, especially if your rims are rusted and pitted. Flaps prevent punctures of the tube by sharp points inside the rim. I installed my last set of tires with flaps in 1970. They lasted for 53 years until I finally changed them out in 2023.

[Oldav8tor]

I've used flaps since the beginning. My front tires have 13,000 miles on them without issue, the rears had 11,000 before I changed them. IMO, flaps prevent the tube from being pushed down between the beads and possibly on the rim itself. It can chafe on both. If you don't have demountables, you may find yourself at the side of the road someday

fixing a flat. Flaps will help you avoid pinching the tube when you put everything back together.

[Allan]

I wish there was a way to have that erroneous drawing of a tube/flap assembly gone forever. It clearly shows the flap sandwiched between the tube and the bridge washer, making it an assembly. This is just plain wrong! The valve stem, bridge washer and nut have the task of jamming the tube and the flap to make a leak proof seal. Given the junk material used to make flaps today, and the thickness of same, getting the correct crush to make a seal is never going to happen, and if it does initially, it is not likely to be maintained. There is little elasticity in the flap "rubber." It is more likely to be displaced than crushed. Things may have been different in the old days when both tubes and flaps were reinforced with fabric layers.

Flaps and rim liners do the same things. They protect the tube from irregularities within the rim. Flaps will protect the tube from potential damage if your tyre fitting technique is wanting, but conversely, they inflict considerable damage to your bank bank balance. It is a matter of choice.

Allan from down under.

[Steve Jelf]

Did a new 1915 Ford come with flaps? Why not? If your rims are good enough...

[Scott_Conger]

If FORD had sold rims made from rough, previously rusty steel, fitted modern tires which did not fully encase the tube, and installed tissue-thin tubes similar to Hartfords, he sure as hell would have also added flaps in 1915.

Blockley tubes are recommended to NOT use flaps and based on their very hefty thickness, I tend to believe Blockley - and they're the ONLY tube I would chose to not run with a flap. Every other brand would and does, get a flap and I've never been let down by that decision in over 25 years of "T" driving.

It's advice totally lost on people who live to complain about cheaply made parts and then piss and moan about the cost to purchase an actual quality item - and if for some reason, god-forbid they purchased some "expensive" tubes, they'd immediately take a dull boy-scout knife to cut out the stem "because they're not the same size FORD used"

there is absolutely no making this group happy - so enjoy your flat tires. I for one have too little time left on this earth to waste it on fixing flats caused by sheer stubbornness, much less have extra time to cut the "wrong" stem out of perfectly superb Blockley tubes.

Finally, it's good sense to understand a subject that can be as confusing as the rim-flap, tire-flap subject and asking questions when you don't know, is wise. Questioning if Lang's is giving spurious or inaccurate advice is quite another thing. No one is infallible, but Lang's would not have the following or reputation that they do, if they were known to give bad advice. Their advice will hold up 99% of the time. The Forum on the other hand, will be a mixture of good and bad information even if the question was "who made Model "T"s?

[DanTreace]

Here's a really old time tire, with red tube, cut away to show flaps used in the T period.

Use flaps too, they help prolong tire life and resist tube fails, IMO

Have always using rubber stems, the rubber stems hold up.

For dress, add the faux dust cover that affix to the rubber stem valve thread for bit of authentic look.

[Mark Gregush]

Dan great cross section showing the flap.

[Allan]

Nice photo of an original cross section Dan. I note that even with the wide bead foot on that original tyre, there was no need to notch the beads to accommodate the valve stem.

I once bought two excellent rims with two as new, but extremely hard Good Year tyres that even had the blue and yellow flag motif on the sidewall. I fought those tyres off the rims, and salvaged two thick red rubber tubes that were also new. That was about 15 years ago and those tubes are still in use. I learned not to resort to a sawzall when a fellow I was helping on a restoration cut four tyres off, taking with them 4 excellent Olympic butyl rubber tubes. I hope your tube was already shot.

Note also that that flap has a fabric cover. A few years back mate of mine hung four new rubber flaps on a nail in his workshop. six months later they were al in a heap on the floor, having perished at the hanging point. i think they were made from floor sweepings at the tyre plant.

Allan from down under.

[Adam]

enjoy your flat tires. I for one have too little time left on this earth to waste it on fixing flats caused by sheer stubbornness

Scott said it all!

I’ve installed hundreds of T tires on rims over the last 25 years and all with flaps (split rims & clinchers). …And it has been EXTREMELY RARE that anyone had a tire problem.

The same couple of people have been posting multiple times to every thread mentioning rim flaps for the past 25+ years with their theory of how flaps are just a bonus sale for the tire vendors and pushing their “free homemade work-around” that “works just the same”. (even though it’s thin and installed completely different). Oh! And by the way, they are often fitting some old rock hard tires that need some “special procedure” to get the old hard shrunken tires to fit the rims.

[Campbell Tellman]

Thanks for all of the responses. I have a 1916 touring car with 35 year old Coker tires. They still have 55lbs of pressure but they are cracked near the bead. I will reuse part of the inner tubes to make a tire flap. I will probably use an adhesive to attach to the center of the wheel. Then I will use liberal talc to allow things to be assembled.
I am thankful for the experience in this group.
Campbell Tellman II
Beaufort, NC

[Erik Johnson]

If your car has been driven 35 years without tire flaps, why start now?

When you replace your tires and find out that the inside of the rims need a little attention, wire brush them by hand or with a wire wheel on a drill or angle grinder and then brush on a coat of Rustoleum rusty metal primer.

Also, don't use bead lube or soapy water - in my opinion that will just be trapped moisture and contribute to rim rust once the tires are mounted. Dust the tubes inside of the tires with tire talc - you don't need much.

Finally, a tip; it's much easier to remove and mount clincher tires with the wheels on the car.

[Scott_Conger]

Campbell, now that you have made your decision, know that:

1. rim flaps which you are planning on making/using absolutely do not belong on a clincher rim and may interfere with the seating of the tire bead to the rim...not for sure, but it is a risk.

2. tire flaps, which people speak of are massively thick items which fit between the tire and tube, protecting the tube from chafing on the rim or being cut by the inner edge of modern tires. Modern tires allow for a greatly increased extrusion and deformation of the tube out toward the rim which was greatly reduced or non-existent with original tires.

Not knowing the difference between a rim flap and tire flap is common in the hobby but that doesn't mean that randomly substituting one for the other makes a lot of sense, so make sure of what you're doing and have a good idea what exactly you are trying to accomplish and if you are going to accomplish that using the wrong product.

If you've decided to not buy tire flaps, so be it, but do not make the mistake of making or using a rim flap on a clincher rim. Those were and are meant only for split rim tires or, if your car really is a motorcycle, they're used to cushion the tube from the spokes.

FWIW - As far as using adhesive, there are myriad Forum posts regarding the use of Duct Tape as a liner, or using some sort of other goop/adhesive. Ultimately there are very few people who in time do not regret taking that path.

[Steve Jelf]

...it's much easier to remove and clincher tires with the wheels on the car.

Correct. Using the weight of the vehicle to do some of the work is better than wrestling with a rim on the ground.

Scott's comment on duct tape is also on the mark. When the stickum dries out and quits sticking, the tape can become a troublesome mess.

[RajoRacer]

For point of clarity - there are tire flaps & there are rim strips - two separate items with two separate purposes !

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Good god whatever you do don’t use what’s commonly known as duct tape. I had a hell of a mess years back when installing new tires on the ‘27 Tudor I had at the time. Literally decomposed. Dust and strings all stuck to the rim. Unholy mess. If you simply MUST go economy use the “real” duct tape. The aluminum stuff with the paper backing. It lasts forever.