Crazy? tow question

[varmint]

When you are driving along at speed and then put the Model T in neutral, so that it's coasting...the engine is turning but the rear wheels still going at speed, and this does not hurt the car?

Can't we flat tow the Model T in neutral with the engine running?

[speedytinc]

Yes. & you can tow in gear with the spark plugs removed.
The point is the engine needs to keep moving/splashing oil into the bearings.

[TXGOAT2]

"Coasting" in "neutral" will do no harm, AS LONG AS THE ENGINE IS RUNNING. There's no point to it though, unless you want to go very fast down a very steep hill.... which is a very bad idea. The Model T does not have a ball bearing throw out bearing... just a little fork-like thing. I don't think it was designed to be held in "neutral" for extended periods with the engine running.

[varmint]

Purchased a 5000 lbs rated flat tow package but the 1/2" bolts were a little short. The plates of steel were warped during manufacture from welding and not pecking in the welds before cooling. A large hammer made them fit flush against a straight edge. So, picked up some longer screws and went stainless steel, also chose carriage bolts for a cleaner look. Now, the round holes needs to be broached but I would rather use the 5/16" square file to dress up the corners than do the bulk of the work on metal this thick. Doing with what I've got on hand, I trimmed a metal cutting hacksaw blade to fit in a saber saw. It worked.

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[Jerry VanOoteghem]

As Pat pointed out, the throwout bearing is not intended to hold the transmission in neutral for extended periods while the car is moving. It's not a problem when holding in neutral while the car is stopped and idling, but when the car is being towed/moving, the throwout bearing is seeing constant movement/use/pressure for many miles. I don't care how much oil is moving around, that throwout bearing will not hold up to pressure and rotation while towing for any appreciable distance. I also don't like the extended rearward thrust the throwout bearing applies to the crakshaft rear main bearing while running in neutral. If you decide to do this anyway, consider that you shouldn't tow any faster than you would normally drive the T unless you want to risk blowing up your transmission drums. So, if that's the case, what's the point of flat towing anyway?

It's just not a good idea...

[Humblej]

Flat tow with the engine running...must be a southern thing. Up north when we want to move a model T while the engine is running, we just drive it.

[Erik Johnson]

Early days of chasing down Model T Fords:

In 1952, my father assisted the late Royce D. Peterson with flat-towing a 1917 roadster from Hastings, MN to Minneapolis, a distance of over 30 miles. (Royce D.'s son Royce N. still owns the roadster - he's posted photos of it in the past.)

According to my father, they removed the sparkplugs, put some oil in the cylinders and left it in high gear.

Around that same period, my dad borrowed Royce's tow bar and flat-towed a dilapidated 1913 touring 40 miles from a farm in Waldorf, MN to St. Peter, MN where he was attending college. Same method as above. Once he got the '13 up and running, he drove it home, over 60 miles from St. Peter to Minneapolis.

[kmatt2]

A older Model T friend of mine, back when I was in my early twenties , told me that in 1955 he and his dad flat towed with the spark plugs out and the car in high gear, his first Model T, a 1920 Coupe , from Gorman at the top of the Grape Vine back to Hanford California with a early 1950’s pickup truck at around 35-40 mph . They used a tow bar and had to tie the steering wheel with the wheels pointed straight ahead but did not have any problems , the traffic was a lot lighter back in 1955. That is about 130 miles and I am guessing that they used Highway 43 along the AT & SF railroad north of Bakersfield.

[varmint]

Curious, this throw out bearing thing...and neutral...how exactly are the comments thinking that the car will be in neutral? Because I know of two ways. 1) There's holding in the clutch at a sweat spot and 2) there is the hand lever straight up.

[Scott_Conger]

People are thinking the car is being towed in neutral because that is the specific question you asked!

and, if I was in the car holding it in neutral while it was towed, there would definitely be a sweat spot...a really big one.

Well, at least it would be wet.

[varmint]

We were three blocks away when a fuse blew. It turns out that the fuse was underrated and the problem was solved. But I towed it back the three blocks via a long strap and my wife steered it. This could possibly be a reason I would want to tow it in the future and now I have a better way.

Later, we were three miles away and the freeze plug blew and did not tow it with a strap but we paid $225 for a tow truck. This could possibly be a reason I would want to tow it in the future and now I have a better way.

Scott, thanks but this is specifically what I asked:

how exactly are the comments thinking that the car will be in neutral?...

Allow me to ask it another way. Is there any difference with regards to the throwout bearing whether the trans is in neutral because of the clutch position OR hand lever straight up?

[Scott_Conger]

Can't we flat tow the Model T in neutral with the engine running?

THAT was the question you originally asked and THAT is why folks are answering with respect to "neutral"...

you have now asked ANOTHER question...

and regardless of how you ask the question, towing the car in neutral is a really bad, poor, no-good, nyet, nada, mauvaise, and otherwise generally awful idea.

You've been offered alternatives to that plan, by people who by and large know what they're doing - and since you frequent the forum, you probably have a pretty good idea of who to listen to and who to ignore...it seems as if you have chosen the "ignore" button and I cannot quite fathom why that is.

You've already decided that in the future, if needed, you're going to a: flat tow the car, and b. you're going to pull it with some improvised device used nowhere else in history that has every potential to add to the damage of your car. Honestly, I think you'll get a lot of encouragement and cheering approval from the experts on FaceBook, so you might seek encouragement there if you're not finding it here.

[Norman Kling]

It is a good idea to go down a hill in the same gear you go up. So if you have Ruckstell and the car will pull the hill in Ford high Ruckstell low, go doen the hill in the same hear. If no Ruckstell and you go up in Ford low, go down in Ford low. This will save the brake band and drum in the transmission.
Norm

[varmint]

Yes, have frequented the forum for these nine years. What can I say, I'm naive, take people at face value; I have listened to two polarized sides of this argument for a long time. I believe you, that you are telling the truth. I also believe what other are saying and consider that they are not lying to me. So, what do I do? My conclusion is that there must be some hidden knowledge that is not yet shared to explain how both can be true at the same time. The other option is that a large group of people are either mistaken or lying and they have not yet been convinced themselves that they are wrong either. Right now I am operating on the existence of hidden knowledge.

I've used this illustration decades ago (I used black, white, and grey back then.) From a distance, there is a floor, green and red portions. The green you may step on, the red you may not. Enter the brown section of floor, which is red and green mixed. Some say you may not step on the brown because it has red in it. Upon closer inspection of the brown, you find that there is no brown, just tiles of red and green next to each other. I believe there is some hidden knowledge in this brown (grey) area.

[brendan.hoban]

I purchased my first T from two teachers in Ballarat. They had brought the car from a local farmer who delivered it using a Y bar to the front axel.

They could start the engine but couldn't get it to move and admitted this to me at the time. "It just stood there and shook but wouldn't go."

I trailered it home and restored the keys to the back axles, it drove just fine for me!

[PorkChops]

So, assuming you have survived crossing the multi-coloured floor, is the consensus that if the engine won’t run, then the preferred way to tow is with the hand-brake lever forward and clutch engaged, with the spark plugs removed?

(Presumably, if the engine will run and the car is in a condition to be towed anyway, then as Humblej said above, it seems to make sense just to drive it.)

[varmint]

Here is my improvised device that I bought a week ago:

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It does not include the required chains but I found the U-bolts, hooks, and chains at a Tractor Supply store. The included instructions state that if the supplied 1/2" bolts are not long enough, that they can be replaced. I replaced them.

Brendan, Are you saying that the farmer flat towed the vehicle with the spark plugs in place and that resulted in the keys sheering all the way through?

farmer who delivered it using a Y bar

Last month, I came upon a traffic signal that turned red at the worst time in a 35mph zone. I could not stop the T quick enough with the foot brake. So, I reached for the hand lever and screeched the car to a stop. But, I'm told that I am not supposed to stop the T with the e-brake. Across metro where I need to go is 15 miles of either 1) stop lights or 2) the I-10 Interstate. This could possibly be a reason I would want to tow it in the future and now I have a better way. Even if I could afford a tandem flatbed trailer, the speed should be limited to protect the external visor and vinyl top.

[Scott_Conger]

The "hidden knowledge" is that people who have flat towed a T either put it in gear and removed the plugs and drove very slowly so as to not skid the rear tires while attempting to get the heavy transmission/engine up to speed with the drive line, OR they had an auxiliary transmission that had a neutral which will fully disconnect the driveshaft from the transmission.

Any expert who has suggested you tow in "neutral" (which does not truly exist in a "T") either is totally ignorant of how a "T" transmission functions or simply has evil intentions. Either way, those folks are doing you no favors.

With the "T" in "neutral", the main portion of the transmission will not rotate and thus will sling no oil. The brake drum will be spinning with the drive shaft, will be totally unlubricated and now the brake/backingplate bushings will be spinning totally dry, the throw-out bearing will be running totally dry, the clutch plates will be running totally dry, and with enough time, things will pretty much seize up. And it won't be much time.

When people say "well, Royce's dad did thus-and-so, towing a T", understand that Royce's dad KNEW how to flat tow a T because he was a T-trained mechanic from the day they were still on the road - and you can darn sure bet it wasn't in "neutral".

Finally, with an improved "T" restored and in fresh condition, you have lined parking brake shoes and if someone says never use parking brake in an emergency they damn sure don't know what they're talking about. It's very bad practice to use it all the time, but if faced with a certain emergency, there is no harm or shame in grabbing the handle. BTW, you will learn very soon that you drive a "T with your eyes FAR down the road and plan your traffic lights. Cars and stupid people will still surprise you but a functioning traffic light really shouldn't (there's never been one that failed to go "RED" on a very regular and predictable basis yet)

[TXGOAT2]

To further flog the horse:
I would not flat tow a T unless in an extreme emergency. The only correct way to flat tow a Model T is to remove the spark plugs and put the lever all the way forward. If you tow with a tow bar, Do NOT back up!
The model T transmission has no neutral, unlike most transmissions. "Neutral" is obtained in the T by holding the clutch out of engagement, either with the foot pedal or the hand lever. Both methods do the same thing, which is to hold the clutch spring back from pressing on the clutch discs. Since the clutch driven side turns whenever the car is moving and the clutch linkage is not, a bearing has to be provided. On a Model T, this is a bronze fork that engages a groove. It is not intended for continuous duty. It is normally not under any pressure when the car is running. It is under considerable pressure whenever the clutch is disengaged, which is normally not for any extended period of time, and normally the engine would be running during that time and circulating oil to moving parts. When towing the car with the engine stopped, no oil is being circulated, which exposes the transmission parts AND the throwout fork to lack of lubrication if the car is towed with the clutch held out of engagement. The solution is to tow the car, if you must flat tow it, with the spark plugs out and the lever forward, and never try to back up when flat towing a T.....
Another problem with flat towing a Model T is that there is a possibility of the front wheels turning all the way to the left or right, which would be problematical. If you were to back up a T being flat towed, the front wheels would most likely slam all the way to the left or right extreme and remain there, which could cause a lot of problems.

[TXGOAT2]

It is not a good practice to hold any automotive clutch out of engagement any longer than necessary. Throwout bearings have limited lubrication and are hard to access, and the less time you spend with your foot on the clutch pedal the better.
With the exception of certain industrial clutches, such as the Twin Disc units, the throwout bearings are a limited duty cycle item.

[TXGOAT2]

If you have a bad engine bearing, seized engine, or serious transmission or rear axle issue, there is no good way to flat tow a Model T. It might be possible to use one of the rental tow dollies under the rear wheels, but if you do that, make sure the steering wheel is securely tied, and I mean SECURELY, and keep speeds low.

[speedytinc]

If you have a bad engine bearing, seized engine, or serious transmission or rear axle issue, there is no good way to flat tow a Model T. It might be possible to use one of the rental tow dollies under the rear wheels, but if you do that, make sure the steering wheel is securely tied, and I mean SECURELY, and keep speeds low.

You cant tow a T backwards on a dolly either. That will tighten & lock the front outer bearings, destroying the hubs.
There are many ways to further damage your T towing it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Probably 50 years ago, my dad and I took off on a short trip in our '25 Touring. We came to a stop sign, dad stopped the car with no issues, he then pushed in the clutch and... nothing. The car wouldn't move. He got a ride back home, picked up his clamp-on tow bar, (complete with steering attachment), and flat towed it home. He figured no problem, since the rear end obviously had no connection to the transmission. When we got home, he noticed a nice big hole on the side of the rear axle housing, where the pinion gear exited. Turns out that the pinion gear had split in half and sometime during the tow, a hunk of it got lodged between "this & that" and got pushed through the housing. A flat towing story... fwiw.

[speedytinc]

Flat towing in neutral.
Scott is right on about the bushings running dry, & quickley. The most @ risk bushings are that of the triple gears. The gears will be spinning very fast, faster than normal @ tow speeds & likely seize up first. Melt the pins, possibly shear. Steel clutch disks still have friction & will be dry quickly. They get hot, blue & try to fuse together. That $225 tow looks like a great deal now!
The flywheel MUST be spinning to keep these bushings lubricated. Towed with the plugs out works. (if there are no internal motor issues)

It is possible to seize triple gears in neutral, reverse or low gear with the engine running, if tight, as in a fresh rebuild. Those 3 conditions involve the triple gears. High does not. For this reason I encourage fresh motor startups to run a while in high gear with a wheel off the ground for some break in & well lubricate inner bushings.

Those that suggest towing in neutral dont understand how a T planetary transmission works. There is no real "clutch" as in later automobiles.
" I towed my xxxxx that way with no problems"

[TXGOAT2]

Looks like a tilt trailer or ramp trailer would be needed if you have driveline issues. All the more reason to park your T legally and make every reasonable effort to avoid trouble on the road.
Many later model automatic transmission vehicles have restrictions on towing with the wheels on the ground, and modern vehicles have no real bumpers, either. That includes most pickups.

[TXGOAT2]

I thought the triple gears stayed still with all the bands released, such as when running in high, or towing in high. (?)

[speedytinc]

I thought the triple gears stayed still with all the bands released, such as when running in high, or towing in high. (?)

True.
In high gear the triple gears are moving fixed on the flywheel, with the flywheel, not individually spinning as in engaged.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd want to use a lightweight, high grade oil with new triple gear bushings, and avoid running hard, fast, or far in low or reverse. A light bodied oil would have the best chance of reaching the triple gear bushings, and letting the engine warm up in cool weather before using low or reverse would be wise. I'd think a dragging band could cause the triple gears to spin very fast, even in high gear.

[brendan.hoban]

The farmer removed the keys so the wheels would turn on the axels without turning the tail shaft or the drums in the transmission. The nuts were pinned but not tight.

It was a way of towing Ts in the old days without causing problems.

[TXGOAT2]

I wouldn't go far or fast doing that, and I'd grease the axles and hubs beforehand. I'm guessing that farmer pulled his T with a mule.

An "emergency axle" accessory was once available. It clamped to the axle housing and provided a spindle to put the wheel on.