History of the Holley Model S?

[NealW]

Last year I bought a very original early model year 1914 touring that has a late November 1913 engine. It has some transition parts like a two piece driveshaft and likely the original carburetor that was used for the 1913 model year, a Holley S. The car was in running condition when I got it, but for some reason, I really had a hard time getting the car to start (by hand since no starter), whether cold, hot, on battery or magneto. I decided that I preferred driving rather than cranking, so I installed a spare Holley G on the car. Problem solved, for me at least. Now the car would easily start on magneto whether hot or cold, and also ran well.

Anyway the Holley S will likely end up on a shelf, but I was trying to do some research on the Holley S. Based on the late Stan Howe's comments in the forum link below, it was only used for a short time. It appears that it could have been Holley's attempt to get cost out of the carb but perhaps it didn't work out so well, leading to the larger and likely more expensive Holley G which does work very well and was in production for several years until Holley did come out with the lower cost and very good performing Holley NH.

I was curious if anyone knows anything about this short lived version of the Holley carb, and/or have any experience in using one?

Thanks, Neal

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1449696215

[TXGOAT2]

I have no experience specifically with the Model S, but a low float level could contribute to hard starting. It may be that the Model S requires opening the main jet adjustment more than the later models do to get a rich enough starting mixture. A choke that does not fully close can cause starting issues with any carb.

[Rich P. Bingham]

My 1913 runabout was fitted with an “S” when I bought it nine years ago. Opposite of your experience, it was very sensitive to flooding. The previous owner cautioned me to halt the engine by “starving” the mixture needle, and not to give more than two pulls on the crank when choking cold. The time or two I failed to heed his directions I had trouble starting, both restarting hot, and starting up when cold.

Lacking any specs or lore on its care and feeding, I soon retired it and have been running a “G” ever since. I always had good results from a “G” on my other Ts, and I feel I understand them a little better. As Stan noted in that link, the “S” and the “G” are very similar in design.

[speedytinc]

If similar to a G, set/check the fuel level as you would a G. Fuel level with the top removed. Its Fool proof to get a perfect fuel level setting.
As long as the idle circuit is not plugged, it ought ta work.

[NealW]

Opposite of your experience, it was very sensitive to flooding. The previous owner cautioned me to halt the engine by “starving” the mixture needle, and not to give more than two pulls on the crank when choking cold. The time or two I failed to heed his directions I had trouble starting, both restarting hot, and starting up when cold.

Lacking any specs or lore on its care and feeding, I soon retired it and have been running a “G” ever since. I always had good results from a “G” on my other Ts, and I feel I understand them a little better. As Stan noted in that link, the “S” and the “G” are very similar in design.

This is not opposite of my limited experience with the "S", but my experience too.

Most of my T experience is with a Holley G on our former 15 car, and the Holley H1 on our 1911. Both behave similarly that they start and run well, but can flood if not careful. I still have to think if Ford and Holley thought the S was a great design, they wouldn't have replaced it so quickly.

[NealW]

deleted duplicate response

[TXGOAT2]

Flooding may be related to float level or to issues with the float, needle and seat. Beyond that, fuel systems seem to create debris out of thin air, and dirt in the fuel is always a suspect when excess fuel issues arise. Did Holley continue to make the Model S after Ford moved on? Ford required huge volumes of carburetors at low cost, with no availability issues.

[Rich P. Bingham]

. . . Did Holley continue to make the Model S after Ford moved on? . . .

Not to my knowledge. The 1913 model year was the only application, and they are rare today - as Stan said, “made of unobtanium.”

[NealW]

Rich,

Did the Holley S that you removed have the body painted black? Stan's pictures of the S he rebuilt had no paint on the carb body, but the one that I have appears to have been painted black, or is REALLY tarnished.

[Corey Walker]

In my experience those run very well but don’t seem to have as much top end speed. I had one on my 14 several years ago when the temperature here in East Texas got down to -2 degrees and I went out and started it on mag and did a spin around the yard. I also have one on my 21 because I like them.
They are like a mini/simplified Holley H1 or G. The G is just an H1 with a simplified float valve which started with the S. The H1 and S both have non-removable seats but the S eliminates the complicated arrangement. The idle circuit operates through the same principle but without the little fitting screwed into the body and nut/flare on the pickup tube. You have to use the correct thickness of gasket so the holes in the body casting and mixing chamber cover align so the correct amount of gas can flow through. The H1 and G use the same pot metal venturi, whereas the S uses one of spun brass. The S however doesn’t have a removable spray nozzle. There is a pot metal guide for the spray needle which sometimes I’ve found broken. It’s not made to be removable, is swaged in, a new one can be made from a piece of tubing and a fender washer.
It probably was short lived because of the lower top end performance and it took an extra step and skilled worker to solder the idle pickup tube to the mixing chamber cover.
So they went back to the H1 design but kept the much improved float valve design for the G, plus made the seat for the needle replaceable.

[Corey Walker]

Some of them have a choked down fuel inlet area, as do some G’s. Doesn’t make much difference that I can tell.

[Dan Hatch]

What has anyone done about the float valve?
The one on my 13 has a Gross jet and we all know how that is.
I know it’s not spelled that way but this #*%# phone keeps changing it.
Another question, is there a metal float that can work in one? Dan

[Dan Hatch]

What has anyone done about the float valve?
The one on my 13 has a Gross jet and we all know how that is.
I know it’s not spelled that way but this #*%# phone keeps changing it.
Another question, is there a metal float that can work in one? Dan

[NealW]

In my experience those run very well but don’t seem to have as much top end speed.

Thanks Corey for the information and pictures about the S carburetor! The Holley G carb that I replaced the S with is one that Corey refurbished.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Neal, there was no indication the carb had been painted. Brass will tarnish near black in time though !

Corey, thank you for the additional information on the S !

Dan, I have two “S” carbs, the one that was on my car has the original cork float with a failed gas tank liner coating, the other has a metal float, possibly from an NH, but it is bulkier than the original cork, and not a good fit. I don’t know if it was functional. A friend who lost his ‘13 in a fire gave it to me.

FWIW, the replacement float sold by vendors for the “G” carb is not a closed cell synthetic and will eventually “waterlog” and sink. I got a piece of actual closed cell material for float replacement from a fellow in Ohio who restores tractors. I’ll see if I can locate his contact information if nyone is interested.