Balancing beads

[Tmooreheadf]

I’m contemplating putting beads in some new tires. My question is, do I bubble balance the mounted tires before putting the beads in, or just add beads only? Never have used the beads before but a good buddy insists they are the cats meow!
Thanks
And happy holidays!

[Steve1920]

I've installed them on two 30 x 3 1/2 equipped T's, with no other balancing done, and was very pleased with the results. And I will be doing a third one this spring. A little tricky getting them in there but you'll be happy with them.

Steve

[TXGOAT2]

My car has balancing beads and they seem to perform very well on good roads or on bad ones at speeds up to 50 MPH. I have a '27 roadster on Ford wire wheels with 4.40/4.50/21 Lucas tires. I have not run this car without balance beads, but I can say it performs very well with them. If you have access to a good bubble balancer, I'd use it first to check for any unusual conditions. If the assembly shows a serious imbalance, I'd want to check that the tire was seated properly and that any demountable rims were aligned so as to run as true as possible. I'd then install the beads. If you put the beads in first, you probably could not use the bubble balancer, since the loose beads would make it difficult to impossible to get a meaningful reading. When checking tire pressure with the beads installed, I always put a short shot of compressed air into the tire to make sure the stem is clear of beads or other loose material, then I apply the gauge.

[Tmooreheadf]

Thanks for the responses!

[Allan]

In 65 years of T ownership of multiple Ts I have had cars with Hayes wire wheels, Ford wire wheels, 23" wooden wheels, both non demountables and demountables, 21" split rims and all manner of tyres to suit. Never have I used balance beads, nor had the need for them. Perhaps it is the staid 35 MPH speeds I drive at, on less than perfect blacktop roads.

Allan from down under, where we drive on the left side of the road, or these days, on what is left of the road.

[Bills Auto Works]

Definitely a YES on "CounterAct Balancing Beads" & No other balancing required.

I have them in every collector car, transport trucks & both trailers. They extend the life of the tires noticeably by keeping the tire balanced throughout its life. Weigh balancing is only perfect until the tire starts wearing & the more it wears the more it is out of balance.

Here is a helpful calculator to estimate the ounces required.

https://www.counteractbalancing.com/app ... alculator/

God Bless & Merry Christmas
Bill
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... ed.614419/

[TXGOAT2]

My car had near-new tires on it with balance beads when I got it, and I've worn two of them to the cord and worn most of the tread off two others. I limit road speeds to about 45 MPH.

[Bryant]

Tom
Did you have balance issues with your current tires? or just pondering the thought for the new tires?
I like beads. we put them in all kinds of farm wheels around here and they have proven to work
every tire construction can be different, we have also not needed them on somethings,
provided it's not the other countless issues one could have to make things feel unbalanced.

Bryant

[Shrshot]

I have only tried Balance Beads once, and I'll never use them again. I put them in the new tires (Coopers) on my 1500 Ram P/U. Once it reached a speed of 40 mph or faster, they were great! But every time I would stop, the beads would all settle in the bottom of the tire. When I'd start going again the truck would shake like crazy, until the centrifugal force sent them to the high spots in the tires. (about 40 mph or so) After two weeks I took them out and spun balanced & weighted the wheels like normal. This was 7 years ago, now the tires are about 1/2 tread and worn even. (43,000 miles)

[TXGOAT2]

Did you use the correct amount for the application? Did your tires have any moisture or tire sealant in them?

[Bills Auto Works]

Did you use the correct amount for the application? Did your tires have any moisture or tire sealant in them?

I thought the same thing Pat,

If the proper amount is used & the inside of the tire is dry, they balance at 20-22 MPH.

Hope to get to see you again this coming year.

God Bless & Merry Christmas
Bill
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... ed.614419/

[Craig Leach]

Absolutely do not think if a little is good more is better when it come to balance beads! IT IS NOT!!! Know someone!
Craig.

[Tmooreheadf]

I’ve got new tires and this will be the first time to use beads. Haven’t mounted them yet! Based on a buddies experience, just thought I’d try them!

[TXGOAT2]

One source does not recommend balance beads for typical modern passenger car tires, citing the irregular inside surface of such tires. That ought not be a problem with any tube type tire.

[mbowen]

I’ve got new tires and this will be the first time to use beads. Haven’t mounted them yet! Based on a buddies experience, just thought I’d try them!

Personally, I’d drive it with the new tires before adding the beads; you may or may not actually need them. I’ve had my wood spoke ‘24 touring with demountable rims and no beads up to 45 mph with no balance issues.

[Dan Hatch]

Doesn’t the high quality sealant do the same thing as beads?
Plus it will seal up a leak.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Let me preface this by saying we have been a DynaBead dealer for about 20-ish years and we have been installing them on customer's vehicles for a long, long time because they work.

As Bill and others stated above, static beads are very sensitive to the proper amount of beads being installed. Too few, -or too many just is not effective (i.e.: You must follow directions!). As for the statement about drive them first to see if they are needed, -or the beads are only effective at higher speeds, please allow me to suggest some facts about these, and the use of them.

Begin by considering this. A perfectly balanced tire/wheel package that is driven any length of time generally will pick up stones or debris in the tread that immediately creates an imbalance. While I will be the first to admit that some Model-T vehicles have such poor wheels and suspension that any type of balance likely would go unnoticed ...however by design, the Beads automatically move to compensate for any new imbalance. During driving, a tire also changes shape due to sidewall flex or bumps where the Beads inside will quickly change location to compensate. So in reality, just because you do not initially feel the need does not mean they won't make a difference just a few miles down the road.

As for those who feel the Beads are not effective at slow(er) speeds, consider this. The ceramic beads generate static electricity as they rub against each other, and by the friction as they rub the tube's rubber during the wheel's rotation. This static electricity allows them to float randomly however it does not take very much centrifugal force during the wheel's rotation to overcome those static electricity forces. Pick a random RPM speed of a wheel, and then give us an opinion on how much rotational speed you would guess it would take for the weight of that ceramic bead to overcome the static electricity? (HINT: It isn't much!!). To illustrate this, a 30x3" front tire travels approximately 95" to make one revolution. At 5 miles per hour, it will make about 8 revolutions per minute. That speed is enough to generate enough centrifugal force to allow the beads to work. So how many here can detect a tire/wheel imbalance on their T at that speed by the seat of their pants?

One other point regarding installation of the beads. With the Valve Stem Core removed, we place the proper amount of beads into a plastic bottle and insert a plastic tube over the Valve Stem and the tip of the bottle. With the Valve Stem location placed at the bottom where gravity aids in the installation, we use an electric engraving pencil placed against the side of the Valve Stem where the vibration of the engraver allows the beads to flow. A typical Model-T or Model-A tube can have all of the beads installed in under 30 seconds.

Doesn’t the high quality sealant do the same thing as beads?
Plus it will seal up a leak.

Actually Dan, ...the sealant does just the opposite. Additionally, I was unaware that any type of sealant was effective in a Model-T tube.

[Dan Hatch]

Quick bing search found this.

PRODUCTS
SELF BALANCING TIRE FOR LIFE!

The Ride-On Tire Protection System (Ride-On TPS) is a revolutionary line of tire sealants that prevent flat tires,seal leaks and punctures, balance tire/wheel assemblies for the life of the tire, extend tire life and reduce downtime associated with tire failures.

40 years ago when my wife was in tire business, there was a product with Kevlar in it for sealing tires. One of its statements was it balanced tires as well as stopping leaks. It stopped a leak in a 30x3.5 on my Roadster. I couldn’t find that leak to save my life.

Now I am not talking about Walmart green slime, this is much higher quality than that. Dan

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Honestly I'm with Allan and Shrshot as in I don't believe the hype. First off if you're installing new tires you should definitely drive them first as any balancing might not be necessary. I class beads right up there with the Marvel Mystery guys. They'll swear it does this and that (usually it was Grand Pop talking), but there's no proof that it does anything except thin the oil already in the engine or blows smoke out the tail pipe if dumped in the fuel tank. Beads are the same thing to me. They settle to the bottom when stopped and HAVE to throw any balancing off when starting. They simply have too. Nothing else is possible. I've been in the trade for decades and spin balanced hundreds of tires and came across 2 odd situations where the tire couldn't be balanced. One was full of water (probably the remains of a sealant) and the other was full of minute rubber like beads. We thought at the time the beads were caused by rubber flaking off the inside of the tire and picking up more bits of rubber as they spun inside the tire. Like a snowball rolling down a hill getting larger as it goes. I now believe they were actually these beads. These 2 tires COULD NOT be spun balanced until they were broken down and the debris removed. They then balanced perfectly. Some of Brents explanations are oddly fascinating by the way. What I'm reading here is the usual "I spend my dough and I'm sticking by it".

[TXGOAT2]

My experience with semi-liquid tire sealants in tube-type tires is generally poor. I've found it useful in ATV-type tubeless tires, although it seems to lose effectiveness in about a year. I've used it with good results in LT tubeless tires that are worn to 30% of the tread or less. These tires often develop slow leaks, and with the cost of having them patched being so high, using the goop is usually the better choice. It also seems to lose effectiveness in about a year, and prolonged wet weather may allow leaks to re-develop.

It seems from what I've read that balance beads must be used as directed, and that they work best in larger diameter, tube-type tires, such as are found on many pre-WWII cars, and HD oversized pickup and OTR truck tires.

[TXGOAT2]

Marvel Mystery Oil is an excellent product with several uses in crankcases and fuel systems.

Balancing beads are NOT MADE OF RUBBER. As soon as a wheel begins to revolve, the beads are distributed around the ID of the tire, and balancing effects take place at about 20+ MPH.

Water in tires typically comes from water in compressed air systems. It has nothing to do with balance beads.

If a liquid sealant product is allowed to dry out inside a tire, it could clump up and cause imbalance. That will not occur under proper conditions of use.

I have found BB-sized rubber balls inside of old tires. I'm not sure where they come from. They may result from running a tube type tire under low pressure, or running a tubeless tire nearly flat or on a rim that is not correct for the tire.

[TXGOAT2]

Small rubber balls, about BB size or under, found inside a tire may come from rubber dust/particles created when buffing a tire puncture prior to applying glue and a patch. I've seen shop operators ignore the rubber dust, and some swipe at it with a dirty shop rag, and some blow it out with an air gun or use a vacuum to remove it.

[Bryant]

https://youtu.be/UZQXPLfOPXc?si=gx-KHtq3oTf9e-SC

For fun!
a go pro inside of a tire with balance beads. see how they work

Bryant

[Scott_Conger]

Here is the science:

Critical Speed - all unbalanced rotating members (rotors) have a speed at which the vibration is at it's maximum - this is Critical Speed for this particular part, or the speed at which a member resonates at one of the rotor's natural frequencies

vibration is the difference (or displacement) between its center of mass (inertia axis) and its geometric axis (center of rotation).

interestingly, the actual ANGLE of the displacement relative to the actual heavy spot, lags the actual heavy spot by some angle or degrees, increasing in lag up to critical speed at which point the physical displacement (oscillation) lags the heavy spot by exactly 180 degrees (!) This centrifugal force which is trying to distort the center of mass away from the center of rotation at critical speed actually results in the LIGHT spot of the rotor moving away from the center of rotation. The heavy spot remains the heavy spot, of course, but the physical movement of the rotor does not remain with the heavy spot, and that is the entire premise of the use of balance beads.

Because Dyna Beads or any other brand of balance bead are very tiny, very dense objects, they will be "slung" toward the area which is being distorted away from the center of rotation and as the speed of the rotor is increased that distortion slowly lags the heavy area until such time as the rotor reaches critical speed and the beads are now congregating entirely at the angle of greatest oscillation which also now happens to be the "light" side of the rotor (tire). "Light" or "heavy" be damned, the beads do not care - they go to the location of greatest centrifugal force, which is as mentioned, at Critical Speed, is the actual "light" side of the tire. As the beads congregate at the location of greatest excursion from center of rotation, their combined weight on the light side of the tire counteracts the effect of the heavy side of the tire and the center of mass now rotates perfectly around the center of rotation. Once this happens, the excess remaining beads freely sling around the outer circumference of the tire where they do no good, nor any harm. However, if there are too few beads, they will never make up for the unbalance and if there are too many beads the remainder will randomly disburse and congregate hither and thither causing unbalance to occur at various locations within the tire. This is why you follow directions supplied by the manufacturer of the beads and not try to make up your own rules of physics.

Generally speaking, any foreign object allowed to float freely within a tire, whether it be water, rubber debris or anything else, given sufficient volume/mass, will render a tire which defies balancing by any method due to random and unpredictable movement and/or congregation of such material. By their design, however, balance beads are neither random nor unpredictable in their movement and so long as the proper amount are installed and can move unimpeded by any other obstruction i.e., water, rubber debris, etc., they will aid in achieving improved balance at speed.

The above is not derived from AI, but from direct knowledge of the physics involved and applied as hands-on experience in the world of balancing rotors on gyros, accelerometers and high speed machinery. Whether a gyro in a Minuteman Missile, or a simple car tire, the physics relating to balance, oscillation and Critical Speed remain the same and are immutable, regardless of one's opinion.

[TXGOAT2]

That's the most comprehensive explanation I've yet seen.

[TXGOAT2]

"....interestingly, the actual ANGLE of the displacement (force) relative to the actual heavy spot, lags the actual heavy spot by some angle or degrees, increasing in lag up to critical speed at which point the physical displacement (oscillation) lags the heavy spot by exactly 180 degrees (!) This centrifugal force which is trying to distort the center of mass away from the center of rotation at critical speed actually results in the LIGHT spot of the rotor moving away from the center of rotation. The heavy spot remains the heavy spot, of course, but the physical movement of the rotor does not remain with the heavy spot, and that is the entire premise of the use of balance beads" (S. Conger)

!And there's the "secret"!

[Shrshot]

Did you use the correct amount for the application? Did your tires have any moisture or tire sealant in them?

Yes I did per the instructions on the box they came in. Counter Act Balance Beads correct amount (3.4oz) for 265 X 65 X R20 tire. As I wrote in my original reply, they did work once I reached about 40 mph. At slower speeds the tires shook as they weren't balanced at that speed. This was my 1st and only experience with Balance Beads.

[Scott_Conger]

Kent

I know the physics of balancing and how it applies to balance beads and the theory of how they work. I am NOT a tire professional nor an expert in Balance Bead applications, and given that the factors involved have changed, the specifics of what went wrong in your application are beyond any certain analysis at this point.

However, I can research and read Manufacturer's charts and I find the following: per multiple sources, for that size tire/rim a 1/2 ton truck would typically require 4 oz of beads and a 1 ton truck would typically require 6 oz of beads. Given this, it would seem that despite advice you received or retail packaging label, you may actually have been a little short on weight. Any other reason for your trouble would only be speculation on my part.

I would assume that the disparate amount of weight called out (4 vs 6 oz) is related to the tuning of the suspension relative to the weight of the vehicle and the stiffness of the assembly - meaning that the stiffer the rotor assembly (tire/suspension) the higher the natural frequency of the rotor and thus the higher speed necessary to attain 180 degree offset of oscillation to mass unbalance. Whether or not a little more beads would have worked for you throughout a lower speed range or not, I don't pretend to know, but the amount you did put in appears to fall below recommended standards.

Now, here is a little bit of speculation: in balancing, the best balance is attained via 2-plane balancing which is why sometimes weights are placed both on the inside and outside of a wheel...beads on the other hand, will automatically compensate at Critical Speed. Perhaps one of your wheels has/had a very small amount of runout which is fully compensated for with tire weights yet required a significant amount of centrifugal force (40MPH) to allow the beads to compensate for the runout...OK, enough with the speculation...

Hopefully this will be of some use to you - or since this is a past-tense situation for you, hopefully will be of value to someone else in the future

Post Edit: Thank you to Frank Brandi for the information on the chevron impressions on the tire interior. If the beads used were the very tiny beads that some companies market and not the larger type, then his could most certainly account for Kent's failure to balance prior to 40MPH. I was completely unaware of such things inside newer tires - as I stated earlier, I am not a tire professional and only approach the thread as someone who is intimately familiar with the theory of balancing.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

https://youtu.be/UZQXPLfOPXc?si=gx-KHtq3oTf9e-SC

For fun!
a go pro inside of a tire with balance beads. see how they work

Bryant

Oh, way to go Bryant. Here you are posting a link to some random video that corroborates the facts while potentially disrupting some of our dear member's opinions.

[TRDxB2]

In reading the manufactures site there is a disclaimer. So that may have an issue with the Cooper Tires
The also indicate the amount by tire size and truck weight from this chart https://counteractbalancing.com/wp-cont ... -truck.pdf
Tubes are smooth....

[Bryant]

Iam sure balance can work both ways beads or not.
Tom if your good friend claims they are the “cats meow” than give it a go! I would trust my good friends.
And if you do, remember to update us on how it went.

Bryant

[Tmooreheadf]

Normally I would take mounted wheels to a small local shop close by for spin balancing. I don’t ever remember having any balance issues with this procedure. Problem is, unless it’s a modern wheel that mounts easily to his spin balancer, he longer wants to mess with balancing T wheels, other than wire wheels. He used to mount tires for me for $10. He doesn’t want to do that anymore, either, even at $25 per wheel. Oh well!

[TXGOAT2]

I took a Ford wire wheel with tire to a local shop where I have bought several sets of tires to see if they would mount my new tires. Wouldn't touch them. Period.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Just watched that video. He should have run the tire with the goppro in without the beads as a test run to establish what the tires condition was and to mark the tire and rim so that the tire is reinstalled in the same approximate position. The video doesn't prove a thing because of what I just mentioned. Also it appears the beads just distribute themselves evenly through out the tire. The video shows that.

[TXGOAT2]

As a matter of fact, they do work.

[Bryant]

To be clear
The video posted was not to prove or disprove anything.
As stated it was just for fun and to see what goes on inside.
The video looked to be a “winging it” type experiment. And yes if someone wanted to take a more precise approach the results may differ.

Bryant

[Shrshot]

Kent

I know the physics of balancing and how it applies to balance beads and the theory of how they work. I am NOT a tire professional nor an expert in Balance Bead applications, and given that the factors involved have changed, the specifics of what went wrong in your application are beyond any certain analysis at this point.

However, I can research and read Manufacturer's charts and I find the following: per multiple sources, for that size tire/rim a 1/2 ton truck would typically require 4 oz of beads and a 1 ton truck would typically require 6 oz of beads. Given this, it would seem that despite advice you received or retail packaging label, you may actually have been a little short on weight. Any other reason for your trouble would only be speculation on my part.

I would assume that the disparate amount of weight called out (4 vs 6 oz) is related to the tuning of the suspension relative to the weight of the vehicle and the stiffness of the assembly - meaning that the stiffer the rotor assembly (tire/suspension) the higher the natural frequency of the rotor and thus the higher speed necessary to attain 180 degree offset of oscillation to mass unbalance. Whether or not a little more beads would have worked for you throughout a lower speed range or not, I don't pretend to know, but the amount you did put in appears to fall below recommended standards.

Now, here is a little bit of speculation: in balancing, the best balance is attained via 2-plane balancing which is why sometimes weights are placed both on the inside and outside of a wheel...beads on the other hand, will automatically compensate at Critical Speed. Perhaps one of your wheels has/had a very small amount of runout which is fully compensated for with tire weights yet required a significant amount of centrifugal force (40MPH) to allow the beads to compensate for the runout...OK, enough with the speculation...

Hopefully this will be of some use to you - or since this is a past-tense situation for you, hopefully will be of value to someone else in the future

Post Edit: Thank you to Frank Brandi for the information on the chevron impressions on the tire interior. If the beads used were the very tiny beads that some companies market and not the larger type, then his could most certainly account for Kent's failure to balance prior to 40MPH. I was completely unaware of such things inside newer tires - as I stated earlier, I am not a tire professional and only approach the thread as someone who is intimately familiar with the theory of balancing.
[/quote

[Shrshot]

Kent

I know the physics of balancing and how it applies to balance beads and the theory of how they work. I am NOT a tire professional nor an expert in Balance Bead applications, and given that the factors involved have changed, the specifics of what went wrong in your application are beyond any certain analysis at this point.

However, I can research and read Manufacturer's charts and I find the following: per multiple sources, for that size tire/rim a 1/2 ton truck would typically require 4 oz of beads and a 1 ton truck would typically require 6 oz of beads. Given this, it would seem that despite advice you received or retail packaging label, you may actually have been a little short on weight. Any other reason for your trouble would only be speculation on my part.

I would assume that the disparate amount of weight called out (4 vs 6 oz) is related to the tuning of the suspension relative to the weight of the vehicle and the stiffness of the assembly - meaning that the stiffer the rotor assembly (tire/suspension) the higher the natural frequency of the rotor and thus the higher speed necessary to attain 180 degree offset of oscillation to mass unbalance. Whether or not a little more beads would have worked for you throughout a lower speed range or not, I don't pretend to know, but the amount you did put in appears to fall below recommended standards.

Now, here is a little bit of speculation: in balancing, the best balance is attained via 2-plane balancing which is why sometimes weights are placed both on the inside and outside of a wheel...beads on the other hand, will automatically compensate at Critical Speed. Perhaps one of your wheels has/had a very small amount of runout which is fully compensated for with tire weights yet required a significant amount of centrifugal force (40MPH) to allow the beads to compensate for the runout...OK, enough with the speculation...

Hopefully this will be of some use to you - or since this is a past-tense situation for you, hopefully will be of value to someone else in the future

Post Edit: Thank you to Frank Brandi for the information on the chevron impressions on the tire interior. If the beads used were the very tiny beads that some companies market and not the larger type, then his could most certainly account for Kent's failure to balance prior to 40MPH. I was completely unaware of such things inside newer tires - as I stated earlier, I am not a tire professional and only approach the thread as someone who is intimately familiar with the theory of balancing.
[/quote

Scott This makes two of us. lol Makes a lot of sense to me now though. The info (Frank) posted looks pretty much spot on.