Thanks for everything Ma, we’ll be back!

[Dollisdad]

[Dollisdad]

[Dollisdad]

[Dollisdad]

[George House]

Is photo # 9 a ‘15 or ‘16 touring with retrofitted hood and radiator of the ‘black era’? And the 2nd to last photo of the 2 ladies in a roadster appears to be similar ?? Thanks for the photos and this puzzlement Tom.

[WayneJ]

Every now and then, someone asks for examples of period clothing worn in the Model T era. Lots of examples in this collection of period photos.

[WayneJ]

Tell me about photo 4.

[George House]

That’s about a 1907 Ford model N with a very unusual mother-in-law seat. First one I’ve seen on an N. Quite ubiquitous on the Rs and Ss. Also the poor fitting top was an accessory and thats the only N I’ve seen with landau arms. Photo #6 is another N. I think; judging by lack of runningboard in the shadow. He didn’t add the accessory headlamps, windshield OR top………

[Wayne Sheldon]

Is photo # 9 a ‘15 or ‘16 touring with retrofitted hood and radiator of the ‘black era’? And the 2nd to last photo of the 2 ladies in a roadster appears to be similar ?? Thanks for the photos and this puzzlement Tom.

Thank you for that George! I, too, spotted both of those almost instantly. While not really common, if one looks around at a lot of era photos, one can find quite a number of them showing the updated 1915/'16 cars with updated radiators and hoods to make them appear more modern. After-market sellers were offering several types of similar upgrade parts or kits even before 1915. They continued with such parts and kits through 1915 and 1916. Usually those after-market ones can be spotted by their unusual radiators or hood shapes or louvers.
When Ford's 1917 model line came about late in 1916, many more Ford owners opted to get an actual Ford radiator and hood. Although the 1915/'16 firewall and hood former didn't fit properly under the 1917 and later hood, the fit was good enough that most people updating their Fords left the 1915/'16 hood former in place. Often, IF the photo is taken from a good angle to do so, one can see the later hood sitting a bit higher than it is supposed to relative to the cowl piece.
Photo number 9 appears to be standard later Ford radiator and hood. The hood does appear to be a bit high against the cowl. Photo number 15 may be a Ford hood, or not. However, the radiator and shell appear to be something other than Ford standard issue. Whether it is an after-market radiator, or a dress-up kit over the brass radiator I cannot tell from that angle.

Now, for a bit of ironic comparison? Look at photo number 12. Another 1915/'16 on a dusty rocky mountain road. The "even folding" windshield is folded back and partway down, making it at a glance appear to be the later offset folding type. They are not typical Ford headlamps from 1912 through 1914, the bezels and lenses are too large. One can see the typical smaller gas lamp reflectors in the back of the buckets, and the chimney/bonnets reaching slightly above the headlamp rims.
So, here we have a 1915/'16 T backdated to an earlier feature!
The subject of 1915 T Fords having had acetylene headlamps has been debated for over half a century. There is evidence that there is/was one exception to the rule, in that model Ts that went straight into military service, mostly overseas, "might" have been fitted with acetylene headlamps from new. Whether from the "factory" or not is still debatable.
An unknown number of 1915 PROTOTYPES were built in mid calendar 1914. Several photos of these cars do exist. At least one of them, for awhile at least, did have acetylene headlamps on it. Again, that is an exception to the rule.
The RULE is, that NO 1915/'16 style open body model Ts were issued with acetylene headlamps.
Unofficially, and maybe against Henry's orders, there is sufficient evidence to believe that quite a number of Ford dealers were switching the electric headlamps out in exchange for gas headlamps in order to make a sale and have a happy customer. A lot of people, Ford's customers, were not ready to accept that new idea of electric lights on their automobiles. They knew gas lamps, had used them for years, and trusted their reliability. In 1915, a LOT of people were not ready to accept electric lamps on their cars.
Era photos of 1915 and later model Ts with gas headlamps are fairly rare.

[TXGOAT2]

Them durned bubs'll blow out and leave you in the dark! When they blow out ain't no way you can git 'em lit again!!

[Rajo23]

Unofficially, and maybe against Henry's orders, there is sufficient evidence to believe that quite a number of Ford dealers were switching the electric headlamps out in exchange for gas headlamps in order to make a sale and have a happy customer. A lot of people, Ford's customers, were not ready to accept that new idea of electric lights on their automobiles. They knew gas lamps, had used them for years, and trusted their reliability. In 1915, a LOT of people were not ready to accept electric lamps on their cars.
Era photos of 1915 and later model Ts with gas headlamps are fairly rare.
[/quote]

I would love to see some of this "sufficient evidence"

[hull 433]

I’ve seen at least 4-5 period photos showing retrofitted gas lamps on 1915-16s. The reason might be brightness - gas lamps can be extremely bright, which was very useful for dark country roads.

Electric lights were the standard for the automobile industry by 1913, and Ford’s late arrival to the party meant that anyone sticking with gas was in a minority.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Stan G says he has seen at least five period photos of 1915/'16 Ts with gas headlamps. That is in the same range as the era photos that I have seen of 1915/'16 model Ts so equipped. Certainly, people making that change in those days were in a very small minority. For every car so equipped that we see a photo showing that, there were probably a few dozen cars also so equipped that no such photo will ever be found. Speculation certainly, but statistically very likely. 1915/'16 (and even a few 1917s, I have seen one of those) that had the headlamps back dated in era probably numbered in the low hundreds at most. Likely less than one percent of the Ts sold during that time.
Who actually made those changes for most of those cars will likely never be known. Whether it was the Ford dealer? Or maybe the local garage mechanic? Or I imagine some of the car owners themselves? We can pretty much only wonder.

People are funny creatures. A lot of people embrace new things, technology, music, ideas. A similar lot are slow to accept such new things. And a lesser few will drag their feet kicking and yelling all the way until a "new thing" becomes mainstream. Those "lesser few" were the ones wanting to keep using acetylene headlamps for a few years longer.

After-market electric headlamps and battery boxes were being marketed for automobiles for several years before 1912 when the electric starter became a reality, making electric lamps much more practical. Also a bit unusual, however, pre1912 automobile photos showing electric (or electrified) headlamps on automobiles that would have been originally equipped with acetylene headlamps are not so rare.
Era photos of 1912 through 1914 model Ts with electric headlamps number well into the hundreds!


Almost twenty years ago, I was visiting with a longtime friend in parking lot chit-chat during a break on a local tour event. He had a nice 1915 model T touring that had acetylene headlamps on it. I had (still may have although I generally deny it?) a bit of a reputation as a "purist", and I suspect he may have been concerned about my not liking his car's headlamps. He was telling me about how he had recently bought the car, and the headlamps were on it when he got it. He was considering changing it to the "proper" era T electric headlamps, but he really liked it the way it was.
I told him then that if he liked it that way? I saw no harm in keeping it like that. I also told him that I had an era photo on my computer showing a 1915 with gas headlamps and that I knew some people did make that change in era. I also told him that anytime he wanted, I could print out a copy of that photo for him to have to show people that it did sometimes happen in the era.

[TXGOAT2]

Gas lighting was familiar to a lot of people even as late as 1915. Outside of towns and cities, many people had no contact with electric lighting. Pre-generator/starter Fords and later ones not so equipped did not have very good electric lighting.

[TXGOAT2]

When I was a kid, we had 2 gas yard lights, which were large, train station type units that could accommodate 5 or 6 mantles. My dad would put 2 or 3 mantles in them. They still gave a very bright light and they made a pleasant sound, too. They ran on free "residue" gas, which was a dry natural gas that the local gas plant sent back into the oil fields to operate the gas engines that pumped many wells at that time. When that was no longer available, we had to use "city gas" which was deemed too expensive to feed the outdoor lights. I used to see a lot of modern ornamental gas lights in people's yards. I don't see those anymore.

[TRDxB2]

Building on the left

bnbmnn.jpeg (64.69 KiB) Viewed 384 times

Constructed in 1909, the Masonic building housed Truckee’s first movie theater, The Paramount, from the 1920s to the 1930s. The lower level also housed Rossarini’s Shoe Store, the Sierra Sun, and Siegel and Owen’s Tahoe Meat Market. The upper floors contained a dance hall and the Masonic lodge meeting room.
On Nov. 30, 1993 a propane explosion that destroyed the historic three-story Masonic building, killed a construction worker, and injured seven, including a 4-year-old.

It is now known as the Porter-Simon Building. It appears that first and second floor were saved & re-architectured. The Sierra Tavern got a few more floors as well

truk 1.png (233.5 KiB) Viewed 384 times

[Rajo23]

So I am a bit confused.
From Wayne Sheldon:
"Unofficially, and maybe against Henry's orders, there is sufficient evidence to believe that quite a number of Ford dealers were switching the electric headlamps out in exchange for gas headlamps in order to make a sale and have a happy customer."

Also from Wayne Sheldon:
"Stan G says he has seen at least five period photos of 1915/'16 Ts with gas headlamps. That is in the same range as the era photos that I have seen of 1915/'16 model Ts so equipped. Certainly, people making that change in those days were in a very small minority."

So which is it? On the one hand, it is claimed, many Ford dealers were switching out headlights. On the other hand, people making the change were few in number.
Also, what evidence do you have that Ford dealers would switch out headlights?

[George House]

Respectfully speaking John; I cannot align with your confusion. The A.I. monster told me there was 7,000 Ford dealerships in the US in 1912 so we may assume that number increased over the next 3-4 years. So if Wayne states “quite a number of Ford dealers were switching the electric lamps out” and Stan “has seen at least 5 period photos of 15-16 Ts with gas headlamps”. So, “many Ford dealers” and “few in number” has to be compared to the total number of 7,000 + dealers, therefore I agree, both quotes are correct.

[Herb Iffrig]

The last photo of the Torpedo Roadster appears, or looks like a later photo by just looking at the clothes on the men in the car.
The car also is missing the horn, which is a sometimes unique part for that car. It could also be a regular 1911 horn sometimes too.

[hull 433]

That’s right. It wasn’t common, but it wasn’t unknown either.

The most common modification I see in early photos includes electrified gas lamps. Maybe 40% of early brass Fords were equipped with them, Ford dealers stocked the lamp conversation sets and of course would happily install them, since it was a profit item. Customers were happy too, since electric lights were the “thing” and genuinely convenient.

It seems odd anyone would want it the other way around. Clearly some did however, and Ford dealers were just as happy to retrofit a car as the reverse, especially if it used up old Ford stock. The people with the car earlier in this thread seem to have used lamps from another manufacturer- much bigger and conceivably brighter. Since they’re in the desert, bright acetylene light to see primitive roads in the dark would be very, very smart.

Other people, like these two in South Dakota, not only switched to gas, they electrified the sidelights!